Who DOES NOT have a problem with corrupt images...

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by hoser_d, Feb 5, 2005.

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  1. Boskey

    Boskey Registered Member

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    This was part of my test. I backed up to a USB drive, did a check image immediately and received a corrupt file message. I then removed the drive from the external enclosure and connected it as a slave on the ide ribbon and all of a sudden the corrupt file is okay. There were no other changes other than the connection and changing the drives. Since the drive received the image in good shape on the USB, I assumed the write function of the usb controller and drive were at least good. This narrows the problem to the read function of the usb enclosure controller and/or the software.

    I conducted another such test using the firewire interface and the results were the same. As the controller in the usb controller is a PL-3705 for both interfaces, it still leaves me wondering if the controller is the problem or is it the software routine. TI8 is the only program showing corrupt data, so I don't think the software can be totally ruled out at this point.
     
  2. fota

    fota Registered Member

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    OK, I've read the entire thread here.

    I believe the USB Drives (enclosures/chipsets)are the problem (they can't run stable at the multi-Gigabyte speeds and aggressive timings we set on our computers). I upgraded to the latest build yesterday but was unable to perform a complete backup without the computer locking up or a BSOD. I keep two copies of my Acronis backup files; one on a separte partition (RAID 0 array of 2-WD1200JB drives) and the other on a USB2.0 external drive WD1200JB. I backup about 82 GB of data. I managed to corrupt a system file while trying to re-register it using SFC/SCANNOW in WinXP SP2. I was forced to attempt a restore from the USB 2.0 drive. The original file was created using Acronis 6.XX (I don't have the build number at hand). No luck using the new Acronis 8 (I believe build 791) restore CD. It would not recognize my RAID 0 array (showed up as 2 disks). Using the older restore CD resulted in many Corrupt Image error messages. I've increased the speed of my processor since last restoring a large image and I believe that the processor speed, Front-Side Bus speed, aggressive memory timing, and buggy USB Controllers /enclosure chips are the problem. When I reduced front-side bus speed to 100 (reducing processor speed from 2.8 GHz to 2.1 GHz), reduced CPU to memory multiple from 4X to 3X, and disabled the Turbo mode on the 232-pin 32-bit RDRAM used on this ASUS P4T533 board. Success! I was then able to restore the 82 GB of data from the USB2.0 drive without data corruption errors. I believe the upgrade from version 6.0 was a waste of money. I find it difficult to believe that an older version of Acronis recognizes my array (onboard Promise Fastrak 133 lite controller) and the newer version 8 recognizes only 2 separate disks :-( My USB2.0 Controller is AsusTek (renamed NEC).

    Hope this helps all of you with USB Drive Image Corruption Errors

    Frank Fota
     
  3. KCXLT

    KCXLT Registered Member

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    I have to agree with David O. My system seemed to be running fine with the really occasional hiccup that I did blame on software. I tried creating images to the internal HD and all created ok, but then showed corrupt when checked. I could always create and verify and image ok using the boot cd. But after reading the posts hear I ran memtest86+ and I got lots of errors. This wasn't your cheap generic ram either. I RMA'd and got some new modules today, unfortunatly they also show errors at their rated speed(2,2,2,5). I slowed down the timing to (2.5,3,3,5) and ran memtest and there were no errors. Ran TI and created an image to the new external WD drive via Firewire within XP and then verified and it was ok. I think that is the first image I've gotten to work from within XP. So like some people are saying it might not be TI's fault.
     
  4. MEDDLER

    MEDDLER Registered Member

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    Frank Fota seems to have found a means of avoiding the corruption problem. Could you please, Frank, give a short guide to making the changes to the system which you describe. I hope I'm not asking too much.
     
  5. hgratt

    hgratt Registered Member

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    It would be interesting to know if any other imaging programs exhibit the corruption problem.

    If someone with a corruption problem, suspected of being a hardware issue (USB enclosure, etc) were to try some of the Ghost products (Ghost 9) or other products and also see the same large file corruption problem, this would indicate that these issues are hardware related and not a TI problem.

    Anyone out there who could try this?
     
  6. Detox

    Detox Retired Moderator

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    Klattu Barada - your post has been removed as this is the Acronis support forum and advertising for competitors is not allowed.
     
  7. hgratt

    hgratt Registered Member

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    Not sure why you pulled his post. I specifically asked if other software had the same corrupt file issue, as this would aid in a complete understanding of what is involved in causing this problem.

    It appears to me that all he did was answer the question in an appropriate manner with a reference to software that did not exhibit the problem.

    While I understand why it's inappropriate to market other software in this forum, it's my opinion that his post was informative and not an outright marketing pitch. While you have to draw the line somewhere, I believe deleting his post went overboard and actually inhibits obtaining a resolution to this issue.
     
  8. Mentioned this in reply to a post by TSU:
    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=367022#post367022

    Corrupt images wiped out my RAID array when I was using Acronis TI 8.0. Switched to another imaging product and haven't had a corrupt image since. I think that ATI is at least partially responsible for the corrupt images you're seeing, but I agree that hardware can also be a factor.

    Please note that the product I use now verifies images on a byte-for-byte basis.

    Post edited for "advertising"
     
  9. LowWaterMark

    LowWaterMark Administrator

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    The problem is that this same person, at least when posting using their actual member name, has been repeatedly asked not to mention competing products in this forum section.

    The name of the other imaging product that they are using will not lead to the resolution of this problem. Other substantial facts regarding how things work, issues seen and so forth, as long as it is all in proper context, is fine.
     
  10. bocsor

    bocsor Registered Member

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    Klattu Barada,
    I think your experience with ATI and alternate software has demonstrated what I've been trying to say in other posts here - that the way in which ATI performs "image checks" causes it to return a lot of spurious "corrupt image" results -ON SOME HARDWARE CONFIGURATIONS. Or ATI is in fact creating bad images on some of these hardware configurations- but not because there is always faulty hardware. In some cases the hardware is surely bad, but there are far to many cases of this happening for this to be a reasonable explanation (look at the number of visits to this thread!). Unfortunately, Acronis has not, to my knowledge, described what is being checked to yield the corrupt image messages. Knowing that would certainly help a lot of us understand what's going on with these "currupt images".

    Incidentally, is your member name from the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still"? Just curious.

    Regards
     
  11. hgratt

    hgratt Registered Member

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  12. aragon

    aragon Guest

    Hey guys, i've been tracking this thread for a while now.. I found this through my seacrh to find answers regarding this weird event..

    I too have been using TI 7 for a while and enjoyed 99% success rates in both backup and restore routines..

    however, I just recently needed to restore one of my "good" images.. an image that i've been restoring for some time now.. i was surprised to get a COrrupt Image error...

    thinking that somehow my file copy went bad (moved it to another HD) i went ahead and did a fresh install of my XP Pro. That's what i am on now..

    I've been doing incremental backups every step of my system "resetup" ... starting with basic XP with essential drivers, then some tweaks, then security (firewall, av), etc.. till i hit a bump during my setups and i needed to restore the previous image..

    To my unfortunate surprise i got the THE IMAGE ACRHIVE IS CORRUPTED error!! I then had to do my whole installation again.. after fresh xp (w/SP2) is installed - what i am corrunently on now - i did an image.. success, the app said.. but verification right after that resulted in, again, CORRUPTED IMAGE!

    I am backing up on a secondary master, maxtor 160GB HD.. Brand new! Checked for sector errors.. Clean...

    This is trully a disaster. I await to see further development of this.. if only we could pinpoint the cause..

    as for me, i have 2 suspects.. either my HD settings (UDMA, etc etc) or my overclock.. i will do some tests..
     
  13. aragon

    aragon Guest

    hey everyone!

    As previously posted, i planned to narrow down on what's causing this error - atleast in my situation....

    I removed my OC (P4 2.4Ghz @ 3.0Ghz) and returned to default memory timings.. i logged into windows and checked the last image i made..

    to my pleasant surprise, THEY WERE VERIFIED!!! :D no more corrupt issues.. i then quickly checked on the old ones i made (thought to be corrupted) and viola! No corruption errors! I am both happy, coz i feel better being able to rely on my images once again.. i feel terrible coz i wasted another day reinstalling adn reconfiguring when I DIDNT NEED TO - coz my backup was fine all along! sheesh..

    However, as i said previously, i had an old TI7 image that i've always used... and even till now they are still corrupted.. I am checking them old TI7 images with TI8, could that be the issue?

    Anyway, guys, i recommend checking your processor/ram settings.. definitely, this case of mine proves that it could have been either my OC, or RAM timings to tight for that particular OC.. For NON OVERCLOCKERS, to you guys this could mean that your RAM is bad, or something's wrong with it.. as well as it could with your processor... so check on them.. hopefully, your "corrupted images" arent corrupt afterall!

    Good luck to all and i hope this helps someone out there.. I feel your frustrations coz I to went thru hell..

    Aragon
     
  14. wdormann

    wdormann Registered Member

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    aragon:
    I'd say your case pretty much proves why overclocking is foolish! :) If your hardware isn't working reliably, you can pretty much forget about your software doing the same.

    If the memory fault occurs during the writing of the image, then it will show up as being corrupt regardless of how you set your clock speed. However, if the fault occurs during the reading, then the image may be OK and could be restored after you change back to the intended clock speed. That could explain the difference. TI7 images can be restored with TI8.

    P.S. Thanks for sharing your findings!
     
  15. Aragon

    Aragon Guest

    @wdormann

    Thanks!

    On the contrary about your OverClocking statement, my processor is a 2.4 Prescott, with 533 FSB.. it's built for 800 FSB with internal clock up to 4Ghz. And my OC @ 3.0Ghz (567 FSB) is nothing to be worried about.. The foolish overclocking is when one pushes things to insane limits.. In my case it isnt.

    However it is clear that my OC settings have somehow affected the READING part of the image.. That I have to look into further.. This is the ONLY time i was affected by my OC..

    I confirm that WRITING is ok.. I just restored an image that was previously flagged as corrupted prior to downclocking of my CPU.

    So I suggest to those who are still having problems, dont delete your images just yet.. like wdormann said, it could still be ok.. have some other PC read and verify the images..


    Thanks all.

    PS
    I booted with TI7 and my original, trust worthy images are still corrupted. i guess they "are" corrupted. :(
     
  16. Virginia Van

    Virginia Van Guest

    Is compression an issue?

    I've read all the posts on this thread and noticed only a couple of references to the amount of compression. Could this be a contributing factor? I've been using 'Normal' for CD images on a built-in laptop burner, and with the Secure Zone feature. Had a few problems but hope they are mostly due to inexperience.
     
  17. Lowell Paul

    Lowell Paul Guest

    Virginia might be onto something. Anecdotally I seem to notice problems when using the highest compression levels, and have since backed off. Even at lower levels I have had issues, such as the error: this is not a TI file - even when I had accessed the same image file 3 times prior to extract individual files (very scary). I have had problems with file corruption under many different circumstances, and now verify the image after each stage of the process (after burn to hard disk, again after burn to network storage, and after copy to DVD), yet it is still a crap shoot when I go to restore. Fortunately the software works most of the time, yet this type of software should be nearly bullet proof, 96% of the time is just not good enough. My hardware is upper middle level, brand name stuff which carry good reviews in respected magazines and web sites. My system settings are conservative, and my network is hard wired, and I don't use USB attached devices. I have been using TI since version 6, and now have the latest Version 8 build. I have used other imaging utilities and backup apps in the past, and always pray that I won't have to do a restore.

    I have worked with computer systems for over 20 years. When there is a problem the hardware people blame the software, the programmers blame the hardware, and get them both in the same room and they will blame the cables. TI has impoved with each version, and I hope that the evolution will continue towards a 100% reliable product.
     
  18. David_O

    David_O Registered Member

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    I'm pleased that my post helped you. Here’s another nugget of advice from an old pro. Many of today’s "special" low latency RAM modules are designed to operate at higher than standard voltages. For example the Corsair 2-2-2-5 ram modules that I used in my latest build are specified at 2.75 volts instead of 2.5 volts. My BIOS, however, defaults the ram voltage to 2.5 V. Hence, I got errors with Memtest86 at 2-2-2-5 until I manually upped the ram voltage in BIOS to 2.75V.

    Performing a memory test on new or suspect systems should be a matter of course. Unfortunately, as evidenced in this thread, it is not. It is simply not sufficient that a computer POSTs, boots to OS, and seems to run apps just fine. Ya gotta run a thorough memory test!

    Cheers

    David O
     
  19. David_O

    David_O Registered Member

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    No, I don't find it "incredible" at all. Quite the contrary, a user could go for months or even years using a USB drive that flips an occasional bit, and NEVER know it. The same goes for using a computer with ram that flips an occasional bit every now and then. Most users wouldn’t have a clue that their hardware was somewhat marginal. Instead, most users would simply chalk up the occasional OS crash or occasional corrupted data file to "buggy software".

    As clearly demonstrated in this thread, the first indication for many people that anything is wrong with their hardware is when a program such as ATI actually does a quality check on a large file transfer. And what's the frequent response? Blame the messenger!

    Folks, if your OS can't accurately transfer large files over your hardware then you can't expect ATI to do so. Nothing incredible about it, just fundamental systems troubleshooting.

    David O
     
  20. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    Here's a very dull and uninteresting report - I'm happy to say.

    Today I started to set up my wife's new clone PC. It's an Intel 3.2GHz Hyperthreading P4 on an Intel D915PBL motherboard with 1GB of DDR2 RAM and two 80 GB SATA drives set up as C and D with a Sony DVD writer. All BIOS settings are Default or Auto. Nothing was done to overclock or tweak the performance. I want a stable system for her.

    I first booted from the TrueImage 8 Build 800 Recovery CD and created an image of C to a Maxor 250GB drive in a USB 2.0 external enclosure. It took 4 minutes at normal compression and verified without error.

    I then installed TrueImage 8 Build 800 and created an image of C on the second internal hard drive D. It took less than 1 minute and verified without error. The previous image on the external USB drive also verified within Windows.

    After installing some software, Windows Updates and two printers on a print server, I created a third image of C again to the second hard drive. It took less than 1 minute and verified without error.

    I then burned all three images (the two on the second internal SATA hard drive and the one on the external USB 2.0 drive) to a DVD+R disk writing at 4X since that was the fastest DVD+R disk I had on hand. After writing the files, I started TrueImage and verified them on the DVD disk. All three files verified without error.

    Sometimes it all works the way it's supposed to work. Dull is beautiful! :)

    Now I have a lot of software, games, e-mail and data to load for her so she can start using it. But, I'll be making images regularly as I get it set up.
     
  21. Hoopster

    Hoopster Registered Member

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    Still Getting Corrupt Images on USB External Drive

    I posted here a while ago expressing my disappointment that images created on my external USB 2.0 drive were consistently corrupt. Many people suggested that ATI was blameless and that the problem must be my hardware. I am willing to accept that; however, there sure are a lot of people in these and other forums that must have hardware problems. Of course, that is to be expected as those with problems will complain and those with no problems are blissfully making good backup images and not sharing their joy with us :) I am jealous!

    I have tried every test listed in this thread and others on the subject. Here are the results:

    - Memtest86+ passed 20 times (about 10 hours) with no errors
    - Images created on an internal IDE drive are verified as good
    - Images created on an external USB drive are always corrupt (plugging the drive into the front case port, rear case port or a powered USB hub all results in corrupt images)
    - A good image made and verified on an internal IDE drive and copied to the USB drive becomes corrupt; the MD5 hashes are different and the ATI verification reports the previously good image as corrupt

    The chipset in my external enclosure is an ALi 5621. I understand that may be a suspect USB chipset. Maybe it is the source of the problem. I have an Asus A7N8X Deluxe MB with the nVidia nForce2 chipset. Maybe the nForce2 chipset is the problem.

    It has been suggested that I abandon the MB-based USB ports altogether and purchase and install a PCI USB card with a NEC chipset. It just rubs me wrong that I have to pay for something that I thought I purchased with the MB. Has anyone had these types of problems with an external firewire enclosure or is this just a USB problem? The last thing I want to hear is that my MB firewire chipset or the external firewire enclosure is the problem if I go that route.

    I do think Acronis should do a better job of documenting these issues even if the software is completely blameless; just a warning that external USB enclosures and certain chipsets *may* be a problem is enough. I was considering going with a SATA drive until I read in these forums that Acronis will not support nForce2 SATA. Where is that documented? It would be nice to know up front if certain hardware is definitely not supported.

    Still seeking satisfaction :(
     
  22. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    Re: Still Getting Corrupt Images on USB External Drive

    It sure looks like everything is good on your system except the USB configuration. It could be the USB host and hub on your ASUS motherboard, or it could be the drive enclosure.

    Do you know anyone with a USB 2.0 drive that you could borrow long enough to make an image and check it - especially if that borrowed drive is known to make good images. If you get a good image, your hard drive enclosure is the problem. If you get a corrupt image, it's the motherboard chips.

    If the firewire and USB chips on the motherboard are from the same supplier, which they probably are, firewire might not work. Unless you can borrow a firewire drive to test with, I'd make that a later choice.

    You can get Adaptec USB 2.0 PCI cards here (California) for about $30 or less on special. These use the NEC chipset. It sure seems like buying one and trying it would be worth while considering the value of your time, especially if you cannot borrow a good USB 2.0 drive.

    You've done all the testing you can do without changing hardware. I hope you can borrow what you need so that testing with different hardware doesn't cost you anything except the time.
     
  23. ctal

    ctal Registered Member

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    Re: Still Getting Corrupt Images on USB External Drive

    I do not yet have experience with TI, but I have extensive experience with an older version of a competitive program. I use an Asus P4C800 Deluxe motherboard, which includes a VIA firewire chip. I normally create images of my c: partition on a second internal hard drive, and then copy them to an external Fantom Drive firewire hard drive (I feel more comfortable having them stored in two places). When I connect the external firewire hard drive to the motherboard's VIA firewire port, good images on the internal drive will often (not always) become corrupted during the process of copying to the external drive.

    Some time ago I had installed a PCI-based firewire card in this computer, purchased from FirewireDirect.com, because the VIA firewire chip sometimes dropped frames during video capture (in my case, perhaps once every 10 minutes; others in various video-related forums reported that they would experience dropped frames with this same motherboard and firewire chip as often as every second). The PCI firewire card uses a Texas Instruments firewire chip, and never, ever drops a single frame.

    After I found that connecting the firewire hard drive to the motherboard's VIA chip resulted in corruption of copied images, I reconnected it to the PCI firewire port, and the problem totally disappeared. Sorry to be the bearer of what may be disappointing news.
    -- Al
     
  24. Hoopster

    Hoopster Registered Member

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    Re: Still Getting Corrupt Images on USB External Drive

    I am willing to to try the firewire port on my MB first. What have I got to lose? I have captured many, many videos with very few (if any) dropped frames. Maybe the firewire will work better. However, that means a new enclosure as my current enclosure is USB 2.0 only. No matter what I do, it means spending more money whether it is a PCI USB or firewire card or a firewire external enclosure. I do not know anyone with a USB or firewire external drive I can borrow. With my luck, I'll buy and try all three and it will be the last one that works ;)

    I already have a PCI USB 2.0 card in another computer; however, it has a VIA chipset. I doubt that's any better than what I have on the MB or in the USB enclosure.

    This whole process is frustrating, but, having a good reliable backup is worth the hassle. I just hope I can get to that point.
     
  25. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    Re: Still Getting Corrupt Images on USB External Drive

    Hi Hoopster,

    That's the right idea! You'll get there, and when you need a backup, you will have it.

    As you can see, there are quite a few of us here who want to help. I'd e-mail you a good USB 2.0 drive as an attachment if it were possible. :)
     
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