Windows 7 UAC

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by tradetime, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

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    Hi, wonder can someone help me, I have just recently got a windows 7 box and this damn UAC pop up is driving me up the wall constantly asking me if I am sure I want to lett ccleaner clean the hd. I mean wtf could they not have desiged a program that remembers what you told it last time. Surely I must be doing something wrong here?
     
  2. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    If it remembered what you told it last time it would defeat the purpose.

    If you don't like it, turn it off. You don't lose out on much if you're using a browser other than IE.
     
  3. m00nbl00d

    m00nbl00d Registered Member

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    That's not true, at all. At all.

    Anyway, tradetime, for you to constantly get UAC prompts for CCleaner, then it either means you're running in a Protected Administrator user account, or you're running as a standard user account, and you're elevating CCleaner?

    If you're running in a Protected Administrator account, you can deactivate UAC prompts for selected applications. Take a look at this link: -http://www.petri.co.il/bypass-uac-using-desktop-shortcut.htm

    Please, be aware that the above trick will only work if you are in a Protected Administrator account. It won't work from within a standard user account.

    Don't ever disable UAC. Even if you don't use Internet Explorer, if you happen to be using applications that weren't designed for Vista/7, and if those applications are 32-bit, then you'll lose UAC Virtualization, which offers compatibility for such applications.

    Disabling UAC is a very stupid thing to do, unless you got no 32-bit applications/processes running in your system and also unless you got other security measures in place.
     
  4. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    I've never even heard of incompatibility issues with UAC turned off. I get that there's the potential, but I've never seen a single application break because UAC was off. I've seen way more break with it on.
     
  5. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    I would have said it if you didn't.

    @ tradetime
    CCleaner is trying to access Admin level parts of your file system, that is why it prompts. I recommend getting used to clicking it and don't disable anything. It really isn't worth the convenience of saving an occasional click.
     
  6. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    Turning it off after having it on can cause it to lose the virtualized file system data that didn't get written to Program Files because it was previously on. I have talked to customers that were advised to by another party to turn it off because their broken software wouldn't run with it on and then the user lost many settings and program data. It was retrieved by turning it back on, but you can imagine the panic when their data was missing.

    I am trying to remember if it was Acrobat 8 or 9 that would not install with UAC off when Vista came out. It was one of the 2.
     
  7. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    I'm not saying it should be turned off... but I don't really see the big deal in turning if off if you aren't using IE.

    You lose virtualization, and if you actually had some old outdated program that happened to use it than yeah you'd have to flip the switch and turn it back on... but if you don't, I don't see the issue.

    I mean, if you really wanted to keep the virtualization you could just turn it to one setting above off.
     
  8. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

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    Thanx for the replies guys. I have come across plenty of software, firewalls, Hips etc that learn which programs are trusted to do what on the system, and don't have to be told over and over again, so I don't see how it "defeats the purpose" Much more likely to defeat the purpose when I turn the damn thing off.

    Yes Vista had a UAC, but I don't seem to have the same problems with it, can't remember the last time I had a notice, maybe I turned it off.

    As for levels, I am operating as a bog standard user, the way 7 wanted to be installed, in versions prior to Vista I always ran as an adminitrator, but not sure that is possible with the latest versions of windows.
     
  9. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    well so far you have setup windows correctly and you shouldn't disable UAC. I dont know why people find UAC annoying.
    You should only get UAC prompts under the certain conditions including but not limited to:
    installing new software
    upgrading software
    installing updates
    running system utilities such as device manager,defrag,event viewer,disk cleanup,partition manager etc.

    ccleaner falls under system utilities and thats why it needs a uac prompt and admin rights to clean up the files on the admin account.
    You can create a scheduled task to run ccleaner with system level rights which will automatically run the program and wont show a uac prompt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  10. moontan

    moontan Registered Member

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    i leave UAC at max because it's like running as a standard user without the inconveniences.

    i do not mind when UAC pops up once in a rare while for some admin tasks, like using CCleaner.
    it means it's doing its job. ;)
     
  11. TairikuOkami

    TairikuOkami Registered Member

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  12. xxJackxx

    xxJackxx Registered Member

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    If it were able to remember then someone would find a way to import an exclusion list that would make the whole thing pointless.
     
  13. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

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    Ok firstly, the use of the program ccleaner as the example might be causing a little confusion, I understand totally the view of "so what" as someone pointed out how often does it get used and is it really that big an issue. Agreed. Also bear in mind I'm still new to 7 so not fully clued on the implications of this UAC, but when it is activated it "appears to stop the PC doing anything else until it is dealt with.

    Now let me put that into context. Another program that occaisionally falls foul of it (I don't know why) is an FX trading application I run, my computers run trading applications 24 x 5 and I don't want windows going on "pause" when a trusted program irritates it, I don't have the stamina to sit in front of it 24 hrs 5 days a week.
     
  14. tradetime

    tradetime Registered Member

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    Hi dude, thanx for the reply, I am not any sort of an expert on security software, so can't defend them but surely that would make any HIPS program useless, since that's what they do, leanr what programs on your system are trusted to do what task.
     
  15. m00nbl00d

    m00nbl00d Registered Member

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    Outdated program? You got not clue of what you're saying. For instance, I'm on Windows 7 32-bit, and I use Sandboxie. Sandboxie's process SbieCtrl.exe runs virtualized.

    I guess Sandboxie is an outdated application. :rolleyes:

    Just because an application is current, it doesn't necessarily mean the whole package was done from scratch to comply with the way newer Windows versions (Vista/7/8 ) work, and therefore if the processes are 32-bit, then they will need UAC Virtualization, otherwise the application will either not work or malfunction.

    On 64-bit processes, they would simply not run. Which is why on 64-bit, developers actually need to make it work, or the applications will fail.
     
  16. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    And does Sandboxie work without UAC?
     
  17. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Nope your not doing anything wrong,and it is annoying imo.I always set mine to never notify and just use other security software for protection.There was a norton uac tool that worked on vista 32 that did remember,the good stuff,but not sure whether its still developed for windows 7 or 64 bit?.There also was a programe called smartuac that supposedly works on windows 7 32 bit ,but google search seems to show that it was very buggy.
     
  18. ellison64

    ellison64 Registered Member

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    Thats interesting.I have uac set to never notify ,which i presume means off?.I also have windows 7 64 bit ,and many of my applications are 32 bit and run just fine.Compatability mode is still there ,when accessed from properties.although I do run as administrator.
     
  19. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    It's separate from compatibility mode. I've never had a single program break because UAC was off (though I don't run with UAC off) and I've never heard of a single program breaking with it off. I'm sure there are some out there, I'm sure most of them are probably updated to work regardless of UAC. I don't see it as a big deal.
     
  20. m00nbl00d

    m00nbl00d Registered Member

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    There's your answer.

    Before Windows Vista, software developers just assumed everyone ran as administrator, and therefore things like the application's configuration, etc was all placed in locations (Program Files, for instance) where users need administrator privileges.

    This meant that, if you tried to run as a limited user in Windows XP (for example), then the application wouldn't run or would malfunction, because it could no longer access/write to such locations.

    Windows Vista changed that. With Windows Vista, Microsoft introduced UAC that, despite by default an administrator account being created, it's a Protected Administrator account, with reduced rights. This means you/applications no longer can access Program Files and Windows. They will fail to run or will malfunction.

    Which is why, Microsoft created UAC Virtualization. What this does is redirect any change attempts done to Program Files, Windows and HKLM (administrator account registry part) will be redirected to a virtualized file system and registry. This way, the applications will "think" they have rights to access the real file system and registry, while only being able to write such data in a virtualized folder/registry.
     
  21. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    But... does Sandboxie or any other modern program actually break with UAC off?

    I know Sully runs without UAC and with Sandboxie, so I'm willing to bet that at least that doesn't.

    I know of no program that does. I'm sure one exists, or used to, but I've never run into it. I've never even heard of it.

    So... assuming you're one of those users who never runs into the rare no-uac-breaking applications, what exactly does one lose by turning it off?

    And wouldn't turning it to the very lowest setting above off still give you virtualization and whatever other benefits come with UAC without the bother of hitting "yes" to everything?
     
  22. m00nbl00d

    m00nbl00d Registered Member

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    And, who the heck is arguing about UAC's alert level? I simply reacted to this statement of yours:

    This is simply not true, and that's all I pointed out. If any user wants to test if anything will break on their own system, is up to them. I just pointed that you were wrong. Nothing more than that.

    Regarding Sandboxie... Yes... Sully runs without UAC... and that means what? Full access to the file system and registry, hence applications won't stop functioning. lol

    UAC = on = least privileges mode = no access to Program Files, Windows and HKLM = apps may break, depending on whether or not they need virtualization.

    UAC = off = administrator privileges = access to Program Files, Windows and HKLM = apps won't break, because they got all the access they still need.

    Does it make sense to you now? ;)

    -edit-

    P.S: Sully runs without UAC, and as an administrator. Do you see the difference?
     
  23. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    I really don't see how I'm wrong. They looks virtualization - virtually useless function outside of fringe situations where a program both needs admin rights and hasn't been updated in 5 years and breaks in just the right way. All I Said was that they don't lose much functionality by turning it off. Considering that virtualization isn't a big deal (never have I seen or heard of an application breaking because UAC was off) I don't see this as a big loss of functionality.

    I'm saying that Sandboxie did not break. You'd mentioned that part of sandboxie runs virtualized... which means nothing because it runs just fine when it isn't virtualized.

    And if you hit "Yes" to every elevation prompt they both have access to thsoe folders/ the regsitry - the only change being that if an application is incompatible (seriously, find me one?) it won't break when UAC is on... of course you can just turn UAC to the second lowest level and maintain that virtualization without the silly popups that just about everyone hits "yes" to every time.
     
  24. m00nbl00d

    m00nbl00d Registered Member

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    Seriously, and I got no intentions of being rude, but you don't really understand it. If you did, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

    But, I'll say it once again. I'll have the following as the starting point...

    This clearly shows you got no clue about UAC Virtualization.

    OK. You brough to discussion how user Sully runs - administrator account with UAC disabled.

    Let's repeat it again: Administrator account + UAC disabled. This equals what? Yes, a full administrator account.

    That means what? Applications will have all access to what they need.

    Now, imagine that Sully would run as a standard/limited user. Sully would now run with UAC disabled and without virtualization.
    Unlike before, when applications could have full access (because they had full rights), now they no longer have full access to the resources they need.

    Not only they lack access to those resources, but now because UAC is disabled, there isn't UAC Virtualization either. That means that now, Windows won't be able to redirect the attempts to access Program Files, Windows and HKLM to the virtualized file system and registry.

    What does that mean? Well, it means that if the applications DO NEED those permissions (to write) to those locations, they will either stop working or won't work as expected.

    Whatever happens in your own system, it's not the standard everyone has to follow. You may not have any application requiring virtualization, but others maybe have. And, that's all I did - inform the user who started this thread about that factor.

    I did that, because you made a wrong affirmation. What you said isn't true, at all.

    For instance, I can also tell you that part of the software running my 3G modem also needs virtualization. Why? Even though it's a current piece of software, it wasn't made from scratch to comply with the way Windows Vista/7 operates.

    Another example, Adobe Reader (in my case version 10) writes data to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\VirtualStore\MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Adobe\Adobe ARM

    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\VirtualStore is where virtualized registry changes to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE go to.
     
  25. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    I see what you're saying, I just assume that if someone is turning UAC off they're then running as Admin, not creating a limited user account. By default if I turn UAC off now I become admin, not a limited user.

    If you create a limited user account, yes, virtualizing those "higher" areas will ensure compatibility.

    If tradetime turned his UAC off right now, would he be a limited user? I would think that he would become an admin if he went by the standard windows installation, right?

    If you are an admin the virtualization is essentially useless. If you are a limited user, it isn't. Right?
     
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