Whose STUFF IS IT?

Hm, I have to admit that I'm beginning to hesitate about how to understand that amendment in this context. Thanks Blacksheep.

 

Blacksheep: I have to respectfully disagree. As American citizens we don't check our rights in at the workplace door. We also don't check our rights in at the schoolhouse door. Some rights don't belong to employers and some to employees. The constitution applies to all, at all times and they are individual rights. The corporation, per se, has no "constitutional rights" except as individuals whether they be executives or workers.

The employer though is different in that they are in authority and therefore can en masse violate the constitutional rights of the employee. Employers (companies) are found, as are schools, in violation of the constitutional rights of employees all the time.

So Blacksheep's argument that the employer has rights at work and the employee has rights at home is way off base constitutionally. As Americans, we are protected 24/7 by the Constitution of the United States, as individual citizens of this country.

My wife could make a better argument than me on this, but the relevant parts of the constitution, I do know. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause...." Many of us feel that the Fourth Amendment applies to searches and seizures at work without probable cause and that doing so violates the right to be secure in our persons, papers and effects. Not the actual computer necessarily, but as it is being used by the employee, the writing generated on them should be a protected right from company spying.

I understand many disagree. I also know many agree and feel the power of the corporation is the real issue here. Someone said in a post earlier that what I called "Corporate Totalitarianism" isn't the issue, that it is "Whose Stuff Is It?"  The problem is "Whose Stuff Is It?" depends on how you view the corporate-employee relationship and the unreasonable searches and seizures without probable cause by the powers that be.

Final words real quick are from Andy Shen with EPIC. "Upon entering the workplace, one does not lose one's rights as a citizen," says EPIC's Shen. "Just as one expects communications to remain private at home, so they should in the workplace -- especially considering how much of the monitoring takes place without any cause or suspicion."

Amen.

Off to work. Maybe I'll check the board at lunch on my computer at work  

John

 

 

Hmm. Irreconcilable differences here, I see.

Let's see. Someone here in a previous post ( ) used (or tried to) an analogy to make their point. Let me throw out an analogy of my own.

Let's say you work for a construction company. Friday afternoon, you march up to the owner of the company and inform him that you'll be taking that D-7 Cat home with you to grade your back yard (after all, he owes you the use of that because you work for him, right?).

Or you're an airline pilot. "Think I'll take this 757 down to the Bahamas this weekend, Mr. CEO! After all, I work for you and you owe me the use of it!" (And in both analogies, let's make sure that those owners/CEO's don't ask us what we want to use that stuff for! Or where we're going with it! That would be an invasion of our privacy, wouldn't it?).

It doesn't work that way, John.

The tools ( whatever they might be ) that you are given access to at work are given to you to accomplish that work with - not for your own personal use.

Trying to drag Constitutional/Bill of Rights issues into this just won't wash!

You know, I bet if you'll check real close, you'll find somewhere in the provisions/policys of your job, that every single thing you type at work becomes their intellectual property - because you're using their property, not yours, to produce it.

I'm not going to address this anymore, because we're approaching this from opposite ends of the universe.

I'm 'old school', John - all my employer owes me is a paycheck and decent benefits (when I give them a decent weeks work, doing the actual job they're paying me for), they do not owe me the use of everything they own, whenever I want it and however I want to use it - IMO, the latter is TwilightZone thinking, at best.

But I've enjoyed the thread tremendously. It let me get a lot off my mind that I'd been thinking about for a long time.

Time for me to get back to work here. Pete

 

Just an observation:

Not that I agree with the practice, but people usually do "sign away" most of their rights when they are emplyed somewhere.. I'm not addressing the ethical issue insofar as the fact you MUST sign away to be emplyed.. :-/ But then lots of epople don't bother reading what they sign... Still... if someone signs away their rights, it was their own hand... Like I said I observe this but don't really know just what to make of it.

 

These analogies are nothing close to what I am trying to say. A better analogy using your examples would be the D7 CAT driver doing work AT WORK but stopping for a minute to turn on the radio and listen to it. (He should be working, right?) Then with your airline pilot, it's like he or she getting up during his break while he hands off to the co-pilot and walking down the aisle and picking up a Coke (really for his passengers) and placing a call to his or hers spouse from the AirPhone. That's much closer of an analogy to what we feel we should expect at work. To say the guy should be able to take the CAT home or take the 757 to the Bahamas has nothing to do with our discussion. After all, I can't remember suggesting anyone be allowed to take their computers home or anything else they use while at work.

Old school? That is ironic. I think a worker should be allowed to use tools at his disposal that he uses at work for work purposes for personal use at break or lunch. Just like workers have for years with telephones, just like they have for years with typewriters, just like they have for years with company pens and notepads. I say preserve that same thinking with the computer. You say, don't let them use it at break or lunch, and in fact, spy on them to make sure they don't! Which one of us is "old school" and which one of us is creating the new rules for the 21st century complete with Orwellian thinking? I would argue that I am old school and you are supporting new high-tech methods that George Orwell predicted in his classic book to ignore individual rights and keep an eye on all of us to protect "our larger interests."

I am disappointed that you see that as "Twilight Zone thinking." I think my position is much more old-fashioned than yours and don't understand why you would think extending the same methods of communication with the spouse, elder parents, children at home after school by themselves, etc  to the computer on your desk  is somehow "Twilight Zone thinking?" I think this has been a good discussion and have enjoyed it very much. I am not going to label your thinking as anything other than a different opinion.

That's too bad. I think diverse opinions and lively exchanges without namecalling is a good thing. As an old Poly Sci minor I can tell you that history tells us if there hadn't been discussion where the parties involved started out from "opposite ends of the Universe" civilization would not have made it this far.

If you truly think my thinking is really way out there somewhere and you don't want to discuss  this anymore because of it, I am sorry. It sounds almost as if my opinion has upset you. I have taken nothing anyone has written to me personal. I hope everyone here knows I haven't meant anything personal to anyone else either. That has impressed me about this discussion actually, it has seemed very thought provoking and thoughtful without flaming. I have found this all just good conversation about an important topic, and a very welcome diversion from my daily grind.

This new forum is so great. It is full of new features when writing and I still haven't figured out how to use half of them!

Take care,
John

 

Hi John,
If I understand you correctly, you are trying to use the constitution to justify using other people's property, i.e. the company. Sorry, I can't swallow it.

Let's try this:
Suppose you had a house cleaner who said, while cleaning your home "Oh, while I'm here working for you I'm gonna use your hair dryer, toothbrush, install some software on your computer, check my email, and call my babysitter in Chicago with your phone. And I might grab a coke from your fridge sometimes...

Now I believe that the world does not owe me a living.

Companies are owned by people. They are not public property.

 

Blacksheep: Do you really think that's what I think? After all the explaining of my position, which is shared by millions across this country? I did not say the constitution says I have a right to "use other people's property." I have said that when using a telephone or computer, that is a part of my everyday work life, it should not be subject to routine Orwellian surveillance. You guys are going waaaay out on the limb with analogies that are silly. Go back and read my posts. Pay particular attention to what some of us in the privacy movement call, "accepted cultural norms." The examples of how we all use the company phone to make a call home and how that is not a problem, and never has been,  unless it is abused. Why should we not have the right to expect as free Americans that those calls will not be subject to eavsdropping, unless it's being recorded for training and/or marketing purposes such as in a call center. That has always been acceptable, or, an "accepted cultural norm." A lot of us believe that same communication should continue with newer technology like email.

I am surprised at the "all worship at the company altar" attitude expressed by several. I'm in California and I am wondering if some of you are not from the south where labor has always been treated as property of the company, and not what makes the company. One thing that blew me away was Pete writing that he uses a payphone to call home! Pete, I don't know where you work, but if your employers have a problem with you calling home at lunchtime on the telephone from your desk, I'd find a new job. I would be insulted if my employer told me to go drop fifty cents in the payphone to call home. You ARE part of the company. You are not some kind of slave.

The short answer Blacksheep is NO I do not think the constitution allows me to "use other peoples property." But yes, I know the constitution protects me from spying, snooping, surveillance, whatever you'd like to call it, on the phones, on the computer, and with postal mail written at the company. I'm very sorry if I have not explained my position well enough that basic expectations like that are considered far out.

And I don't know what you meant by nobody oweing you a living. I don't think anybody owes me a living for sure. Not sure why that got slipped in your post to me.

My wife and I were discussing this thread and have concluded there must be some very real cultural divides on this issue and our suspicion is that a lot of it has to do with geography. Some of the patronizing talk and worshipful writing about the corporate structure is rather alien to us, but we know from visiting and study that it is very common in the south. Maybe I'm wrong about that, you could be right down the street from me I suppose, but nevertheless it sounds like the Corporate Nation has some mighty touchy spokespeople here.

I never intended to so personally offend people that words cut from whole cloth are put in my mouth. My posts on the subject speak for themselves. Every rebuttal I have on this spying issue goes without rebuttal on the merits of the argument and I am only accused of supporting what is portrayed as communism or something for thinking an employee should be allowed to email their child at home at lunchtime, just as they would phone them. I had no idea the concept could be so twisted around.

John

 

Yes please! I would also appreciate a look at those criteria - sounds like they are quite useful.

 

yeah tweak I'm still looking for those criteria too  

 

Well, it seems pure logic will not prevail due to cultural/socialist rationalizations from the left coast, so I will back out of this thread and go on to more important stuff. I've thought of late that maybe the San Andreas fault was on the wrong coast - east coast should slide into the ocean, but now I'm not so sure... Have fun Pete.

bye bye

 

Sorry, folks, didn't mean to keep you hanging. And, btw, there's no real magic. But I've started a new thread, Tweaks "virus criteria".

I'm looking forward to seeing some of yours. Maybe we can write a book. *lol*  

 

Blacksheep:

SOCIALIST logic? Bizarre. I don't quite understand how you can put the word "freedom" under your picture with your thinking.

I am amazed at the way a thread can turn so ugly in this forum. I was thinking so differently just a day ago. I went back and read this thread start to finish. There is no question the tide turned vitriolic with the post from Pete (Spy1) and his leaving the thread saying my opinion on this topic is "Twilight Zone" thinking and sounding very agitated. What's wrong with diversity of opinion?

I'm disappointed.

John

 

Hi guys, great thread. I just read it in its entirety, and I must say good points were made.

Since I am a Canadian, and I do not live in the USA I can't be sure what the work place is like down there, but I will say that around here, if a company used all the spying techniques described in this thread, they'd be hard pressed to find employees.

My last employer installed key-logging  software on the computer I use at work (not my computer) I wrote him this email:

"I will not have my every key-stoke logged. This software is a bigger security hole than you could imagine. I am an IT professional, I could disable or falsify the intent of this program in a heartbeat.  I chose not to, and to address this openly. If there is a trust issue between the two of us, or you do not feel I am preforming up to your specifications, we can discuss that. If that is not the case, I will resume work on your machine when the key-logging has been removed. If this is impossible, you will receive my 'two-week notice' by the end of the week."

His reply?

"There is no trust issue between us, I just want to be protected from potential law-suits. I am sorry I didn't discuss this before installing the software. You can remove it if you like. I do not wish for animosity between us, I enjoy our good working relationship. You do a good job and I don't want to replace you."


That is how an honest and respectful working environment operates where I live.

I will also say that being in the IT department, we usually get free reign of the stuff since the management relies on us for any of this type of information. The employer had decided that too much ability to do harm was in our control, and he, the manager felt he needed something to keep tabs on us. Unfortunately for him, his computer knowledge was not all that great, and he trusted the word of a company selling a $14.95 program that there software was "undetectable" LOL! This program emailed the key-strokes in plain text! Sys-Admin passwords! But since we do our jobs, the fire-wall blocked the program, and I was alerted. So here we have a manager putting the company at risk. It was rather comical actually.

This leads to an even more comical question faced by management: How do I fire a disgruntled IT worker with out getting our networks demolished? Any takers?


The moral of the story is: You be subjected to everything that you are willing to put up with. Once you get used to it, and it no longer seems unnatural, you will be subjected to more of the same.

I find it amazing how America is the "Leader of the free world" and that sh!t goes on. Up here in Canada censorship is for Hate literature and thats about it. I was waiting for Wal-Mart to open one morning and I watched through the glass as the emplyees were doing the "Wal-mart Chant" Very spooky, how a corporation was trying to instill loyalty in its employees that would rival any nationalistic or religious loyalties. I beleive God frowns on this.

And certain rights that were given to you at birth cannot be revoked, nor can they be given away freely. Criminals on "death row" in the USA still have rights up to the minute they are executed. One case I seen, the execution was postphoned because the executee had a head cold. Corporations DO abuse these rights freely, and will continue to do so untill challenged.

 

Hmmm...   Apologies and clarifications are in order. I meant no animosity toward anyone, especially Pete. Surveillance is a serious issue and deserves more than sarcasm. I do not have time right now to properly respond so will come back ASAP and explain. Maybe I can convert John.

 

Normaly i would have a point a view to argue with what pete says lol but hes right its not your computer i sugest bringing your owen lab top to work  if its allowed lol  and you are there to work.

 

Mr. Blaze,

What about lunch hour? Breaks? Are these times "off limits" to the phone on your desk? Of course not! The computer should not be either. An email to a spouse or child or boyfriend or girlfriend should NEVER be recorded and reviewed and ESPECIALLY without your knowledge. I am old-fashioned. This is AMERICA!

To the person from Canada (Unicorn), Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was getting to feel like I was the only one who believes that spying on employees is rude and if you don't trust them, then why give them a computer in the first place? Why HIRE them i the first place? You are right, the United States, who used to cherish our freedoms and challenge employers who wronged employees with impunity is now a country being led down the road to what they threw out in the USSR. The difference? It looks like it's not the government alone, it's a government-corporate alliance that will use every trick in the book to make employees mere cogs in the machine.

One thing I am curious about in this thread. I thought of this driving down a freeway and looking over at an industrial plant. How many of you arguing against freedom of communication by whatever method, are white collar workers with a computer on your desk? How many of you are blue collar workers who might, and this is just a thought,  be angry at the fact that white collar workers "have it so easy" and have computers on their desks on are dead set against them using it because you don't have access out on the plant floor, or whatever. I'm serious and mean no disrespect, I thought of this and can see that as another cultural/class issue that would prevent all of us from seeing eye to eye. Furthermore, I would understand that!

I keep thinking about Pete saying in an earlier post that his employer expects him to use a payphone to call home!! If he is in a state with such treatment of labor than I can understand how he could feel I am coming from a different planet.

For freedom, trust and harmony in the workplace,

John

 

Hi BLAZE, long time no see.

My rule for today: No sarcasm.

Now I'll keep it simple:

1] It's not your parking lot.

2] It's not your building.

3] It's not your telephone.

4] It's not your computer.

5] It's not your desk.

6] etc.

7] The employer makes the work rules - if you don't like them find another job.

8] Big Brother is government, not the grocery on the corner or any other private company.

9] Sigh...

 

hey, what if you get stock options? THEN whose stuff is it?!?!

 

Umm... I'd say it's your wanna be stuff, if you actually owned the stock, then, well, it's your stuff.