What do you think about on-line virus scans vs. resident AV programs?

Paul and Mods

I have no idea what is causing the duplicate posts...scond time this has happened


No problem snowy. Don't let that hold you back from posting. We'll delete the duplicates untill you figured it out. Kind regards, Pieter

 

First, I guess I have been lucky, but I haven't had any major problems with my av that required reformatting. I've had the typical configuration problems, or minor problems in getting the mail program to stay installed. But to me that's part of the fun of new software. I know I can come here, one or more of these members/mods will figure it out, and I'll have learned something new about computers and software.
Second, I now have a habit of going to cracker sites to read their articles on how viruses and trojans are created (I don't understand half of what I read, but that's something else). I have heard that there can be what I assume are "mines", if I read Krusty's post correctly. Since I don't want to stop going to these sites, I want to be protected.
Third, I download a massive amount of software (usually deleted within 15 minutes ). Three times my av has caught a virus/trojan - from sites I never thought would have had them.
To me, it's an ounce of prevention.
Once again, an interesting discussion. Thanks sk, for making me think through my assumptions.
I swear you guys/gals are going to make my brain collapse!

Douglas

 

> No need to get dramatic -

No drama. You stated "it's my belief at least that AV programs can and do in fact cause more damage than the viruses themselves".

On what evidence do you base that belief ?

> My experience, as stated above, is ancecdotal.

Ah ... "anectodal" evidence ... you were told by a guy who sat next to a man in a bus whose brother once went out with a girl whose third cousin knew a guy whos sister-in-law's uncle's grandfather met a defrocked priest who told him he'd heard it in the confessional ? You have no first hand knowledge that "AV programs can and do in fact cause more damage than the viruses themselves" ?

> What is yours?

I have a little first-hand knowledge of computer viruses ... and of most major and minor antivirus programs, past and present.

> Did you experience any of the viruses you mentioned in your post personally on a non-corporate computer?

All of them.

> If not, do you attribute it to the fact that you use an AV program?

I deliberately infected computers with them. However, had I not deliberately triggered those viruses on un-protected computers, a decent antivirus program would have prevented me from doing so ... and it would have prevented me from doing so without causing more damage than the viruses themselves.

If antivirus programs really did cause more damage than viruses then the whole world would know about it ... the topic would take over the Internet ... it would make front-page headlines in your morning newspaper.

Sorry ... your belief belongs in the same basket as "Antivirus vendors write viruses to sell more programs".

 

PIETER..Thank you..........PAUL..must have been my double-sided night vision.....LOL an you are most welcome.



Doug

With true blue respect may I suggest that you stay away from those hacker sites. Its unlikely they would want to deliberately bring notice to themselfs nevertheless temptation does exist for every person to resist.


this too brings in yet another point......hackers...and script teasers.....that loveable bunch.....WHO CAN NOT BEGIN TO DO THE DAMAGE THAT IS CAUSED BY INNOCENT COMPUTERS OWNED BY INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO PROTECT THEIR INNOCENT INVESTMENT.
Sure the virus writters and backdoor busters exist.....an will always exist........but its all those un-protected computers that do the spreading.....protect the computers an the spread of viruses drop tremendously. So why isn't people hardening their security......bet we could write volumes just on that subject.
it can't be a lack of awareness.....the daily news is full of articles on computers.....more so today than ever before....so does the majority not care?? I honestly don't think its a matter of caring as much as a matter of fear.....fear of messing up their computers because of their lack of experience.
Free firewalls and virus scanners abound....an yet I personally know highly educated people who offer the arguement that THEY WILL NEVER GET HACKED....HUH...DUD

 

In that case I really don't even know what to say.

sk

 

Snowy The Snowman is herewith MAKES A DARE!!!!


I challange every person who reads this topic to find at least one of their friends or associates in need of a firewall/anti-virus program AN INSTALL THE PROGRAMS FOR THEM.

an yes I have done so.....

 

Again, Paul - based on what? Are we talking about the percentage of people who know about virii here, or are we talking about how many of them actually GET virii? How else can we ever get to the quantitative heart of the matter - how real is the threat vs. how damaging is the cure? So again, what's your take on how many people in a non-corporate environment get viruses or trojans that could not be completely 'fixed' using an on-line scan service. TIA.

sk

 

Hi snowy!
I totally understand, snowman. Sometimes I just can't help myself. Some of their articles are fascinating. And someone told me once, "Know your enemy." (not that I'm in the business of avs).

Love your posts, snowy. Thanks!

Douglas

 

Doug

oh yes I most assurely understand.....an knowing one's enemy is a good defense but just make sure your enemy never knows you..........an thats what happens when visting such sites.....in less time than it takes to blink an eye a person's address is revealed..os...broswer of those not hidden.......so if you feel the need to do the deed then hide yourself indeed.......vanish....poof...then read.



SK

Please don't think me rude or disrespectful for commenting on your post to Paul.....mine is more a question to your question........
I have no idea what the count is on infected home pc's or hacked home pc's so wont pretend otherwise......so with that in mind.......I took note of just the "hits" made on port 1443 since 5 a.m this morning........there were 163 such "hits" on that port alone......not counting Hits made on other ports......numerous trojan ports.....which could just as well be computers infected by BOTS........my question is: why are so many assorted computers hitting my lil ye ole computer with its coffee stains cpu drain..and my eye strain from watching my security blink.....infected computers just perhaps............by the ways..glad you began this topic

 

To Snowy - That's a good question. Why are there so many hits, and are they significant?

sk

 

I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, snowy, but it seems like you're saying that on line scans can't or don't clean viruses they find. If that's what you're saying, I'd only point out that they do remove the viruses. But as MtM pointed out, depending on how often your run them, you have no idea when the virus infected your system. (Unless, of course, you run them every day. Then you would have a better idea.)
sk

 

http://birmingham.bizjournals.com/birmingham/stories/2002/11/04/smallb5.html



According to the above link 1 in 14 home computers were infected by klez............ouch!!!!!!


SK

To most your question could not be answered...however, in my case I can say with pure honesty that yes many of the hits bore harmful intent.....ports such as 456, 4590, 2801, 12345....these are known tojan ports........

Our friends Mr Krusty and Ms Lori made very good points...its not just infections from viruses.....websites can download without permission on computers of users unaware of such behavior or how to prevent it......download what......downloading anything without permission is hacking no matter what the contents.....it so much depends on people with experience to convey the message to less experience people....they are the defenseless...an once again I must say that I believe there is a fear factor preventing people from installing the needed protection onto their computers. These are not persons such as yourself SK..you are not inexperience an have the choice......many do not

 

SK

Thank you...no, I was not aware that the online scans cleaned the viruses......appreciate you advising. MTM does have a point.......I was leaning in that direction but was not fully informed....my sorry...

 

Yes, ouch, snowy. But there is a key element here; one I did address: The Klez virus enters systems through infected emails. As, is my understanding, do almost all viruses.

sk

 

Welspoken Snowy friend...

Those hits are caused of indifferent people as well those 90% of people Paul mentioned....they do not run antistuff on their puters, and furthermore they spread malware all over. I think - SK - you should change your attitude that way more friendly, that better be too cautious even paranoid than get malware and SPREAD it all over the world.
When it comes to online scanners....they are not trustworthy after your puter got infected. Many of viruses attempts to disabling antistuff, that´s why online scan won´t work either. Experts might correct me if I am totally wrong.

friendliest *Ari*

 

SK

yes, your point was well made and well taken. Ever try to tell a ten year old not to open e mail....or a lonely person who's only contact with the "world" is e mail..etc....an they have no programs to prevent viruses.....

An lets not forget those loveable "messengers"..AOL..YAHOO..MSN.....oh how they harvest the computers of the unaware.....an oh my all those great free program like Kazaa....those file sharers...quietly spreading everything but the flu.....try telling a hip teen not to want more music......an what their expression.......worse ouch you ever will see..lol

SK, truely I understand your point of view....its those who have no such choice that are the spreaders......you can defend yourself......many would not know where to begin.....they need that "chance" that slight "edge"

 

In respect to "others" I will bowout this topic so as not to crowd the board an give all others the opportunity to express themselfs.....

Have enjoy the converstation and all points of view.
My thanks for the opportunity to share

 

Well, Snowy...some things have at least been clarified. Email is a major component of this whole process, and I acknowledged that, and further stated that that is why I now use - and appreciate - MailWasher. No doubt about it; that is a key component of a multi-layered approach because email is the main entree for most viruses. And for the most part, unless I have specifically initiated a communication, or recognize either the name or the purpose an an email, I tend not open it, or else now might read it in MailWasher. And I have had Outlook Express's viewer turned off since I read about that vulnerability a couple of months ago.

The point about the whole array of messengers is another key element. Personally, I have always kept a very tight leash on those types of programs; I always choose the option to exclude eveyone except those who I specifically add in. That's just common sense to me.

And also Snowy, some of the issues you raised are not directly countered by AV software, but fall into Anti-Trojan, Firewall, cookie managers, etc.

And a good, clean backup is vital, without question.

And finally, while it's nothing to take lightly, 1 out of 14 translates to roughly 7%, although world wide, as the article states, that still translates to millions of computers.

So I am clearly not suggesting that simply by closing one's eyes and hoping that nothing bad will happen, one can responsibly expect to surf on line in any sort of safe way. What I am doing is questioning whether or not resident AV programs specifically are as important as they are made out to be, and suggesting that there might in fact be viable strategic alternatives, incorporating the specifics I've stated above.

sk

 

Excellent warning and excellent advice. I appreciate your insights, as I'm sure all the others do. Thank you, snowy.
Regards,
Douglas

 

Doug

You are most welcome my friend...an my compliments on your own insight...........

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IN-GENERAL COMMENT

Far be the case of this topic being about any one person or their specific habits in relation to computer security. In keeping with the jest of Paul's request for input on the subject at hand the topic therefore takes a meaning of security or lack thereof for all persons.
This is about girls with beautiful curls who become prey to those who would abuse...its about old men sipping on their glass of gin taking to a friend in cyberland......its about pravacy..security...and the use of common sense.....
what I do or can't do to harden the security of my computer is of no value if such knowledge is kept selfishly hidden in the shadows of my mind......that would amount to self-centerness an be of no use to the world. An we do live within a group...not isolated in a mountain cave. As such there is a need to take care of others if the world is to exist. Otherwise, the passage of time coupled with desertion from society would lead to chaos and total distruction of civil order.
does not the same apply to cyberland ? Those millions of infected computers effect us all....as a whole. That I was not infected did not degrade the effectiveness of the virus.
However, if those "millions" had used preventive measures once again as a "whole" the virus would have been something of a drop of rain.....instead it was a storm.
each member of the forum is to be highly regarded and respected for their sharing and caring with others.....as gracefully as possible I bow in respect to you.
There are those at this forum who's knowledge is astounding.......I pale in a dim light to their experience. Do these experience people use security programs...they alone can answer.
To the newbes.....you have a choice of common sense or whatever else you so desire to follow....my suggestion to each person not experienced in computer security is to add a firewall and anti-virus protect.....

wishing all a safe computing experience for many years to come

Snowy The Snowman

 

Again, Snowy. I don't fundamentally disagree with you. The key, however, IMO, is to determine HOW best to accomplish that. We do not disagree on the goals; at most, on the methods needed to achieve those goals.
sk

 

SK

certainly I see your point.....its not a matter of agreement or disagreement. Perhaps whats being over-looked is the very simple fact which has been referred to several times....that even the most minor adjustments such as disabling the things you mentioned are completely unknown to many inexperience users......they may as well be asked to built an entire computer........
these days there are millions of computers but just a rare few users aware of even minor security hexs. Such people find it difficult installing a printer....much less monitoring for viruses.
nor do we know that those computers did have anti virus programs so thats a moot question. As for probability thats like a roll of the dice..the outcome unperdictable
I can jay walk an risk being run over by a car...or use good sense an cross the street properly......a personal choice.......but more perdictable results.
Surely I would not presume to advise you how to run your computer....nor would I do so with anyone....
My feelings of a certain responsiblity to suggest that newbes harden their security is not presumption but caution .
the fact that I can prevent all viruses from entering through e mail is of no use to an inexperience person....if in fact I could do so. E mail is just one avenue not all avenues......one friend infects another friend because that friend knew the e mail was from a friend.....huh......
if as you stated you were curious........would it be wise for a working person who saved all year to buy a computer for his child to be as curious as you....if that man knows nothing about computers??/ All the man wanted was to give his child a learning device to perhaps use for school work........an may well end up with a cracked device that brings disappointment to a child. This is not an emotion being stated but a fact that happens every day to countless peoples around the globe......
one computer prevented from being infected is one less computer to spread the infection....if using an anti virus program prevents even one computer from being infected..is that not a success
please excuse me......I by no intent am trying to change any outlook you may have......I do however realize that there are many inexperience people visiting this forum an I would not want to be a party to convicing them not to protect their computers by whatever means.....

 

SK

forgot to mention that its snowing in my area..temp 16 degrees......snowy all confortable....

 

SK

one final comment so as you realize that I am not taking personal issue here. No, I do not rely solely on anti virus programs to protect the computer.....nor a firewall alone..........but instead a layered approach.....

secondly......can I do without an anti virus program.....I can't but ask myself why would I ? Do I trust ani virus programs.....nothing on the computer I trust....myself included LOL....cause I do make mistakes..