WARNING! Windows Vista "System Restore" stops working when using ATI 11

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by d.chatten, Feb 6, 2008.

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  1. d.chatten

    d.chatten Registered Member

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    I have just noticed that Windows "System Restore" stops working after a successful image restore usung ATI 11, the reason for this is the fact that after a successful restore using ATI 11 a new generic volume is detected and installed by Windows Vista, this new generic volume is the Windows system drive, but, Vista's system restore thinks that the Windows system drive is missing because of the new generic volume being installed, to fix this issue all that is needed after every ATI image restore is to disable system restore for the old (missing) system drive and enable system restore on the new system drive, i've added a screenshot to help understand what i'm talking about.

    I hope this makes sense, i also hope that people take note as they will be in deep crap if they need to use system restore.
     

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  2. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    kolo's posts below re the system restore table explains why all the restore points are gone when you boot vista after retoring a vista system disk.

    There is a problem with ATI11, where it mucks up one of the Generic Drive entries when you do a restore. This can cause annoyances when you use the Safely Remove Hard function in windows after a restore and might be the prob you are having re missing disk. Opening the hardware manager, allowing View Hidden Devices, and updating the driver for the gneric drives will clean up the muckiness.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2008
  3. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Two comments:

    1. This doesn't appear to happen with ATI 10 on Vista. I've restored several times and the settings for System Restore do not get changed.

    2. Vista uses a different mechanism for restore points, the Volume Shadow Copy Service (VSS). VSS keeps a map of all changed sectors on the disk as files are created/deleted/changed so that it can re-create a file as it existed at any time in the past (within the limits of the saved sector map). When you restore using TI, the restored image does not end up in the same exact sectors as the source image. As a result, the Restore Points and Shadow Copy files are rendered useless. Vista detects the changes upon first rebooting and reacts by deleting all of the restore points.

    By default, Vista allocates 15% of the partition for shadow copies/restore points. It is a waste of time for TI to include these files in the image since a) they can occupy a lot of space in the backup image (15% of a 300 GB partition is 45 GB before compression) and b) they are going to be deleted by Vista upon restoration anyway. It would be nice if TI were smart enough to treat all of the shadow copy files the same way it treats the paging file; in other words, do not bother to include them in the image.
     
  4. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    While this may fix the association between the volume ID and the System Restore settings, the restore points are still going to be lost. A restored sector map created by VSS will be incorrect, and Vista will delete it. What this means is that all of your restore points in the TI image will be irretrievably lost upon image restoration.

    You're better off deleting all restore points before imaging in order to reduce the image size because they're not going to survive anyway.
     
  5. d.chatten

    d.chatten Registered Member

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    This is indeed correct as i have used TI 10 ever since it's release.

    The point i'm trying to make is, if someone restores an image using TI 11 and then a week later they need to use Windows system restore for one reason or another, it won't work because Windows system restore thinks that the system drive is missing, when infact it isn't, and no restore points will have been created in that week, or any other time thereafter, when system restore is disabled on the so called missing system drive and re-enabled on the so called new system drive all is fine.

    I think Acronis need to sort this out, pronto, as this is going to upset a lot of people that sometimes rely on Windows system restore to get them out of trouble.
     
  6. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello all,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis Disk Backup software

    Thank you for provided information. Our Development Team is already working on this issue. I've forwarded these useful details to them.

    Thank you.
    --
    Michael Levchenko
     
  7. truthseeker

    truthseeker Former Poster

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    Take it easy chief. Relax. Acronis is one of the best companies I dealt with and TrueImage the best program I ever bought. No program is perfect, so chill dude, take it easy chief.
     
  8. dbknox

    dbknox Registered Member

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    Thanks to d.chatten for starting this post, I used to stop system restore before imaging using XP but TI worked so well for me I simply turmned it off completely and forgot about it. Now I have Vista and as of yet have no way to do a ``test restore`` I have been leaving system restore on. I did reduce it to 1 gig, but now I will start to get in the habit of deleting system restore. ( I don`t remember ever using it, but one never knows). Good idea k0lo thanks
     
  9. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Michael: There appear to be two issues here. One is the assignment of a new GUID to a restored partition which can mess up volume associations, and the other is a future enhancement to TI which will either allow Shadow Copy files to survive imaging or else to exclude them from the image to save space. Hopefully the Acronis Development Team will consider both issues.
    If you do frequent imaging then turning off System Restore may be your best bet. However, don't dismiss this really unique and useful Vista feature. If you have Vista Business, Enterprise, or Ultimate then the VSS mechanism can be another useful addition to your backup arsenal because these editions of Vista have the "Previous Versions of Files" feature that lets you restore a file as it existed yesterday, the day before, or on any day that is contained in the Shadow Copy files. Personally, I find this to be my favorite new Vista feature because it has saved me from my own stupidity many times. How often have you accidentally picked "Save" when you meant to do "Save As" and accidentally wrote over that big spreadsheet that you spent hours working on? Or how many times have you deleted some file that you find a need for a day or two later? With the "Previous Versions of Files" you just go back in time and retrieve the file as it existed before deletion. I find this incredibly useful and it fills the time gaps between when I create full backup images with TI.
     
  10. d.chatten

    d.chatten Registered Member

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    If Windows system restore is disabled there could possibly be installation issues when installing Windows updates, i seem to remember way back when Windows media player 10 was released for XP, if ststem restore was disabled then WMP 10 wouldn't install, i don't know how true this was for other Windows updates, but, the same issue could arise in Vista at some point if system restore is disabled, i do, however, think it would be a good idea to disable system restore before a backup (to save space), then re-enable it when the backup has completed, at least untill Acronis, hopefully, come up with a solution.
     
  11. futurebeam

    futurebeam Registered Member

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    Hi,

    I was just wondering if there are any news on this issue? I'd really love to exclude the Shadow Copies from my TI11 backups to keep them small(er) but actually don't want to erase all "previous Versions" of my files as I might still need them because of my own stupidity :rolleyes:

    Is this feature going to be included in a future Update-Release of TI11?

    Regards,
    futurebeam
     
  12. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello futurebeam,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis Disk Backup Software.

    We are sorry for delayed response.

    Our Development Team is working on that. Most likely, it will be included into the next version of Acronis True Image. We're sorry, but the exact time-frame isn't defined yet.

    Thank you.
    --
    Marat Setdikov
     
  13. The Sand

    The Sand Registered Member

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    This is real helpful. I have tried using Windows System Restore and it didn't work and I didn't know why. Because you provided the print screen I was able to see myself the problem (if you had not provided that I would not have figured this out so a big, BIG "thanks" for that.) Sure enough mine looks like yours... so, do I uncheck the box that says "missing" and check the box at the top that says Windws C: Sorry if this sounds stupid but I don't know. It sounds like I should disable system restore before I use TI 11 for backup and then enable it again when I am finished - and if I ever do a restore "uncheck" the box that says "missing" and recheck the new box. Is that everything?

    Thanks Kolo for your work on this... I do not have the "Previous Versions of Files" feature (which sounds very cool!) I like to have "all" things (like system restore) available to me, from "all" sources when in a jam... so I want to keep System Restore enabled.

    p.s did you notice Marat said "version" so we won't be getting this for TI 11.

    Rock-on restoring!

    Sandy
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2008
  14. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    I am just wondering if this is exclusively a True Image problem and whether they will in fact be able to fix the problem without some changes being made to the way Vista works.

    If this happens to other image/restore programs Microsoft must be brought into the fixing loop if only to advise on their best way to proceed. It is after all part of Vista security facilities that is being broken.
    One never knows but Microsoft may already have a solution in progress, SP1.1 perhaps?


    Ps I noticed that TS contributed to this thread. I don't suppose it worth unblocking him to see the latest gem?

    Xpilot
     
  15. tuttle

    tuttle Registered Member

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    Wow, that is cool. You're exactly right: I've been in that exact situation many times, accidentally hitting "Save" rather than "Save As". Thanks for describing this new feature, as I wasn't aware of it. I'm planning to buy a new PC later this year, so now I have a reason to consider paying extra for a "non-Home" edition.
     
  16. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    I really love this feature of Vista. If you haven't seen the interface before, here is what you see when right-clicking on a file and choosing "Restore Previous Versions".

    Previous Versions.PNG

    This example is a spreadsheet that has been modified several times in the last couple of months. All previous versions are shown. You can open any of them, copy them to a new file, or replace the current version with any of the previous versions.
     
  17. tuttle

    tuttle Registered Member

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    That is really cool. What a great feature. Thanks. I'll have to check to see if the laptops I'll consider have an option to get Vixta Business or Ultimate editions, rather than a Home edition.
     
  18. d.chatten

    d.chatten Registered Member

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    It seems it's an ATI 11 only issue, i can backup and restore an image with ATI 9 & 10's boot cd and all is fine with Vista's system restore, as soon as i use ATI 11 system restore in Vista no longer works.
     
  19. d.chatten

    d.chatten Registered Member

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    Yes, thats all you need to do.
     
  20. The Sand

    The Sand Registered Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to answer...

    Sandy
     
  21. The Sand

    The Sand Registered Member

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    I found this problem on both computers running Vista and TI 11. Although it wasn't the reason system restore failed me. I do remember picking "restore dates" and with this current problem that wouldn't be possible. My system restore failure problems were quite awhile ago - possibly when I was rolling with TI 10. I have never used system restore with any success (one of the main reasons I purchased TI.)

    Sandy
     
  22. XS11E

    XS11E Registered Member

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    Sure does happen with ATI 10, I've NEVER had system restore points after a restore of Vista Ultimate 64 bit. o_O

    I've never used ATI 11, only ATI 10.
     
  23. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Slight misinterpretation here. The effect described and pictured in post #1 of this thread does not happen with ATI 10, only with ATI 11.

    Now, that DOES happen with ATI 10, but it happens because when ATI restores it does not put all of the sectors back in their original locations. System Restore in Vista keeps track of changed sectors and depends on things not moving around. So when you reboot into a restored Vista partition, Vista detects that the restore sector maps are invalid and deletes them.

    If you do a restore with ATI 10 and then do nothing, Vista will start creating new restore points again on its own. If you restore with ATI 11, though, new restore points will not be created until after you re-enable System Restore on the drive, as stated in post #1.
     
  24. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

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    Just one more reason ATI11 should never have been released in the first place. It's one thing to have bugs, but bugs that muck up safety/backup features are especially undesirable, especially in safety/backup software.

    Let's hope Acronis has it's act together on verson 12-- I suspect we'll know soon enough.
     
  25. FTJoe

    FTJoe Registered Member

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    So am I a dead man? I'm helping restore a friends machine. Vista in a problem loop installing update 3 of 3. I've figured out finally how to do a system restore to before the update, and made a TI 11 backup just in case. After playing around a bunch, I've decided I probably played too much and figured I'd restore the image I took. NO RESTORE POINTS!!!!!! The loop prevents getting to the Vista interface as it's installing the updates before signing on. Any way to get the restore points back?

    Edit - It appears if you choose sector by sector restore, restore points are available!!! Now back to the original problem...
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
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