VPN or TOR?

Discussion in 'privacy general' started by bellgamin, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. bellgamin

    bellgamin Very Frequent Poster

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    If I browse with TOR browser, do I still need to use a VPN to ensure privacy?
     
  2. ComputerSaysNo

    ComputerSaysNo Registered Member

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    Yes you should even though torproject.org advises against it. It's just a process of adding more noise to your internet activities. I would rather have a entry node from a vpn server than a tor entry node if you ask me. You have to realize that your vpn traffic is collected and stored just like tor traffic is by government's so take steps to limit risk.
     
  3. 1PW

    1PW Registered Member

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    Maintaining a Tor browser connection within a VPN tunnel will be met with abnormally high and objectionable latency that is usually only justified by great heights of paranoia. The most advanced VPN providers have either replaced their aging OpenVPN technology or are quickly adding the very advanced WireGuard® encryption technology to their latest versions.

    HTH
     
  4. Uitlander

    Uitlander Registered Member

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    I have seen talk on various sites that TLAs now consider anyone using TOR a 'person of interest', and that some ISPs are now working with BigBro to monitor for TOR use, then report back. Connecting to TOR through a VPN is the solution, otherwise you must trust your ISP not to snitch, and that is a major leap of faith, as any ISP based in the 14-Eyes jurisdiction is subject to a national security letter (NSL).
     
  5. bellgamin

    bellgamin Very Frequent Poster

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    TLA?
     
  6. stapp

    stapp Global Moderator

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    Three letter agencies.
     
  7. LockBox

    LockBox Registered Member

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    [
    This sounds like VPN marketing ********. That would be a horrible violation of constitutional rights in In the United States. It would take a huge number of people to keep something like that quiet as well. Three Letter Agencies have methods of monitoring Tor, but enlisting the help of ISPs to spy and “report back” is almost certainly not one of them.
     
  8. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    In Australia ISPs are now legally obligated (required) to store two years metadata for each account / person now.I would be surprised if there wasn't a similar law in the USA.

    TOR with or without VPN? Depends what you're hiding and from who.
     
  9. bellgamin

    bellgamin Very Frequent Poster

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    I am not an under-cover Klingon, if that's what worrying you. I just don't want to pay for a VPN if using TOR (for free) affords a reasonable amount of insulation from spammers & trackers & things that go bump in the night. :eek:
     
  10. Uitlander

    Uitlander Registered Member

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  11. Uitlander

    Uitlander Registered Member

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    Because ISPs are soooo much more trustworthy than those shady telecommunications companies were:

    https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying

    And of course AT&T's collusion ( https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf ) was not any violation of the Constitution anyway, nor is PRISM, or any of the other domestic surveillance programs exposed by Snowden....and speaking of Snowden, this is also no violation of the Constitution (https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2019/10/edward-snowden-how-your-cell-phone-spies-on-you.html). And absolutely nothing about the lockdowns could ever be considered any sort of constitutional violation, perish the thought!

    ISPs would never spy on you, and if they did, would certainly never sell that data to others, so pay no attention when you find sources like these:

    https://www.techtimes.com/articles/...ch-you-can-stay-protected-from-isp-spying.htm

    https://www.androidauthority.com/isp-tracking-1167088/

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/isp-involvement-suspected-in-latest-finfisher-govt-spyware-campaign/

    https://www.wired.com/2007/05/which-isps-are-spying-on-you/

    https://www.theverge.com/2013/7/21/4541342/isp-owner-describes-nsa-box-that-spied-on-customers

    ...which are all just 'false flags' intended by 'bad actors' to cast distrust on BigBro, and impugn the reputations of his TLA posse. Pay no attention to any of the above, and remember there is no direct and proven link between any TLA and ISP, which proves that none exists!

    Nope, the Constitution is all safe and secure, the TLAs would never dream of violating it or even the Bill of Rights, TIA no longer exists (no matter what that troublemaker Snowden says), and all is well in America. Anybody that says different is just a paranoid tinhatter and conspiracy theorist!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2021
  12. Infected

    Infected Registered Member

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    I wouldn't use a VPN with tor. Tor as it is, is unbearably slow.
     
  13. Nightwalker

    Nightwalker Registered Member

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  14. Spartan

    Spartan Registered Member

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    This
     
  15. bellgamin

    bellgamin Very Frequent Poster

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    @Nightwalker -- Grrreat articles!!! Many thanks for the lynx. :thumb::thumb::thumb:
     
  16. MisterB

    MisterB Registered Member

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    The main issue I have with using TOR these days isn't speed, it is slower than a VPN but I can still watch Youtube with TOR layered over a VPN. The issue is pretty much Google and captchas. So it is sometimes necessary to put a minimal layer of VPN over it to avoid the discrimination against those of us who want anonymity. I use the Windscribe extension with a random account with no email for this purpose or the VPN in the Opera web browser. These browser extensions are leaky but for this purpose, they are sufficient.
     
  17. LockBox

    LockBox Registered Member

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    You are absolutely right about most of that and I would agree. I think passing along Tor users to TLAs would raise red flags and require a lot of cooperation that wouldn’t be legal. Yes, that’s probably a quaint notion as legality doesn’t mean much anymore. It would still be a pretty bold move. But could they? Of course. Everything Snowden and post-Snowden proves your post is closer to reality than mine. I guess I even deserved the harsh sarcasm. I’m usually the “overly suspicious” one (check my past posts), but I let the hope in me cast doubt on something that is absolutely very possible. One thing you could have thrown at me was Room 641A. I am sitting in my corner, nose firmly planted within.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  18. Alec

    Alec Registered Member

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    It's probably just one more "red flag" that the NSA might use when they already have some other indications of interest in tracing someone's activities. Not sure how current this type of thinking is in the realm of government spying, but back in the early Edward Snowden days there were articles like this...

    NSA likely targets anybody who's 'Tor-curious'
    July 3, 2014
    I think it depends on just what you believe are the capabilities of XKeyscore and just how far the government might push the boundaries of the
    Patriot Act; however, the United States spent a ton of money building and staffing the Utah Data Center for some reason. :doubt:
     
  19. Uitlander

    Uitlander Registered Member

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    That was not intended as "harsh sarcasm", but teasing. Unfortunately being on the autism spectrum, I'm good at neither humor nor ribbing, so guess I'll leave that to them that can from now on. I believe "Room 641A" was mentioned in one of the links.
     
  20. Palancar

    Palancar Registered Member

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    For posters above stating that a VPN makes using TOR too slow you should look around for a better VPN. VPN servers should be providing at least a 100 meg exit node speed if you are connecting with a decent ISP connection. Of course if you are in a part of the world where your ISP speeds are "behind the times" there is nothing anyone can do about that. My experience has been great on TOR and I use it all day long (behind two VPNs).
     
  21. 1PW

    1PW Registered Member

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    Hello @Palancar

    If it's okay with you, would you please report the results (Ping+Download+Upload) gleaned from your typical VPN -> VPN -> Tor connection with Ookla's® Speedtest® at https://www.speedtest.net

    Much appreciated.
     
  22. Palancar

    Palancar Registered Member

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    I am not certain that my "stats" are going to be any help to you. I can tell you that when I leave my vpn chain ,the exit node usually shows a little above or sometimes slightly under 100 meg. Very consistent performance. I can easily change it by enlisting the connections of various vpn's with greater or less latency (distance to target). I sacrifice some speed performance to use physical vpn servers in countries that I feel do a better job at protecting my anonymity. My raw ISP is > 400 meg and if I was willing to select two close servers my vpn exit node would be around 200 meg or a little more.

    To better illustrate; this would be the same as someone using an ISP with a 125 meg connection, and then they are going to enlist the TOR system. You cannot predict the speeds of TOR because the software varies the path of the 3 servers. The more predictable server is your guard server (entry which doesn't change very often). I use multiple TBB setups and if I don't like the guard that gets setup, I delete the bundle and create a new one from the virgin TBB download on my Desktop. The thing about TOR is that some hosting people have "smokin" servers and others are willing to help out by hosting a server, but frankly their hardware and raw ISP connections are very lagging. As long as you get a good guard server you can easily change the circuit route with the click of a button on the browser. Also, remember that the TOR circuit auto rotates at about a 10 minute interval.

    For a connection such as the one I am using today the TOR exit node comes in around 6-10 meg. Again, I keep it tight, long, and secure. 6-10 meg is more than I need for a site such as this. It loads well and is very dependable. I wish that Wilder's had an onion link, but that request has never gone anywhere. So be it.
     
  23. Floyd 57

    Floyd 57 Registered Member

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    From that to 6-10 meg hmm

    Great if u wanna read a newspaper I guess
     
  24. Palancar

    Palancar Registered Member

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    That is my choice! Also, some of us use more than 3 servers in our TOR circuit but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

    When I am on my real name machines I get 230 meg via two vpns all day long. I don't need TOR for that stuff at all. I could reduce my TOR circuit to conventional and then draw down on 1 close vpn server and my TOR exit would push 25 meg sometimes. The classic trade off SPEED vs SECURITY.
     
  25. Floyd 57

    Floyd 57 Registered Member

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    What do you use Tor for tho?
     
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