UPS Question

Discussion in 'hardware' started by Rico, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    After a bit of searching it seems regardless of whether I use their software or rely on Windows I can only configure the UPS to shutdown my Windows PC and it will not work with my PVR. I'm not worried so much about my TV or AV receiver as they don't have a hard drive, although allowing them to gracefully shut down too would be nice.
     
  2. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    After imagining my machine I thought I'd try their software but I can now confirm that the installer does indeed contain Java Runtime. I have no interest in installing that puss on my machine/s. Unfortunately, even without their software Windows 10 v1709 build 16299.125 does not give me power options similar to my laptop. Maybe it works differently?

    Anyway, I guess I'm left with manual control as my only option.
     
  3. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    No.

    What is your worry about JavaScript? Understand JavaScript is NOT Java - despite their similar names. JavaScript is safe. Java is not.
     
  4. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    Bill, you misunderstood my post. It is not JavaScript but Java RE.
     
  5. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    No, you specifically said - twice - in your post #50 above, "JavaScript". That is not the same thing as Java (Java RE). They are totally different and came from totally different development companies (Oracle and Mozilla).

    To get Java (or Java RE) on your system, you have to download and install it. Many programs contain JavaScript code and do NOT require Java to be installed.

    https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_javascript.xml
     
  6. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    No,. I said, "I suspect the UPS software for my device runs Java Runtime..". I then said, "After imagining my machine I thought I'd try their software but I can now confirm that the installer does indeed contain Java Runtime".

    I mentioned JavaScript because that was what was posted in that review, clearly by someone who did not understand the difference.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  7. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Yes you did! Come on dude! Anybody can go back and see what you said! And note you said the rep even asked about JavaScript.

    Regardless, a program that uses Java RE is not the same thing as having Java installed on your system. If you look at the system requirements for NetGuard, Java is not listed.

    So again, I fail to see the problem with NetGuard even if it does use Java Runtime. To be sure, I removed Java from all my systems long ago due to security issues. But I would not hesitate to install NetGuard if I had that UPS.
     
  8. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    Bill, you still don't get it! I said, "The sad thing is the rep from PowerShield asks what version of JavaScript the OP is running. :doubt:", meaning I was surprised that the rep obviously didn't understand the difference either. Why would they ask what version of JavaScript the OP was using?

    This conversation is going nowhere, so feel free not replying as I will not be replying to any more of your posts.

    Get over it, you're not always right! Just let it go.

    PS: My name is not Dude!
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  9. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Never said I was. But I can sure read what people say. Have a good day.
     
  10. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    Just before 12 pm Christmas day and the power went off here again.

    Now I'm getting some mileage out of the UPS. :thumb:
     
  11. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    I had to replace the two 12 V / 9 amp batteries in my UPS (actually the originals were 7 amp). I was rudely awoken this morning by a constant beep. I figured it might be the batteries and that was confirmed by the manufacturer after a quick chat to a support rep. He suggested the batteries should be replaced every 2 years. Does that sound right?

    Purchased in March 2017.

    Edit: When pulling the old batteries out there were signs at least 1 had been over-charged as it had swollen sides and a split in the bottom.
     
  12. Page42

    Page42 Registered Member

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    I would find that very disconcerting, to say the least! But in reading up on it, I see it is not all that uncommon. You seem to have identified the cause (over-charging), and I read that short-circuiting can be the other cause of swelling and splitting.
    UPS BATTERIES SWELL - WHY?

    As for the battery replacement question, I have gotten more than a couple of years out of my APC UPS units... more like two times that. But the variables are probably many. I finally grew tired of some of the problems with UPS units and switched to good quality surge protectors. I lose the uninterrupted power supply capacity (being able to properly shut down during a storm or other failure), but I don't have to be concerned with batteries. :doubt:

    I do like the UPS protection, and I may go back to them one day when I grow tired of the simplicity of these SurgeArrest PRO8T2s.

    SurgeArrest PRO8T2 .jpg
     
  13. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Typically is it every 3 - 5 years but if the UPS kicks over to battery output more frequently than normal, they will need to be replaced sooner. Two years is not common, but definitely not unheard of either.

    Some UPS have a sensitivity switch on the back, or a setting you can set via the UPS software. If your UPS is kicking over to battery quite often when not a full outage, you may want to lower the sensitivity setting. This will NOT affect what happens during a full power outage. The UPS will kick over to battery as expected. But lowering the sensitivity will cause the UPS to rely a little more on the AVR before kicking over to battery - and that is not a bad thing.

    Yeah, that is bad. Make sure you thoroughly clean out the battery compartment with a solution of baking soda and water. This solution will neutralize any acid that leaked.

    To be sure, that battery did not swell and crack because it was 9Ah instead of 7Ah, so no worries there. As noted by Page, a short (inside the battery) is the most likely cause. This is typically caused by a contaminate bridging a gap between the plates, or perhaps one of the plates shifted during rough handling during transport, or just a manufacturing defect. It happens.

    I think this is mistake. Yes, using a UPS does bring in additional issues to deal with - such as replacement batteries. But it is important to note even a good quality surge protector is little more than a fancy and expensive extension cord.

    As I noted way back in post #27 from March 2017,
    Point being, having backup battery power during a full power outage is just a small bonus feature of a good UPS with AVR. It really is all about the AVR.

    So again, if lucky, if (when!) an excessive surge or spike comes off the grid and hits the surge and spike protector, it will simply kill power to keep that surge or spike from reaching the computer and other connected devices. The problem there is it is NEVER good to simply kill power to a computer. It is not uncommon to lose data, or worse, to corrupt the boot drive. :( And of course, if (when) a low voltage anomaly comes off the grid, the surge and spike protector has no batteries to boost the voltage. So again, the computer comes crashing down. :(

    Also, unlike a UPS, surge and spike protectors wear out! Each time they absorb excessive voltage, it ages the MOVs and other devices a little bit at a time. So even a good surge and spike protector needs to be replaced. The problem is, there is no way to tell when. For this reason, it is commonly recommended to replace them every two years! That is, typically more often than you need to replace the UPS batteries!

    Oh, and I mentioned anomalies coming "off the grid", the fact is, extreme, damaging anomalies can originate from within the home too. Any high wattage appliance (oven, microwave, toaster, space heater, etc.) can introduce high (and low) voltage anomalies on the circuit. This is especially true if the building wiring is not up to code or, there is fault in that $15 1500W hair dryer made in some backwoods factory in China by unskilled, underpaid labor using questionable parts from the sister factory up-river.

    And of course, until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, even the best made products can be faulty right out of the box. Or they can be damaged after being dropped by Amazon, FedEx or you.

    It is because destructive high voltage anomalies can originate from within the home that "whole-house" protectors are not good enough! :(

    A surge and spike protector is better than nothing, but frankly I would not trust my computers, my data, (or my home theater system) to one.
     
  14. Page42

    Page42 Registered Member

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    I do like the UPS protection, and I may go back to them one day... possibly sooner than later.
     
  15. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    Thanks guys. There is no sign of acid or acid damage so I think I'm OK there. The battery may have been damaged for some time. I know the batteries didn't hold their charge like they did when I first bought the UPS.

    I Googled my new batteries and they are deep cycle, which I guess isn't a bad thing for my circumstances as I regularly lose power and often for hours at a time. The old, original batteries were not.
     
  16. Page42

    Page42 Registered Member

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    I am currently running an APC Back-UPS ES 500 on one machine, but decided to replace the "troublesome" APC Back-UPS ES 550 on the other computer, where I have been resorting to an APC SurgeArrest PRO8T2 (mentioned above).

    So, I just ordered an APC UPS, 600VA UPS Battery Backup & Surge Protector, BE600M1 from Amazon, and it will be here before Santa arrives. Glad I replied to Krusty on this thread, because that post drew a response from B_B that guided me back onto the UPS track. :thumb:
     
  17. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    More for my reference than anything, that link doesn't go to my UPS, so I'm posting a new link.

    https://powershield.com.au/product/powershield-defender-1200/
    Cool! :cool: :thumb:
     
  18. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Deep cycle matters if you regularly run the batteries all the way (or close to it) down. Most people, once power is lost, simply finish the sentence or paragraph they are working on, then close their applications and "gracefully" shutdown Windows and the computer. They don't keep using the computer until the batteries are nearly completely discharged. And for that matter, the vast majority of power outages last seconds, or a few minutes. That said, once or twice a year, my power goes out for an hour or longer - either due to weather or because a squirrel forgot to let go of one wire before grabbing another - crispy critter time. But that's usually "announced" by a loud explosion from the transformer's fuse getting blown and is localized to my immediate neighborhood. Outages due to weather are often widespread in my area.

    Anyway, it sure does not hurt to get deep cycle batteries. In fact, if you have frequent, long duration outages or periods of instability, and you like to keep your network alive during those periods, deep cycle may be best.
     
  19. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    I do shut my PC down in a power outage but I may continue watching TV. Or if I shut the TV down it puts my AV receiver in standby. My PVR is usually running, especially if I have a recording in progress, or scheduled.

    Power goes off here often when there's a storm, on windy days, when someone drives into a pole, or if I sneeze in the wrong direction. It often goes off for hours at a time.
     
  20. imdb

    imdb Registered Member

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    :eek: well then you need a generator not a ups.
     
  21. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    Hi Krusty,
    That would be exactly my experience as well, and not just a couple of times a year.

    When I researched buying an UPS back in 2003 I remember coming across photos of horror stories of UPS on fire. I remember swollen batteries was one of the causes. That was just too freaky and I decided to go for a reputable brand. I still have my APC smart UPS 1000. Cost a lot of money back then and no doubt you can get better for cheaper these days. The APC batteries are waaaay overpriced where I am and I've gone for third party battieries. My UPS takes a pair of batteries. The 3rd parties dont quite last as long as APCs but they're much cheaper. I did have one that failed early. Someone tested them for me, and the other battery was still fine.

    If I go out for a while or the weather looks dodgy I always fully disconnect everything on the UPS itself, but not the equipment attached (if that makes sense). If there's an outage I have probably 20 mins grace to shut down, more than enough time.

    So sick of the power cuts here AND horrid extended brownouts that dont do the same thing twice, we've just recently acquired an inverter/generator. The day after we bought it we had a 2hour power cut. From what Ive been told its not good to run sensitive electronics on a generator.
     
  22. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    ;)
    Eek! That sure does sound scary.
    No argument here. Buying from 3rd party suppliers is often a cheaper alternative. Think car parts for example. I didn't even think about buying one battery, much like I also had to get my car passed for rego yesterday and one of the front tyres had passed its use by date and the other wasn't quite as bad. I decided it best to replace both. The other two will be replaced early in the new year if I make it through 'til then.
    Sounds like a great investment.
    That is probably true for running directly off a genny, but through an inverter should be fine... If not, I'm sure I'll be corrected.* :D

    * Edit: That may depend on the quality of the inverter though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  23. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    Hey guys,

    Last time I tried the UPS manufacturer's software it ran Java RE. I don't remember exactly what options it provided but I just did not like the Java RE factor. Is it worth it? I'm not so sure.
     
  24. Krusty

    Krusty Registered Member

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    I can't post a link to VirusTotal, but it shows that their software still uses Java RE. :thumbd:

    I think I can keep on living without it.
     
  25. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    No, he needs both. You still need the UPS to hold up power until the generator fires up, stabilizes and then cuts-over.

    As far as replacement batteries, years ago, I peeled off the labels of a couple APC and a Cyberpower UPS and found these:

    https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.z8HVUgGV3uF4ACriVkHPGAHaFN?pid=Api&rs=1

    The exact same cells you can find on line, but much less expensive, from Amazon, BatteryMart, Apex Battery, Battery Wholesale, BatteryPlex or even Walmart.

    In some cases, if your UPS uses multiple cells to form one battery (typical 2 or 4 are used), if buy directly from the UPS maker, the cells will come already strapped and often with some sort of plastic mounting frame/divider thingamajiggy as seen here. But there's no reason not to use the original piece on the new cells. Just make sure you draw a small wiring diagram of the old battery showing how the terminals are strapped before you disassemble them. And save the straps other pieces so you can assemble the new cells into the new battery.

    For those wondering, the image above is an image of a cell. It is also an image of a battery. A single cell is a battery. And multiple cells make up a battery. Clear as mud huh?

    Think of a AA battery. That is really a "single cell" battery. Put two AA batteries in your TV remote and now you have one battery made up of two AA cells.

    That UB1270 above has 6 cells inside it - just like a car battery. It is a battery. But if the UPS requires two UB1270s, then one is a cell, strap two together and they become one battery.

    Still clear as mud? That's okay. It does not really matter. Just some incredibly useful trivia next time you are on Jeopardy. ;)
     
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