UltimateDefrag - is this the best defragger ever?

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by OliverK, Nov 1, 2006.

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  1. DOSawaits

    DOSawaits Registered Member

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    I wish you all the luck, but don't expect to much response to your question.

    Oh, BTW, PerfectDisk has actually offered me a 50% reduction if I should buy any of their products.... I really wonder why they suddenly be so kind to me (but, unfortunately no answer to my question)....
     
  2. majoMo

    majoMo Registered Member

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    In Raxco website you can download several pdf documents about. Of course if you are receptive to read and to believe in a vendor'tests. If not you can test yourself easily with the below tools. If you want after that you can post here the results. You can also to do the tests in SSD drives to see the odds.

    JkFragmenter by Jeroen Kessels
    A small commandline tool to fragment existing files, to generate new fragmented files with random data, or to list fragmentation information about files.
    Scramble and FileAccessTimer by Raxco
    Scramble is a tool to create new fragmented files, or to fragment the existing files/free space on a drive. FileAccessTimer is a tool to measure how long it takes to read a file from beginning to end. Used to show that reading a fragmentated file takes longer than reading a defragmented file.
    HD Tune
    Measure your harddisk and discover how much faster it is at the beginning than at the end.

    You can also test the registry hives access (fragmented and not) with RegBench.

    Good luck.
     
  3. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Do a little search on disk structure, and read on the concept of Cylinders, Tracks and sectors. I suspect knowing which part of the disk is the outer most, isn't that difficult.

    Pete
     
  4. Espresso

    Espresso Registered Member

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    Maybe, but how does the actual data layout relate to the single platter display model that most defraggers use in their interface?

    Edit: Is anyone familiar with the MS defrag API? Unless the API allows for specific platter writing, the defraggers that use the MS API will have limited control over where the data is placed.
     
  5. Espresso

    Espresso Registered Member

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    Actually, I asked the same question about multiple platter defragging a few months ago, but I didn't go as far as to say that defragging is worthless, just that the optimization methods are questionable depending on the limitations of the API to address specific platter locations.
     
  6. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I would take Disktrix-UD2008 disk diagram, and think of each track as a looking at the top of cylinders.
     
  7. Espresso

    Espresso Registered Member

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    Yes, that would make sense. Quite obvious, really. :oops:
     
  8. Bunkhouse Buck

    Bunkhouse Buck Registered Member

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    Good to see you are objective and not taking a position. I was a pioneer in the hard drive industry and I can tell you that I never saw one iota of proof that defragging is in any way efficacious relative to the claims being made by vendors.
     
  9. Bunkhouse Buck

    Bunkhouse Buck Registered Member

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    No luck involved. I have read all of the vendor's tests and we have performed extensive tests with my own engineers. No statistically significant improvement of access times, etc. with defragging. Some evidence that is can slow down some computers. I suspect the vendors are laughing at their customers behind closed doors.
     
  10. Bunkhouse Buck

    Bunkhouse Buck Registered Member

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    They won't because they don't have the science to back them up. Waiting for a reply will be like waiting for Godot. He never came in the play and you will get nothing from the software vendors. People accept things because they want to believe them (i.e. outer edge) and the software is incapable of defining what that outer edge entails. The claims by these vendors are bogus and they know it in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  11. Bunkhouse Buck

    Bunkhouse Buck Registered Member

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    You think?
     
  12. rdsu

    rdsu Registered Member

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    Fragmentation doesn't depends on file system used in storage media?
     
  13. tlu

    tlu Guest

    This article by heise-online says that defragging DOES have benefits - even for the Ext3 file system, at least if it is heavily fragmented. That should also apply to other file systems. But I agree that the effects of defragging are probably exaggerated if fragmentation is only modest.
     
  14. Bunkhouse Buck

    Bunkhouse Buck Registered Member

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    The claims are exaggerated a lot. and the gullible public accepts them without any objective substantiation.
     
  15. Arkham

    Arkham Registered Member

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    Regarding the file placement issue, it's clearly stated on a pdf available from Diskeeper's website that the file system has no control over where the file is put on the platter, and that the hard drive firmware is the decision maker.
    http://downloads.diskeeper.com/pdf/new-storage-technologies.pdf

    See the section titled Breaking Down the I/O path.

    I noticed that when describing i-faast, they refer to file sequencing and not placement.
    http://www.diskeeper.com/diskeeper/home/dk2009comparisonchart-home.aspx
    Intelligent File Access Acceleration Sequencing Technology [I-FAAST] 2.0 improves file access and creation on NTFS volumes by up to 80% above and beyond the improvement provided by defragmentation alone.

    When I-FAAST is enabled on a volume, Diskeeper runs specially-engineered benchmarks on the selected NTFS volumes to learn their individual performance characteristics. (Not all disks have the same characteristics.)


    I am still open minded about the file placement/whatever issue, but I don't need any convincing about pure defragmentation. I have seen the delay it takes to open 14mpixel RAW and TIFF files when they are fragmented, the slowdown in directory browsing and thumbnail generation etc...defragmentation clearly fixes this. If you have just a few files on the volume that are frequently modified, probably fragmentation is not a concern, but when I have a few thousand files that get modified frequently, defrag helps!:)
     
  16. rdsu

    rdsu Registered Member

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    This is in FAT, FAT32 and NTFS...
     
  17. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    i have a question Peter

    put the mtf inside the data ,for example in the middle of data , should preclude windows xp to menage the "reserved zone of mft"
    i mean xp increase or decrease the reserved zone of mft
    and if i put the mft inside data,framed inside the data ,it should preclude to menage the "reserved zone of mft" the yellow zone,should not it?

    it could be a problem for xp
     
  18. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I wouldn't put the mft reserve zone inside data. Not sure I can give you a technical reason. Just doesn't seem like a good idea. Windows will do what Windows does. PD offline defrag always puts the pagefile in a certain place. After a crash windows rebuilds it at it's place of choice.

    Pete
     
  19. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    so where did you put the mft?
    can i see a screenshot?


    from the manual
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  20. prius04

    prius04 Registered Member

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    Earlier in this thread, several of us wrote that UD's boot-time module was not functioning properly (it returned various error messages but never completed). IIRC, Peter posted that he, also, was experiencing that anomaly. Hopefully, the UD folks will soon release a new build in which the issue is resolved.
     
  21. Jo Ann

    Jo Ann Registered Member

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    Pete,

    Understanding those concepts was an integral part of my Computer-Science college education. Nevertheless, I don't see how UD or any defragger can possible know where the outer (or inner) tracks are for each disk platter of the many different HDD's their software encounters! So I'm still looking for a logical explanation.

    Btw, I have asked that of the DK, PD and UD tech-support groups, but I have never received any explanation.

    JA
     
  22. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    First Tech Support groups are there to help use the program, and they may not have that kind of knowledge.

    As to knowing. Lets see, Isn't track 0 the first track on the drive, and probably the outer most track. I would suspect also the next track would be track 1, then track 2, up to the number of track's which probably is listed in the bios. I can't see why it would be all that difficult to figure out which tracks are the outer most ones. When the drive reads the a file, and is told where to get the data, it has to be given a track no, sector no. etc. So where the data is available, by location, so I just don't believe it would be all that diffiicult to figure this out.

    Pete
     
  23. mantra

    mantra Registered Member

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    i did notice that after a boot defrag (i moved the mft)
    i run chkdsk /F C:
    where c: is the partition where i installed xp and performed the boot defrag
    in the log i found this

    does it happen to you too?
    how can i let ud team know this?
    can someone did a test like mine?

    thanks
    have a nice day
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
  24. Bunkhouse Buck

    Bunkhouse Buck Registered Member

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    They don't have an explanation because the software cannot discern it- therefore cannot control it.
     
  25. Primrose

    Primrose Registered Member

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    Good thread guys..everyone loves a mystery including me...Buck makes good sense for all he has posted..I remember similar discussion with my brother Dave years back when he ran the QC/Engineering dept at Seagate for new products..Now he flies around in the Corp Jet and is VP..I am going to hit him up again on some of these questions posed in the thread and see if he can come up with answers that make sense to everyone.
    I would give you my own opinion on many questions..but if it does not concern a nuclear magnetic moment of electrons in the outermost valance ring I would only be guessing.
     
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