The state of the Linux community

Discussion in 'all things UNIX' started by Mrkvonic, Aug 11, 2013.

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  1. tlu

    tlu Guest

    So you've never used Linux yourself?
     
  2. sdmod

    sdmod Shadow Defender Expert

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    No, just that these products (projects) should not be defined, constrained or distorted out of shape (to their own detriment) by monetary considerations, like "market share".
    It's not that I don't want to see interested input and support, I think that human interactivity is fantastic and generative but I believe that an obsessive monetary focus is the insideous worm that eats away at the growing apple and a "be all and end all" monetary philosophy is (in process and application) degenerative, ultimately dehumanising and destructive. I personally believe in a "shared load by consent and mutual interest" interactive model of development which does not necessarily rule out the use of money but is not the entire "raison d'être".
    There are so many of these over hyped, bloated, self aggrandizing, self perpetuating, institutionalised, software monoliths that hog the forefront of the Internet stage but I believe (when it boils down to it) people don't really care for them as much as the projected consensus says and they often end up hoisted by their own petard.

     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  3. sdmod

    sdmod Shadow Defender Expert

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    I've have tried to use Linux many (scores of) times but have found it (for me in many cases) counter intuitive and difficult in operation when I've grown with the Windows Operating systems and got used to that format.
    I've tried to like Linux from the beginning but could never really get to grips with it and make it do what I wanted or run the software that I was interested in. Even in the more modern mainstream versions I found it difficult to do even some of the more basic tasks. I'll probably keep trying every now and again. :)

     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  4. tlu

    tlu Guest

    Okay. Now imagine a person who's grown up with Linux/Unix and got used to that format (as you put it) tries Windows for the first time in his/her life. Wouldn't you think that she/he is running into the same problems mentioned by you?

    I myself had been using Windows XP (and 2000, NT, 95, 3.1 before) until I moved to Linux. When Windows 7 came out I installed it in Virtualbox - and guess what: I had considerable problems getting used to it because so much had changed since XP. I found it arcane, unfriendly, not logical, not easy enough to learn or use for most ordinary people's everyday needs.

    Oops - that's what you said about Linux :argh:
     
  5. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    Some still have little trust in it because they remember very well the few short years ago when it was "Nvidia or forget it", among many other software issues. Remember the problems with X? Remember the time before Steam came along and told people "Hey, gaming on Linux isn't out of the question"? Yeah, that wasn't in the distant past, it was 3-4 years ago and people remember. Linux won't be competitive until the big software vendors get behind it, and they aren't doing much of that.

    Open source does have its trust issues, I agree with that. I think we've all run across a project or two that was built shoddily, time wasn't put into it or it turned out to be not so innocent. But it has little to do with the big picture of why Linux, as it relates to this conversation, is failing to capture users.
     
  6. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    Linux doesn't need you though. You were "born into it" so to speak. You're not the targeted audience, Windows/Mac users are. At least they should be, as that is the one and only way to get both users and big vendors on board.

    One last thing I wanted to say about another comment I saw. Some folks may think that too much emphasis is placed on money. That's just too bad, welcome to reality where people have to eat, lights have to stay on, people need more reason than just "warm fuzzy feelings" to toil over code and take time out of their personal lives and so on.
     
  7. tlu

    tlu Guest

    Well, I was a Windows user, too, as mentioned. That there is a learning curve if you move to another OS should be a matter of course. Having said that, the learning curve for getting used to Unity was too steep for me as a KDE user :D :D :D
     
  8. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    I grew up with Windows too, but had no trouble using or adjusting to linux at all, and have been using it off and on for over 8 years now. Modern distros like Mint for example, are simple to use. You'd have to get more specific and actually list some of those things where "I found it difficult to do even some of the more basic tasks" for me to believe you...
     
  9. sdmod

    sdmod Shadow Defender Expert

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    Well I'm very pleased for you
    but
    regardless of whether you believe me or not, I found it difficult to do even some of the more basic tasks...if I had found it easy to do those tasks and if it had served my purposes then I would be a Linux user now and not worrying about when the big boys are going to nobble my xp sp3
    Another poster mentioned Wi***ws 7 8 etc They really were dreadful un user friendly monsters and only became vaguely useable to me after installing "Classic Shell".
    If I walked around the City where I live all day long and asked every person that I met on the way, what a "distro" was, I'm sure that nearly every single one of them would not have any idea at all.



     
  10. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    Which tasks?
     
  11. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    Money is ultimately needed for every software project.
    Even if the project does not have any revenue streams, there is still a cost to someone, always.
    Developers need food, electricity and a computer to work on these community projects. And non of it is free.
    Thinking about how to make a project economically sustainable (as the intention of Mrk's OP is) is very sensible IMHO.

    Cheers, Nick.
     
  12. sdmod

    sdmod Shadow Defender Expert

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    I can't remember the specifics, it's been about 6 months from last attempt. I have used Windows since 3.1 and consider myself an average user and have made attempts to install and run Linux to my satisfaction with various distros right from the outset but never yet succeeded. The nearest that I ever got to a success was running KNOPPIX - Live Linux on CD a long time ago.
    More recent attempts with Ubuntu I had problems understanding where everything was and the structure and terms seemed like Martian. As I remember there might have been network connection problems and difficulties understanding download procedures, how to create folders, rename folders, things like that..
     
  13. sdmod

    sdmod Shadow Defender Expert

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    I remember in the mid nineties, one of the first web mails was "Mailmasher" (very finished and useable) and the developer asked for ram and hardware to keep it running as the userbase grew as he did not have much cash. I'm not against "contributions" or input to support developing "projects". Interested parties could contribute in all sorts of ways but software developers that require lifestyle supporting income streams and are not playing to a broad public interest but to a niche group of aficionados will struggle unless some big monolith has spotted some potential for a more general use, maybe to furnish their own agenda to use or destroy.They might back it or buy you out and throws sacks of money your way.
    I'll never forgive them for buying out Powow, one of the best little communication programs on the planet serving a very vibrant community just to destroy it. :mad:
    Maybe you could support an unfinished niche product in long term development with a nice cheap but appealing user friendly concise utility product that would sell broadly and bring in a regular income.

     
  14. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    It's not just that I hate ads. I'm not willing to risk seeing them.

    For those who browse prudently, ads are the major vector for malware. It's very hard for site owners to monitor what ads are being shown. By the time they catch something evil, it's probably too late for at least one visitor. Right?

    What the Web needs, I think, is an easy-to-use micropayment system, so site visitors can transparently pay for each visit. Site owners could earn as much as they now get from ads, without annoying their visitors, or putting them at risk. Such a micropayment system could also fund open-source software, help control spam, etc. This is not a new idea.

    Bitcoin (and/or descendants such as Litecoin) could easily manage this. There's quite a market niche here, I think ;)
     
  15. Baserk

    Baserk Registered Member

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    The recent Ubuntu Edge crowdfunding project shows how users/consumers can actually acquire an ALL-surpassing smartphone (if only hardware spec wise; 4.3"sapphire screen quad-core/4GB/128GB/.../NFC, combining Android+Ubuntu for simultaneous Android smartphone and PC usage for some 525€/700$) by funding/donating, instead on waiting what the next vendor comes up with. (So much for just offering PayPal btw :rolleyes:).

    Someone wrote in this thread that the abundance of distros is problematic.
    Close to the bottom of the DistroWatch list of over 300 distros is RaspBMC, it offers solid and stylish performance on one the cheapest mediacenters (if you want it to be that) ever build.
    Supporting such an OS isn't philantropic as in saving a baby seal distro because it's cute. It's selfish. And for good reason, it allows to run a solid auto-downloading media center for the price of a T-shirt.
    Perhaps the term donations still evokes only a sentiment of just 'doing good' instead of applying purchase power to satisfy your geek/consumer/... requisites.
    These days you can acquire/fund/'co-develop' hardware and software for your specific needs instead of just waiting what will be sold to you and be pleased with that.
    I can appreciate the call to cherish those possibilities.
     
  16. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    The Edge project, which is still far away from its goal, shows the disadvantage and problem of relying on donations. We can go back and forth on what should happen, but the reality is that users are generally not donators.

    I was the one who brought up the number of distros. And I did so with the opinion that there can be such a thing as too much choice, especially where new users are concerned. Also, competition is wonderful, but there's very little in the way of competition in the Linux distro market. What that DistroWatch list shows is that there isn't so much real competition as there are a plethora of personal projects with 2-4 man teams and fly-by-nighters.

    Most of the big competitors like Mint are simply tweaked versions of the bigger players like Ubuntu and so on. That's not necessarily competition, but more like the difference between say, the U.S F-35 JSF and the Chinese J-31. Same plane, different build.
     
  17. Alec

    Alec Registered Member

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    Kyle, is it increasing? Not really. It's pegged by netmarketshare.com at a little over 1%, just as it pretty much has been for the past 15 or so years (see last two years below). On the bright side, market share isn't everything... if you like what you use, that's all that matters, right? Except someone, or some mechanism, has to give back to those developing the low-marketshare product that you like... or else it does risk withering away at some point. Now, I don't think anyone thinks that Linux will "wither away", because there is a very hardcore, diehard set of developers that will likely support it until the end-of-time; but the author still has valid points.

    And the sad thing is, I would agree with you... Windows 8 is a significant failure... but it still has a desktop marketshare that is nearly 5x that of Linux, and nearly equals that of Mac OS X. I do believe though that Microsoft has unknowingly created an opportunity for alternative OS's that hasn't fully been capitalized on, yet. Nearly all enterprise customers are still running Win7, but if Microsoft continues to focus on this goofy kindergarten / tablet / consumer / social mashup of an OS, at the expense of their enterprise customers... they may find OS desktop marketshare eroding quicker than they could ever have anticipated. Now I don't think that likely. Microsoft will do a course correction for enterprise customers, but with Win8 they have created a huge risk to their core business that didn't need to exist.
     

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  18. sdmod

    sdmod Shadow Defender Expert

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    Yes I agree. and particularly about Wi88do8s 8 style direction. A relative of mine who is an ordinary user (Office, Skype, Internet browse, chat, email work) who had become used to an XP style bought a new laptop with Wi88o8s 8 and has been confused by mobile phone style but dare not change it in case she breaks something. This is not the way to develop an operating system.
    If your company development strategy is lead by oportunistic knee jerk trend feelers who have no sense for the culture of the app or respect for their usership and who turn the ship towards any sniff of money without thought then this is what you end up with. A basically useless plastic duck of an operating system and that just annoys loyal users who would expect better.
    As for the development potential of Linux outside a small group of (no disrespect intended) geeks.
    Why would anyone want to grep something?
    The operating system is probably very good but most people will never ever use it in it's present form despite the "tasteful" frontages.
    Why?
    It's because
    1 the language used within it is like Martian to most ordinary people
    2 It's not intuitive
    3 It has a very geeky "feel"
    4 You get the sense that it is controlling you rather than you controlling it.
    5 The directory structure is not easily accessible and not in in plain English.
    6 It probably takes a long time to become comfortably familiar with it.
    7 Other people that you know in your social circle don't use it.
    8 Newbies can not progress easily.
    9 There is a lot of snobbery and elitism on the help forums.
    10 It does not run popular software or deliver it well
    11 Making adjustments to things is awkward

    Most people want a file to be called a file and a folder to be called a folder (or something like that) within a simple understandable logical structure
    Copying, pasting, deleting, moving, renaming of files and folders should be easy to understand and become familar to a new user easily
    The operating system should be able run all current apps and those be easy to install and not be limited to geeky wooden alternatives.
    The truth is most people do not see any benefit whatsoever in using Linux and any benefits that there actually are are so well hidden from ordinary people that it's not worth the effort.
    To make money or get significant market share a product needs to be broadly appealing and useable and the operating systems mentioned above are not.
    There would be a massive market for an upgraded xp style operating systemand forget mobile phone or geek architecture
    I think the best operating system ever (from a user perspective) as a foundation for sensible future development was Windows 2000


     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  19. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    A lot of comments in this thread have been about market share, Mrk was very clear that this topic is about sustaining projects, not about trying monetise by increasing market share trying to sell Linux as a product against competition. This is really missing the point in a big way, its about having the funds to lets projects and communities grow naturally with risk of hitting a critical mass and collapsing, which as illustrated has happened, not trying to make Linux a product and compete for market share against other products.
    It really does not matter how desktop Linux compares or performs to X, Y, Z or in features A, B, C - that part of what this discussion has become does not matter. Because even if desktop Linux is the best desktop OS ever for everybody, if the community that develops it can't be sustained it will collapse.

    Cheers, Nick
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  20. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    You might be missing the point of the previous posts, sustaining is about monetizing...because it's the only way Linux and just about every other large product and all companies can keep going. Donations will not work long term and no one works for free forever Not even Shuttleworth can sustain his company out of his own pocket forever, and so far he's the only one sustaining it. Market share=users=investors caring=money=continued development. Math and logic override "feel good causes". And sorry, again, users overall care about a product and how well it works for their use. How a company manages to provide such a product and its support is not really a concern of theirs. That's harsh, but that's reality.
     
  21. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    And how do you gain initial market share? With what? Miracles?
    Mrk
     
  22. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    You give people a reason to choose your product over theirs. If your product either works better than or as well as the competition (and not in the opinion of you, me, Wilders or Linux fans, but the majority of computer users), with no hoops to jump through, you've got yourself a good chance at success. If it's simply more convenient to with Windows over Linux, whether that be because of file compatibility or what have you, guess who gets picked? You also have to have the support of the various big wig hardware and software vendors..and they need a financial reason to support you. Pay them the contracts that MS and Apple pay, and there you go, off to a great start.

    Nobody ever said business was easy.
     
  23. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    How do you start a business? With a loan. Or a credit. Or a startup financing. That's how it works, and that's exactly how it should also work for all other relevant projects.

    For the product to be, you need bread & butter.
    If you can't pay those, no product.

    That's why so many Linux sites/projects have closed recently.

    Products can become superior if there's someone to work on them.

    Mrk
     
  24. mack_guy911

    mack_guy911 Registered Member

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    sdmod have you tried linux mint

    http://www.linuxmint.com/index.php

    thats what i am making the point
     
  25. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    A number of people having been talking about Linux as a product to compete in a market, the emphasis of Mrk's article is about funding the community rather than a product in which userbase/growth should come organically forced due to needs to make revenue and compete in some market place. :)

    Cheers, Nick.
     
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