Terms and Conditions

Discussion in 'privacy general' started by Checkout, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    While the likes of Lavasoft and Radlight fight it out (and believe me, I'm firmly on the side of Lavasoft) we users are forced to sit on the sidelines and take whatever is thrown at us.  And what's thrown at us are so-called Agreements - by clicking a button, we agree to waive our rights to criticise, forego our use of someone else's software, and accept spyware (and worse).

    These are not Agreements!  Agreements are where two parties make a mutually-acceptable contract; what we get instead are Impositions.

    The trouble is, when we go to a website, it's almost almost always a one-way transaction.  What Terms and Conditions can we impose on them?  None!

    ...Or can we?  :)

    Here's something I kicked around with SPY1 and PepiMK - see what you think.  If we can place the following text into the referrer field:

    "If you agree to me visiting your site, you accept the following terms and conditions:  you waive all your terms and conditions, except those of copyright and patent, and fair use of your products and services.  You acknowledge that you may not put tracking data anywhere on my computer without my express consent.  You waive any obligation on my part no matter what buttons or tick boxes you present.  If you disagree with these conditions, you must disconnect me immediately otherwise you will be deemed to have accepted them."

    - would we legally be free of outrageous terms and conditions?

    Your thoughts, please.
     
  2. snapdragin

    snapdragin Administrator

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    Checkout!  You must have be psychic!  i was just thinking that last night...wouldn't it be nice to have something on the browser (other than the personal information sites always want to gather)...that says "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" or something if they come into your pc!

    i know when i go into a store....i look....i see...i leave, and no one better be following me out that door asking me why or what i've got unless they've got a darn good reason for those questions!  ~l~

    sites invite surfers to "visit".....and just like in a store, if i choose to leave without purchasing anything...the last thing i want to do is get home and find out i've got something from the store i didn't want or asked for.  i like the freedom to leave without being frisked for leaving or someone taking down my personal information for visiting their store.  i won't go back again!

    so why do so many tolerate on line what they would never tolerate off line??  
    and why do on-line sites (stores, etc) attempt to do on line what they know legally and morally they should not be doing off line?

    what you, Spy1 and PepiMK came up with i'd love to have on my browser as the li'l "personal" bit of information a site would get from me instead of my real personal information.  wish i knew how to program things like that....but glad there are those out there who can! :)
     
  3. Mike_Healan

    Mike_Healan Registered Member

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    Bill Webb has had this "interesting" idea for a EULA for a while.

    Blah. I'd give the URL, but his site isn't loading right now. Anyhow, it's the software vendors license or some such. I'll come back later with the URL if someone doesn't beat me to it.
     
  4. javacool

    javacool BrightFort Moderator

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    NICELY put!  :) I agree with you 110% (no typo)!  ;)

    As far as a software solution goes, I do believe it would be interesting to edit the headers the site gets back. So in the tracking logs, instead of it saying "Win 98 / IE 6.0" etc., it would say that great quote Checkout, spy1, and PepiMK came up with.

    Could Proxomitron do something of this sort? (I'm sorry, but I just grabbed myself a copy today to check out - yes, I know, It's been quite a while.  ;)) If not, there's always the possibility of looking into another solution.

    -javacool
     
  5. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    I'm pretty certain Proxo can do this - but my knowledge of HTML isn't (yet) up to the job.  We need Zhen-Xjell!   Bring back Zhen-Xjell!
     
  6. Mike_Healan

    Mike_Healan Registered Member

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    Here it is. Take a gander at that.
    http://www.cexx.org/svla.htm
     
  7. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Rats, I can't get there 'cos of my company's firewall.  Any chance of IM-ing to me, please?

    Thx, Mike.
     
  8. Mike_Healan

    Mike_Healan Registered Member

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    Sent. Be warned, it's a big one.  ;)
     
  9. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Thanks, Mike.  For Javacool, here's a possible filter for The Proxomitron:

    In = FALSE
    Out = TRUE
    Key = "Referer: Send Terms and Conditions (out)"
    Match = "*"
    Replace = "If you agree to me visiting your site, you accept the following terms and conditions:  you waive all your terms and conditions, except those of copyright and patent, and fair use of your products and services.  You acknowledge that you may not put tracking data anywhere on my computer without my express consent.  You waive any obligation on my part no matter what buttons or tick boxes you present.  If you disagree with these conditions, you must disconnect me immediately otherwise you will be deemed to have accepted them."

    Merge it into your Proxo config - but at your own risk!  :)
     
  10. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    I put that filter in my own version of Proxo and nothing adverse seems to happen.  Is there someone here with a server who can help me test it, to see if it's being transmitted correctly?

    Many thanks.
     
  11. Mike_Healan

    Mike_Healan Registered Member

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    You can hit my homepage link, but it will be 2 or 3 days before the logs are compiled.
    I have to warn you, maybe it's just the way my logs work, but that entire statement might not get recorded. I've seen long custom referrers before in that log, and they always get cut off.
     
  12. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Mike, thanks, I'll do that.  In the meantime, may the stellar dogfleas of the crab infestation nebula regurgitate forcibly into the sore sphincters of both our friends and enemas, leaving only our friends feel cleansed by the experience.
     
  13. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    By the Seven Rings of Raggadore, 'tis done!  My Headrous Files of Foetid Checkout spell is cast upon thy Sir Ver logs, there to remain hence until expired or deleted.  Type of thing.

    Microwave Garlic Bread notwithstanding.  Nor shall the slyest of farts in a public elevator deter us from our task.

    Excelsior!

    Oh damn, I just realised I had the proxy turned off.  I'll try again.
     
  14. Oh, here we go again, cookie problem...the Ghost arises.

    Anyway, Mike, nice, well-laid out site, and I just registered.  I don't know how much time I can spend on visiting, but good job.
     
  15. Blacksheep

    Blacksheep Spyware Fighter

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    Hey Checkout,

    You can do some slick stuff to browser headers with A4Proxy. http://www.inetprivacy.com/

    Ya can run it in direct mode if ya donut wanna uz proxy.
     
  16. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Thanks, Blacksheep.  I've snarfed a copy of the demo and will play with it
     
  17. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Checkout,

    FYI: such a message does turn up in the logs from this site - thus it seems to function (not that we act accordingly of course  :D  )

    regards.

    paul
     
  18. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    Thanks Paul, but a deal's a deal - cough up 20,000 euros, as you agreed to by accepting the message.  I want the contents of your fridge too, especially if there's cold beer in there.

    Next time, don't accept strange headers!   :D

    Actually, this is an important point - does the notice have any validity?
     
  19. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Checkout,

    Sorry, don't have euro's; just bare gold  :D. The message has been forced upon us; we did not have a choice to agree or disagree...

    Didn't know people actually do use a fridge for other purposes than keeping beer..are you saying they do??

    ahh..that's the culprit indeed!

    regards.

    paul  
     
  20. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    This is an interesting point.  You have no control over whther or not to accept a user; you accept them all or none of them.  On the other hand, websites do not visit users.  Maybe this will form a defense against header-embedded Terms and Conditions, that and the fact that servers are not set up to examine referrer information for such a thing.

    However, servers do the same thing to users - by planting trackers without prior consent (bugs, cookies, etcetera) and by imposing conditions such as "by visiting this site you accept...blah..blah" which the user has no chance to avoid.

    Perhaps embedded headers need to be accompanied by a procedure which will notify by email the webmaster that an agreement was lodged.

    I think we need a legal eagle.
     
  21. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    Checkout,

    Seems like it  ;)

    regards.

    paul
     
  22. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    As an addendum,

    Interesting to note that "unreasonable terms" can be kicked out in the legal process.  Clip from http://news.com.com/2100-1023-891724.html in an item about reverse engineering.
     
  23. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    now, define "unreasonable terms" in a world wide legally accepted way...

    regards,

    paul  
     
  24. Checkout

    Checkout Security Rhinoceros

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    If you are a beer drinker, you must only drink Grolsch while our software is installed on your computer.  At the first taste of Heineken, you must uninstall the entire package.  This software is sponsored by Grolsch.  There are no fluid components in the material downloaded, you must supply this yourself.

    Hmmm... as for something unreasonable, that's a tough one!
     
  25. Paul Wilders

    Paul Wilders Administrator

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    LOL!  :D

    regards.

    paul
     
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