TDS software line discontinued

Discussion in 'Trojan Defence Suite' started by Wayne - DiamondCS, Jul 22, 2005.

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  1. beetlejuice69

    beetlejuice69 Registered Member

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    Now I`m not saying that`s what they did, I`m saying that`s what I`d do. :)
     
  2. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    How about we keep some level of rational discussion within this thread? Unsupportable , gratuitous, and idle speculation is really not helpful at all.

    Blue
     
  3. toad258

    toad258 Registered Member

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    After reading various reviews and visiting this forum I finally purchased the action pack and PG on the 14 th of June 2005.

    The reasons where a free upgrade to tds 4
    very good customer service
    very good forum (this one)

    Too bad its turned out to be a unlimited update of definitions of not even two months.

    Although I can understand the reasons given, I hope there will be a more suitable solutions for those who already own the software that's being given away.

    I am very curious what the future will bring, and wish you all the best.

    greetings toad258
     
  4. Don Pelotas

    Don Pelotas Registered Member

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    How can you say that there was no misleading people? TDS-4 whatever the excuses now, has been promissed for many months (years in fact), when ever a question about it's availability was asked by a prospective buyer/user, the answer was always, just buy TDS-3 the upgrade to TDS-4 is free, there's no need to wait!! If thats not misleading the users, then i don't know what is?

    I'm a DiamondCS costumer (Process Guard) and i'm very happy with that, and don't wish to see Wayne & co go down, but if i were a TDS-3 costumer who had bought it within the last 4-6 months i would feel ahem.....frustrated, if i didn't get a free upgrade or a discount to this new flagship product mentioned, instead of offering an extra PG & PE to the users who in many cases already have bought this.

    I can understand the many users in this thread who bought TDS-3 some years ago feeling less frustrated with this decision, but what about those who have bought within the last 6 months on the promis that TDS-4 was around the corner and there was reason to wait because the upgrade was free? They now are left with nothing, exept a perhaps a PG or PE license which might be useless to them and their needs, if they were fast mind you. ;)

    Again i'm costumer who have been satified with support etc, but i wish they would have handled this better, like giving users the option to upgrade to this new behavior type program or whatever it is, if they wanted to, instead of the timelimited PG/PE offer.

    Like everybody else in this thread i wish DCS good luck with the future projects, who knows we may think two years from now that as Kevin McAleavey says: This was the best decision, maybe even for the costumers.

    I do have one question though: This program that apparantly is literally just around the corner, is this a TDS-4 kind of corner........ ;) :D
     
  5. Smokey

    Smokey Registered Member

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    Don,

    Thanks for your clear point of view.

    I feel/see it the same way.
     
  6. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    Don,

    I cannot speak for others, but I did try to emphasize as I always do, buy for what the program is today, not what is promised tomorrow. If one did that, purchased TDS3 for TDS3, one received a top flight application which performed well in its lifetime with the understanding one would not have to pay an additional sum to upgrade in the future. That last proviso is now moot. However, based on what was known at the time, it was decent advice, and the same advice that I'd offer to anyone else today.

    As for the recent purchasers, that's only an issue DCS can handle. There's a whole collection of issues here including whether they already own the offered alternate programs, how long they've been an owner and so on. It is probably best pursued off-line on a case-by-case business.

    With respect to the future programs, DCS does offer, and I assume will continue to offer, standing discounts to existing customers based on the number of programs owned.

    Blue
     
  7. Kevin McAleavey

    Kevin McAleavey Security Expert

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    *IF* you happen to be referring to what we're doing as far as OUR "future" that's already been in the works for about a month now, despite the mayhem on our end. If you're referring to TDS, I apologise for interjecting then ...

    No, BOClean will remain BOClean, designed to deal with "just came in" as well as "I bought it because I'm ALREADY infected" situations. We've promised free upgrades for the 4.xx versions, and SHOULD a 5.xx come along (unlikely) then we will STILL support the 4.xx version "promise" for at least the next four years as people have always expected BOClean to be, with of course the most current requirements for how it works.

    What is IN the works however, is something a bit more ... "proactive." BOClean was always intended throughout the years as something small, fast and unobtrusive for system admins to distribute to "clueless desktop cube farm users" to just make bad stuff simply go away sans fanfare, "set it and forget it, leave the damned helpdesk alone, we're too busy explaining to adminiswigs, docudoids and deputy junior wiglets that the "C:>" prompt is NOT a test to determine if you can guess what "C is larger than." Simply put, BOClean was a completely automatic (and most often invisible) "go away" to all those desktops in the event that the antivirus didn't or couldn't detect and remove a (as they think) "simple virus" and throw up "unable to disinfect" calls to the helpdesk. THAT is what OUR customers always wanted and got. Install it and worry about OTHER things.

    That functionality needs to remain, but we've gotten better at other things over the versions such as repairing damaged LSP stacks, cleaning key registry entries, and dealing with "rootkits." But things are about to head in a TRULY ugly direction if what we've seen of IE7 is actually distributed. And despite our successes in using undocumented tricks to be able to access the kernel from user level, I fear that ending if "VISTA" (which rhymes with "blista") is actually what they're going to ship. If so, we'se in DEEP poo. We're PLANNING on it. Simply put, if "XP" caused "Xtra Pain," then what we've seen of "VISTA" can only make OSAMA proud. Bad stuff runs, good stuff doesn't. And 64 bits ain't necessarily 64 bits. :(

    ANY "evil vendor" who isn't already ahead of this curve will suffer the wrath of hundreds, thousands or whatever they sold. And folks won't accept "hey I"m too busy to fix that right now" ... I mean, look at all of the hoohah about "Process Guard and BOClean are eating my CPU" ... it never WAS BOClean or ProcessGuard, it was cheesy antivirus programs hogging the system and not liking having any "companionship" by their design and failing to play nicely in the sandbox. DCS and US took it in the ear for a few OTHER bad apples doing stupid things. :(

    "INTERESTING times ahead, KEEP RIGHT" ... Some of us are poised to deal with it, others? Well ... :)
     
  8. Starrob

    Starrob Registered Member

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    Ok....glad you explained because you almost sounded like you wanted to jump off a bridge in your first post.....or maybe even possibly go to work at Wal-Mart's.

    In any case, intentions aside (For it is likely DCS "intended" to truly release TDS-4). I think all AT software companies would be well to closely observe the changing landscape of the AT industry and not get too much tunnel-vision in the lab.

    I think Andy Grove spelled this out in a way for all businesses in the book, "Only the Paranoid Survive". Here is a quote from Amazon.com:

    "Amazon.com
    Massive change is hitting corporate America at a furious and escalating pace, writes Andrew Grove in Only the Paranoid Survive, and businesses that strive hard to keep abreast of the transition will be the only ones that prevail. And Grove should know. As chief executive of Intel, he wrestled with one of the business world's great challenges in 1994 when a flaw in his company's new cornerstone product -- the Pentium processor -- grew into a front-page controversy that seriously threatened its future."

    I think this industry might possibly be making a shift and I hope the people that are called "the Good Guys" on this board will keep close tabs on the shifts, so that customers won't have to endure broken promises.

    I hope that TDS-3 going away shows developers that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver rather than the opposite. In the future, I ask all security software devlopers to be more careful with what is promised. I know sometimes the developers might get caught up in the hype of their own "babies" but I am hoping that business sense will prevail in future situations.

    I think more than a few people consider themselves hurt by the broken-promise of TDS-4, whether intentional or not.




    Starrob
     
  9. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    I personally believe there's been dishonesty here by DCS. Why?

    For one, it seems that this program 'that's just around the corner' must have been worked on for some time now in order to be 'just around the corner' all the while us being led to believe that they were urgently working on TDS 4!!! If that's not misleading and deceiving then what is?

    If they had no time because TDS 4 was being worked on then how come this new program is almost ready?

    I for one don't trust DCS anymore because they seem to be saying one thing (TDS 4 being worked on) and doing another (making another program instead).

    It could also be a marketing ploy. What might be going on is that this new program was actually TDS 4 but a few 'changes' have been made to it to make it look and feel like a new program so that the promised ' free upgrade' would not have to be delivered and in it's place a clone TDS 4 with a different name but that has to be 'purchased' will be released instead thus bringing in income whereas a TDS 4 upgrade given away for free would not have made any profit. I believe DCS are deliberately reneging on their free upgrade offer and want to get out of that policy pronto.

    I think their accountant has told them that offering free upgrades is not financially viable and they want to turn this around so TDS 4 was first and other programs will most certainly follow. I believe they'll eventually or as soon as possible scrap the free upgrade policy on all programs because it is costing them too much in lost income.

    In order to kill the free upgrade policy they'll have to change other programs so much that they become 'new programs' and thus must be purchased again.

    I think that you'll see this policy eventually phased out and that the new programs might offer a year of free upgrades instead. Wormguard 4 might be free but the version after might change over to yearly upgrades and so on.

    I can live with that because every software business now charges for 'renewals' for yearly upgrades but the TDS 4 saga was handled wrongly because we were promised again and again and left waiting for years only to be told now it's not coming but to be sure to look out for their new products 'just around the corner' - products we must of course buy, forfeiting our 'free upgrade'.

    Unlike some others, I have bought all of DCS products but have never ever had a 'free upgrade' of anything. As far as I'm concerned it's just a market strategy to get people to buy but in fact in 2 and a half years I've yet to receive my first so called 'free upgrade'.

    Dave
     
  10. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    One of the reasons I bought TDS 3 was the free upgrades and now I have lost both and offered programs I already have!! I'm furious!!!

    Dave
     
  11. Kevin McAleavey

    Kevin McAleavey Security Expert

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    PRECISELY the reason why I've been compelled to say all the things I've said here in the first place - not to toot OUR horn, but rather to explain WHY Wayne's decision was so WISE. And WHY it will result in MUCH better things out of DCS now unburdened by an "albatross" ... with our CORPORATE licensees, there's a discount for hundreds or thousands of BOCleans, and why we do CUSTOM builds of it for specifics, FOR A CHARGE.

    The "institutional" license for BOClean expires after 3 years. At such time, they have to buy it again at half price for another 3 years. But these "large" sales provide "economy of scale" as part of the difference in the price has to do with WHO supports the "end user." If, for 3,000 sales, we make as much as we do for 300 "individuals" we have that 300:1 ratio on the "dumb questions" side. It's up to THEIR helpdesk to answer, "I got A "BETTERNET16" detected. What does this mean?" and their IT department will promise to come and take away their computer if they don't accept the "Is it gone? Don't call this number again" solution. If *WE* did that with a panicky individual, we'd be slammed all over the groups for being 'arrogant.'" Perfectly OK for the glass house geeks though - they KNOW where you surfed on copmpany time, you will NOT challenge them. :)

    That's what I meant about the "costs" (above and beyond what we get paid for) of supporting individuals, answering dumb questions as politely and amusingly as possible, and our lowest priority owing to time constraints, "hitting the groups" ... taking care of the corporates is CHEAP! To add to the fun though, a few "discounters" got "corporate licenses" and have resold to INDIVIDUALS at a discount. If any one thing has hurt us more, it's all those people who got BOClean for cheap, we don't get notified that they got a copy for two months or more and they're mad at US because nobody told us they bought a copy or paid us for it.

    Wonder why I have fantasies of "selling paint and going home at 5PM like 'normal folk?'" :)
     
  12. spy1

    spy1 Registered Member

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    Frankly, I consider what DCS has done in this situation to be nothing less than a total disaster as far as their reputation goes.

    They promised the new TDS-4 program for years - free to their exisiting TDS-3 customers.

    They lied.

    The excuse about having to tie up so much research time and band-width in updates doesn't fly - as Jooske pointed out, all those expenses could have been covered by charging an annual fee for updates to pay both for bandwidth and extra personnel. I'd go so far as to say that everyone both expected and would have been quite content with that scenario.

    The ones who really got screwed over were the ones who bought TDS-3 either recently or only after being assured that they'd get a free update to TDS-4 when it came out. I and a lot of others promoted the purchase of TDS-3 to a lot of other people - based partly on that guarantee - and I'd like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to everyone who followed my advice. I was wrong and I'm sorry.

    The "sop" offer of a license for either PG or Port Explorer is an even greater insult to those of us who've already purchased those programs (either as an "Action Pack" or separately).

    You offer us nothing in return for either our brand loyalty/patronage or our un-flagging promotion of TDS over the years.

    Thank you.

    We'll remember that.

    And best of luck to you in the future when you're trying to get new customers to trust either the DCS organization, your word or your "new" (whatever-it-is) product. Pete
     
  13. Don Pelotas

    Don Pelotas Registered Member

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    Hi Blue & Joske

    First i would like to make clear that i was not in any way trying attack Joske, she just happened to be the one using the word "misleading", and i therefore brought up what seems to me to be a valid point, nothing more nothing less, as i said i'm actually a satisfied costumer of Process Guard so this is not about me trying to stir things, i just saw something that i disagreed with and spoke my mind with no malicious intent.
    I agree, i just wish they had offered a plan for everybody, instead of case by case. One thing that would i think sweetened this would have been a scenario where those who purchased within say the last 6-12 months get a license to this new anti malware program (any info this btw) for free, and the rest 20-50% discount. Well just my 2 cents, nothing more nothing. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2005
  14. Starrob

    Starrob Registered Member

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    One thing that I think has a high probability of happening is that many that call themselves AT companies today might not be around beyond 4 years. I have a feeling maybe only 2 or three might survive in some form.

    I pick BoClean as one of those that will be around in some form (Not necesarrily producing a AT). I will let others speculate on the others that might be around.

    My favorite theory at this point is that there will be Anti-malware scanners, companies the build IDS/Generic detection/pro-active detection and those that build specialized security related products.



    Starrob
     
  15. Rainwalker

    Rainwalker Registered Member

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    Hmmmmm.........now there's a thought..........indeed :)
     
  16. Don Pelotas

    Don Pelotas Registered Member

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    I was speaking about this new DCS product, sorry for not being clear on that. It was just an attempt at being funny, i usually fail miserably when doing that ;), but as an BOClean costumer i thank you for the heads up on future products, and yes, i wil be buying that too as i'm thoroughly pleased with BOClean, i dont really need a scanner, but like to support companies that among others you & your company belongs to in my book, but the proactive stuff sounds very interesting. :)
     
  17. richrf

    richrf Registered Member

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    Very good plan Don. Makes lots of sense to me, from many different perspectives.

    One thing about running a small company, is that it is really tough making good business decisions all of the time. I've learned to give people some slack. It's good for the soul. :)

    I hope DiamondCS accepts these type of constructive ideas, and reconsiders its initial plan. Every company, large and small, has these type of issues in their history. For example, frequently, airlines will announce a price increase only to roll it back after getting feedback from customers. Reconsideration is always appropriate when other ideas are put forward which make sense.

    Cya,
    Rich
     
  18. Starrob

    Starrob Registered Member

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    Yes....by the way....if BoClean is really developing some sort of pro-active protection, I would be interested in looking at it. Looks like the battle might shift from who has the best AT to who has the best Behavioral defense.

    Maybe a year from now people will forget about all this AT scanner stuff and will be debating who has the best behavioral modification. Will it be a2 or Boclean or DCS new product. Let's starting the Ego butting debate now!!! LOL



    Starrob




     
  19. controler

    controler Guest

    I also purchased the action pac. plus PG

    I will wait for their e-mail about those of us that allready have all their software before I say too much. I also only bought it because of the
    TDS-4 promise.

    I will say this though. As far as I am concerned, The ONLY thing that saved DCS & is saving them now
    WAS their release of PG.

    controler
     
  20. Smokey

    Smokey Registered Member

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    New DCS anti malware program?

    The main issue now is: how to trust an company when they are announcing another new exciting project, when they don't keep their promises other projects concerning?

    And when the new anti malware program is on the market, can or must we believe that program have a future and not an exit like TDS?

    I'm an loyal DCS customer, year after year.

    Now I think in an total other direction.

    IMO DCS was a reliable company, but after the TDS melt-down I have other thoughts.


    Spy1 wrote: "Frankly, I consider what DCS has done in this situation to be nothing less than a total disaster as far as their reputation goes.

    They promised the new TDS-4 program for years - free to their exisiting TDS-3 customers.

    They lied."

    He is right.


    Don Pelotas wrote: "How can you say that there was no misleading people? TDS-4 whatever the excuses now, has been promissed for many months (years in fact), when ever a question about it's availability was asked by a prospective buyer/user, the answer was always, just buy TDS-3 the upgrade to TDS-4 is free, there's no need to wait!! If thats not misleading the users, then i don't know what is?"

    He is right too.
     
  21. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    I second that 100%. Couldn't have been better put Pete! One other very important thing to remember - how is it that this 'new program' is 'almost ready'o_O?? Weren't they telling us they were working exclusively on TDS 4o_O

    Not only lies but DCS have been caught with their pants down. Now I have nothing. No TDS 3 and no replacement as I have bought ALL their products.

    Jooske, I know you must be very upset but how many times did you and all moderators and DCS tell us to be 'patient'. And we were patient. What for?? To become saints? In the end we got nothing at all for all this 'patience', in return for our loyalty, understanding and patience.

    Matter of fact we lose TDS 3 and our free upgrade especially for those who have never ever had a free upgrade and now get told to be ready to buy new programs!! And you are asking us again to be patient? We have already been tremendously let down and should not have to be put through all this nonsense. This is very unprofessional behaviour by DCS towards those who have stuck by them through thick and thin and been extremely patient. Now is not the time for patience but for some justice and fairness.

    I am a disabled pensioner and a free upgrade was very important to me. Now I'm told I lose it AND TDS 3 and am left in the lurch.

    Dave
     
  22. controler

    controler Guest

    These type decisions are not made overnight for whatever reason.

    This could very well turn out to be a pandores box. something like a can a worms.

    Kevin has now stated how things have changed since offering lifetime updates.
    Some things are unforseen as this latest development.
    I am sure now that all new programs will charge for updates.

    I don't know what the law says about all this and really don't care.

    Kevin say the single users are not his priority or bread & butter?

    Kinda freaks me out that he is producing "custom built" software for foreign
    governments.

    Now we single users need to make a decision as to weather we want to keep
    BoClean & volunteer to pay yearly subscription fees or ?

    The more I look at this thread the more peed I am becomming :mad:

    Why is there still a BUY NOW link on the DCS website?

    controler
     
  23. JohnS

    JohnS Registered Member

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    Sorry to hear this.
    What are you going to do about us who have paid $50 in advance for TDS-4?
    And I already paid for and own ProcessGuard & Port Explorer.
    Thanks!
     
  24. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    If they come out with some sort of 'malware guard' you can bet it was TDS 4 Guard but with the name changed so as to avoid giving out the 'free upgrades'. There's something very foul here.

    Dave
     
  25. worldcitizen

    worldcitizen Registered Member

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    It looks to me like the TDS 4 Scanner was dropped and the Guard is ready but they do not want to honour the upgrade policy so they might just have changed it's name to avoid honouring the policy.

    As it stands now we might be expected to buy what really is TDS 4 Guard under another alias otherwise why have they been telling us they were exclusively working on TDS 4 when they were really making 'something else'? Maybe the Guard is that 'something else' but will be renamed in order to avoid honouring the free upgrade offer. I bet this new program does exactly what TDS 4 Guard was supposed to do.

    Dave
     
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