Security-vendor snake oil: 7 promises that don't deliver

Discussion in 'other anti-malware software' started by ronjor, May 12, 2014.

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  1. ronjor

    ronjor Global Moderator

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  2. SIR****TMG

    SIR****TMG Registered Member

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    A good read indeed...Thank You.....
     
  3. harshisthere

    harshisthere Registered Member

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    Even if I am the few of the last person to get infected by a virus. I am thinking to shift to linux to give an early start. Linux still has not broken well into the persona desktop market but things are looking bad for Windows. I hate the overhead of security software. Botched Windows update is another headache. Slow update process. The only reason I was in favor of windows is because Microsoft has the money to pay talented developers to code for them and come out with better software.
     
  4. Rompin Raider

    Rompin Raider Registered Member

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    Enjoyable read Kemo Sabe...Thanks!
     
  5. DoctorPC

    DoctorPC Banned

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    Let us know when you come screaming back to Windows after your mis-adventures with Linux. I don't know a single person IRL that stuck with Linux. It's not the Utopian operating system you believe it is. Things are looking bad for Windows? 8.1 is easily the best WindowsOS ever released, and in fact - many consider it the best OS out there. Sorry but Linux will NEVER, EVER capture a significant portion of the desktop market. Ever, it won't happen, period. Linux fans have been claiming it is 'inevitable' and 'forthcoming' for decades, and it hasn't increased in marketshare substantially over those decades, even with the introduction of stable, professional distros, and platforms like Steam supporting it. It never will friend, might as well enjoy 8.1.
     
  6. Veeshush

    Veeshush Registered Member

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    Also see this thread:
    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/windows-user-wanna-try-linux-checklist.363044

    All that said, and completely agreeing Linux would never surpass Windows in marketshare- it just depends on the hardware itself and what the person wants to do with it. There are some benefits with Linux beyond just having a low market share and being lower risk from badware that targets the largest user base. One that I really like is the ability (depending on the distro) to update all installed software- including browsers and plugins. AppArmor and SELinux.

    But on the topic of snakeoil, I don't get the mindset that running Linux completely eliminates all threats like people make it out to every single time there's a security issues topic (like this one).
     
  7. Gullible Jones

    Gullible Jones Registered Member

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    @DoctorPC, I love the attitude. IMO Linux is not a viable option for a lot of users, but I don't see the need to actively discourage people from trying it if they have the time and the desire.

    @Veeshush, I haven't seen much of that in recent years. IIRC I've seen more stuff lately bemoaning how Linux is really insecure (it is, but so is everything else) and absolutely requires realtime antivirus software (it doesn't, but neither does anything else).

    The reality is that a smaller user base does (right now) mean less malware for desktop users. If the user base does get larger I wouldn't expect that to last, though.
     
  8. DoctorPC

    DoctorPC Banned

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    The one shining love I have for linux is that repository, which includes drivers/plugins. It can't be beat!

    Otherwise? Not much there for me.
     
  9. FreddyFreeloader

    FreddyFreeloader Registered Member

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    "Security snake oil No. 3: 100 percent accurate antivirus softwareAlso akin to the claim of unbreakable software is the claim from multiple vendors that their anti-malware detection is 100 percent accurate. And they almost all say this detection rate has been "verified independently in test after test." - Gee, wonder what AV company uses that line? :mad:
     
  10. wat0114

    wat0114 Registered Member

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    The author is, like so many others who write about their effectiveness, at least to some degree, ignorant regarding firewalls.
     
  11. whitedragon551

    whitedragon551 Registered Member

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    Sounds like you found the Windows 8 snake oil. Theres a reason after 2 years of being available to general public that Windows 8 (all versions) is still only at 12% market share, Win7 at almost 50%, and XP the remaining on Windows based PC's.
     
  12. DoctorPC

    DoctorPC Banned

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    Market penetration = quality? Check.. Err. Wait.. Casio outsells Longines Waters - 99 to 1.. Must mean Casio is superior, right? Oh wait. People keep citing sales, and marketshare numbers like they actually mean anything.

    Yet when asked 'directly' to cite why Windows7 is better than 8.1x, they cannot find a single reason. Thread after thread, I can find no compelling argument, all I hear is 'but but, it's not selling well!'. Even logging indicates Win8x crashes 55-65% less than Win7 doesn't convince? Not much else will - not even the amazing task manager, 10 second boots, and improved security? Yup, it's all about 'marketshare', right?
     
  13. whitedragon551

    whitedragon551 Registered Member

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    It is about market share. I have yet to see you provide 1 reason why its superior to Win7. All I see is nuthugging.
     
  14. DoctorPC

    DoctorPC Banned

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    One? I've provided over a dozen in other threads, such as;

    1) Task Manager, it's so superior in Windows 8x that it is the equivalent of paid process/startup managers.
    2) Boot/Shutdown Speeds - 1-2 seconds to shutdown, and 10-12 seconds to boot up. This alone makes Win8.1 a vast improvement.
    3) Speedy interface, none of the glass nonsense, everything opens faster, and smoother.
    4) Less BSoD's and Hanging applications. Fact is, Windows 8.1x doesn't crash. The average user reports 1.2 hangs a month vs 30-60 on Windows7.
    5) Color reactive desktops. Nuff said.
    6) Secure booting on UEFI systems.
    7) 15% Smaller Footprint over Win7.
    :cool: Desktop Snap, Paned Desktops/Applications.
    9) Automatic application updates.
    10) Slideshow, graphical, customizable lock screens.
    11) Incredible multi-monitor support.
    12) Facebook App, like the mobile one.

    There's a dozen.. Seriously easy stuff.
     
  15. whitedragon551

    whitedragon551 Registered Member

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    So far you have listed nothing but personal preference. Market share means alot more than personal preference. Even if personal preference held weight. Market share shows that the majority of users disagree with your preferences.

    1) Same exact data, different layout when compared to windows 7. Only new feature is startup management. Personal preference.
    2) I never have issues booting or shutting down win 7. I boot win 7 to desktop within 7-8 seconds.
    3) Also no issues with slow interface ever.
    4) Never had a BSOD in Win 7 that was caused by something other than myself. I have had tons of AMD catalyst drivers that crash all the time in Windows 8 where they didnt in Windows 7.
    5) Personal preference
    6) Personal preference again
    7) Who cares? Disk space is cheap.
    8 )Also in Windows 7
    9) A feature of the application not Windows 8 itself. Also terrible. Wait until you get a buggy update.
    10) Can also do this on Win 7. Personal preference again.
    11) Ive never had issues with multiple monitor support in Win 7. Personal preference yet again.
    12) Facebook is a reason Win8 is superior? Is this a joke?

    I find it hard to believe your a systems engineer with your logic and lack of thought out responses. You have yet to provide any reasoning on why Win8 is better over Win7 other than personal preference. How about some real proof? Prove Win8 is better at a Kernel level where it actually counts and personal preference doesnt impact reasoning?
     
  16. subhrobhandari

    subhrobhandari Registered Member

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    Please stay on topic and dont turn this into an A vs. B thread.
     
  17. sas_dave

    sas_dave Registered Member

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    I've worked IT in the past (in smaller companies) and I never relied on typical security measures to be bulletproof. I'd imagine most IT good folks know this and just buy into the claims so they can pass the buck when it hits the fan!

    When SUPERAntiSpyware was new (and malware was called spyware, hah!), it really did come close to catching most of the spyware out there. For the last half decade or so we've known that it's just not possible anymore. The tagline for SAS was even changed from "Removes ALL the spyware, NOT just the easy ones" to just "Removes spyware, NOT just the easy ones". For many years now we've been telling customers that a single solution is never enough. All the scanners out there are pretty good at detecting what they have definitions for! But even fifty scanners won't catch everything... That's why recently we've been adding other ways in SAS to identify & remove malware to fill in the gaps when scanning doesn't catch everything. We want SAS to continue to be a useful tool for malware removal and I like that we stay away from snake oil claims.
     
  18. Gein

    Gein Registered Member

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    There was a problem, I believe they may have fixed it by now, but I'm not sure. Where gaming mice were locked into running at a much lower frequency with an update to windows 8.1. I think they were forced to run at 150 or 250hz rather than the native 1000hz that these mice were capable of. This problem persisted for a very long time, and I think they came up with some sort of registry tweak that you had to use for every single game you played. If you were gaming at all 8.1 was not an option, and as I haven't heard anything about it being fixed completely -- I want my mouse to run on my desktop at 1000hz as well, not just when I start a game, until I know otherwise, I will not upgrade.
     
  19. DoctorPC

    DoctorPC Banned

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    No idea about this hz stuff with mice.. I install something, and play it.. Does it really make that much of a difference? As someone with roughly 550 games, I cannot say I have heard of this, or that it seems to be an issue.
     
  20. Gein

    Gein Registered Member

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    It affects the smoothness of your mouse, so you'd notice a drop from say 500-1000 all the way down to 150.

    There's a fix apparently: http://www.blurbusters.com/systemwide-fix-win81-mouse-fluidity/

    But people are saying the mouse movement is weird even with the hotfix:

    "Earlier this week, I upgraded from Windows 8 to Windows 8.1.
    I immediately noticed fluidity problems, even when dragging windows or dragging scrollbars.

    Even with the Microsoft’s gaming mouse fix (KB 2908279 and KB 2908279), dragging windows and dragging scroll bars is NOT as smooth as before. Just doing these fixes alone, DID NOT solve the problem alone. Something more had to be done. Knowledgeable in math, also a hobbyist vision researcher, and as a display tester — Microsoft made a miscalculation here thinking 1000Hz mice was useless at the desktop.

    With a 1000Hz mouse, everything ran very smoothly and window movements was really smooth. Now the report rate seems to be limited to 100Hz or 200Hz, and that creates some nasty framerate-aliasing effects with 120hz and 144Hz. Microsoft should have kept Window dragging at full mouse report rate (500Hz or 1000Hz), because of less framerate-aliasing (stutter) with the monitor’s refresh rate.

    One could easily keep the mouse report rate at 1000Hz and take:
    - At 120Hz, every 8 or 9 out of the 1000Hz mouse (1/120sec= 8.3ms)
    - At 144Hz, every 7 or so out of 1000Hz mouse (1/144sec = 6.9ms)
    - At 60Hz, every 16 or 17 out of 1000Hz mouse (1/60sec = 16.7ms)
    In these situations, the mathematic error is only 1 millisecond worth of mouse movement. e.g. At a mouse movement of 2000 pixels/second, 1000Hz means about 2 pixels per mouse movement. So the mouse mis-positioning error (if a mouse position “rounds-off” to the wrong refresh) is as little as only 2 pixels.

    However, I feel that Microsoft messed up and chose a report rate of 100Hz or 200Hz during Windows manipulation (dragging windows, dragging scroll bar, etc) which is noticeably less clear than before. At 200Hz, you’ve a math error of 5 millisecond worth of mouse movement. e.g. At a mouse movement of 2000 pixels/second, 200Hz means about 10 pixels per mouse movement. So the mouse mis-positioning error (if a mouse position “rounds-off” to the wrong refresh) is as huge as 10 pixels (relative to where the human eye is tracking, when smoothly dragging a window, while tracking your eyes on it). Mis-positioning errors show up as continuous stutters."
     
  21. DoctorPC

    DoctorPC Banned

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    You've given me an engineeringasm. I'm going to investigate this further..

    This is something I was entirely unaware of, now I must digest!
     
  22. Osaban

    Osaban Registered Member

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    Interesting article. Here at Wilders, layered security has been our mantra for years, it would be foolish for a security oriented user to trust any AV program as the sole defense. I also agree firewalls are largely overrated. It is a pity the author (as expected!) didn't name any of these companies with flamboyant claims...It is also true that nobody can really state with certainty that their computer is 100% malware free, IMO only behavioral patterns in the machine's performance might give some clues, although powerful computers may be unaffected...
     
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