Schneier naive on NSA corruption?

Discussion in 'privacy problems' started by JackmanG, Sep 6, 2013.

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  1. JackmanG

    JackmanG Former Poster

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    I think this comment hit it on the head:

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/conspiracy_theo_1.html

    Really, read Schneier's piece and then the comments. It really is kind of surprising how a guy with the expertise and an intellect as sharp as his could see and understand so much of the overall situation we face, and yet still be so naive.
     
  2. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    It's hard to say.

    If enough engineers start leaking what they know, maybe not.

    This could get really ugly :(
     
  3. siljaline

    siljaline Former Poster

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    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...calls-for-more-to-reveal-govt-spying-methods/
     
  4. Hungry Man

    Hungry Man Registered Member

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    Keep in mind that the NSA has spent the last two decades investing in the security and particularly the crypto community. So yes, people in that community who had worked with them did come to trust them, because for that long amount of time it seemed to make sense. Unfortunately for the NSA that's all over.
     
  5. Grassman20

    Grassman20 Registered Member

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    I think it's going to get very ugly and the NSA will lose this war with the internet. They've positioned themselves as an adversary and I've never seen people so united against a common threat.

    Periodically, people have to wake up and defend their liberties. This has been a long time coming and I'm looking forward to it.
     
  6. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    There's nothing naive about what he said, but understand one thing very well. The people have to back them up, not just be spectators cheering them on from the sidelines. Engineers can't do it alone. They can supply the tools, info, etc but we have to distribute and use it. If we don't, they stuck their necks out for nothing and we all lose.
     
  7. Hermescomputers

    Hermescomputers Registered Member

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    Unfortunately everyone who helped build the Internet, including those who provide support did contribute to this mess...

    The US government has betrayed the internet. We need to take it back
    The NSA has undermined a fundamental social contract. We engineers built the internet – and now we have to fix it
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying

    There is only one thing to do is to unite against it... Fight we will.
    However it's not going to be easy to convinced joe average to give up income in exchange for freedom and liberty. $$$ is what this is all about, getting paid for service and engineering, regardless of the purpose and it's consequences...

    The most enlightening statement I have ever eared is this:

    What would you prefer, true democracy or money to spend?
    We essentially did what Castro said, when he said "The capitalists will out compete each others on selling us the rope we will use to hang them with..."

    If any situations is more appropriately described by these remarks, it is this one. We build them the technologies they are using to oppress us with, not only this but we are building them tomorrow's tools of enslavement and oppressions...

    For my part I'm only building defensive capabilities and countermeasures....
    Anyone building creepy crawlies for secretive elite control freaks addicted to power is mad, selfish, and uncaring of the consequences...

    Join the fight!
    Unite Against those Creeps!

    https://www.eff.org/
    http://internetdefenseleague.org/

    Go Private!
    http://epicbrowser.com/
    https://startpage.com/eng/
    https://duckduckgo.com/

    How is that for the law of unintended consequences?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  8. Techwiz

    Techwiz Registered Member

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    It is the sovereign duty of every citizen to defend this nation against any enemy, including our own government, that seeks to subvert and/or attack our liberties and freedoms. People want to rally against this, but the government has maintained this illusion of absolute control for so long that people are practically conditioned to feel powerless. Movies and books only serve to further exacerbate how little we actually knew. The exposures are probably the best thing that could have happened. I'd image most people feel a conviction to do something, but don't know how they can help. Whistle blowing is a good first step, but we also need establish a clear platform to support peoples. I think the open-source community is already well-positioned. Not to mention others groups like the tor project and guardian project teams. Probably the most important thing we can do is keep these issues circulated int the media. We can't let them bury this with things like Syria and other events.
     
  9. tlu

    tlu Guest

    I don't agree. Schneier says, e.g.:

    And he is absolutely right, IMHO, in also saying:

    How does that make him naive? The fact that there is no reliable way to verify the facts is also well described in this ars technica article.
     
  10. JackmanG

    JackmanG Former Poster

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    No, the parts you quoted are examples of him finally "getting it" as I was saying in the OP. It's the rest of the article...his proposed "solution" that makes him naive. And as I said, the comments do a great job of pointing that out.

    Go ahead and read the whole page. (I'm wondering if you actually did that before posting.)
     
  11. Hermescomputers

    Hermescomputers Registered Member

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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada, eh?
  12. tlu

    tlu Guest

    I had done that.

    Nice. If that's your reaction if someone's interpretation of an article differs from yours, any further discussion is pointless :thumbd:
     
  13. JackmanG

    JackmanG Former Poster

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    Well, I mean virtually every comment on that post points out the naivety...yet you come in and point out the few basic points that he's actually not being naive about, and say "I disagree".

    I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt. But if you actually read that whole page and still don't see where he's being naive, then I suppose there isn't much I can do to help you.
     
  14. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    You say that he's being naive because you can't imagine that the NSA would ever operate constitutionally. Even if numerous engineers answered his call. Even if it became a hot-button issue. Even if <whatever>. Right?

    Maybe you're right. I'm not optimistic, and would rather focus on defence. But still, I consider him courageous, rather than naive.
     
  15. JackmanG

    JackmanG Former Poster

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    Well, more specifically his "solution"..."a special prosecutor, one not tied to the military, the corporations complicit in these programs, or the current political leadership, whether Democrat or Republican"...[as if such a person existed]...who will have "free rein to go through the NSA's files and discover the full extent of what the agency is doing, as well as enough technical staff who have the capability to understand it"...etc. etc. [As if such a thing were feasible.]

    It's all nonsense.

    He recognizes how bureaucracy is what created the problem, and yet somehow thinks more of it is what will solve it. (Not unlike the economic situation in which too much spending and debt created a problem, and the proposed solution is more spending and debt. "Don't you know? You get out of debt by borrowing more.")

    Again, this was all outlined quite well in the comments. Post after post pointing out how naive this is, and how it's not a solution at all. Random commenters were able to point out flaw after flaw in this proposal...each of which would cause it to fail before it began.

    Absolutely. You're not going to solve this problem by engaging in, and having faith in the practices and institutions that created it. This is where Schneier falls off. He still doesn't get that...yet.


    You've never heard of the "brave fool"?

    (I don't think that's what Schneier is, but my point is, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I wouldn't call him a fool by any means...but on this particular facet of this particular issue, yes, he's being naive, and that's what I basically said in the OP...that it's astounding how a guy with not only such knowledge and expertise (and even more importantly, experience and familiarity with how govt can and will behave unethically...not the least of which comes from his personally working with the Snowden documents)...could possibly think that more of what caused the problem, is the solution.)
     
  16. ronjor

    ronjor Global Moderator

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