Rollback software suggestions please

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by Malcontent, Jun 29, 2010.

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  1. Malcontent

    Malcontent Registered Member

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    I'm looking for suggestions for a reliable rollback solution. Free would be great but paid would be ok. It should be reliable and easy to use.

    Also, are there any issues I should consider before using this type of software?

    Are there any problems using full imaging software while having a rollback software installed?

    Thanks.
     
  2. PJC

    PJC Very Frequent Poster

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    I've used Rollback Rx, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery without a problem since 2007.
     
  3. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    RollbackRX and EAZ-FIX are the same product, same activation servers and same keys. I play with them from 2006 (I have 3 licenses) and I consider them all but reliable. e.g more than once they had destroyed my disks partition tables, corrupted partitions file tables, etc. For not counting the overhead on I/O operations and the inability to defrag.
    AyRecovery and Comodo Time Machine are based on the same technology and have the same problems.
    See above.
    Yes they do have, for example you cannot image from outside the OS.
    The only reliable Instant Restore software are Windows System Restore (at least in 7) and Roxio BackOnTrack Suite (BOT is the only one that has no problems with defrags since is file oriented and not sector oriented). They also have no problems with Boot managers or Imaging apps. And of course FirstDefence-ISR but is not on sale anymore.

    Panagiotis
     
  4. Kid Shamrock

    Kid Shamrock Registered Member

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    AyRecovery and CTM are not based on the same technology. AyRecovery is based off earlier version of EAZ-FIX. I have no idea what CTM is based on except that it doesn't work. I've used AyR for two years with zero problems. I tried CTM twice and it trashed my MBR when uninstalled both times. I would not recommend CTM to anyone. The other three work well, just differ in price, additional features and size.
     
  5. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Yes they are. And here is the patent of the technology.
    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=7313726.PN.&OS=PN/7313726&RS=PN/7313726
    So what? EAZ-FIX is based on an earlier version of EAZ-FIX too.;) :p
    Anyway, just for the info the developers got separated after EAZ-FIX 7.1.
    But the core technology is the same. Both are using a proprietay file system table that is placed over and in parallel with the partition file table.
    Well just for education purposes CTM is indeed a direct AyRecovery clone/derivate.

    Panagiotis
     
  6. pajenn

    pajenn Registered Member

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    I use Rollback Rx. It's easy, but not as reliable as full imaging.

    They work by locking down the sectors containing the state of the machine at the time of each snapshot. Since sectors are locked you cannot defrag, change partition size/properties or anything like that without uninstalled the program first. Other software conflicts are possible, for example, I tried AxCrypt while Rx was installed and forgot that it wouldn't be able to securely erase info on sectors locked by Rx. The result was the loss of a partition. (I got it back though).

    You need to image all sectors including "unused" sectors so it takes longer and the resulting backup images are larger. Also, if want to boot off a CD or USB stick to make the backup image, you need to be careful not to make any changes to the partitions "protected" by the Rollback program because it cannot see those changes.
     
  7. ViVek

    ViVek Registered Member

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    Comodo Time Machine wich is Free:D or paid Rollback RX :)
     
  8. Greg S

    Greg S Registered Member

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    Are you familiar with BOT? I read your repy and the name Back on Track seemed familiar to me. Just a few minutes ago I was looking in the box that one of my HD enclosures came in and there was that name on the CD. Any thoughts on it? Presently and for the last five months I've been using CTM and Win 7 System Image/Backup with no problems but this BOT looks interesting.
     
  9. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Pretty much.

    BackOnTrack Suite is a very good imaging/backup/ISR combo. The imaging and the file backup are faster from those of windows7 and are very reliable and extreamly easy to use. (I prefer using IFW for imaging though).

    As for the ISR component, it is the most reliable on the market second only to FD-ISR, but since the last one is out of the picture Roxio is the best available. You can go back and forth in time, delete the snapshots that you do not need anymore, defrag without any problem and the most important thing, in case of a failure you can easily retrieve your files with a Win or Linux PE and without the fear of loosing the other partitions.
    But since it is file/folder based it is also more vulnerable against file infectors than its competitors.

    There are also 1-2 things that I don't like.
    - The deleted files are moved into the snapshots, and at least in this regard works similarly with the other ISRs.(every modification is being recorded even for the "User Data" folders)
    - Even though every change is recorded and stored in the snapshots it doesn't have a "recover previous" feature, that almost all the others have for years now.

    Anyway later today or tomorrow I'll start a thread with some tips that make the user experience even better.

    Panagiotis
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  10. Greg S

    Greg S Registered Member

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    Most helpful info, Thank you!
     
  11. ratchet

    ratchet Registered Member

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    Today, for about the 16th or 17th time I un-installed CTM (or AyR) defraged, imaged and re-installed CTM on XP SP3 desktop. The only issue I ever had on it was because I attempted to remove AyR with ZSoft one year after ZSoft saved the install. Turned out that many of the CTM un-install issues were do to using third party un-installers. Out of desperation I hit the home key at start and was able to restore AyR and then remove it. This after I observed ZSoft removing dozens of AyR files. Amazing!
    Months ago (March I think) I did totally nuke my Vista laptop (BSOD and all) after a huge Windows update Tuesday and CTM failed me. The MBR was completely messed up, I could not boot and CTM was "gone" (where I'm still not sure). I stayed up until about 2:00am and finally figured I'd be better off trying to repair things after a nights rest. Next day I was finally able to change the BIOS boot order (I think F2 got me in) with a Vista repair disk and then I was able to boot from my Paragon disk which repaired the MBR and then recovered with the Paragon image. Since then CTM has again been working flawlessly with monthly un-installs, defragmenting and imaging.
    I will say this, in my opinion snapshot software is worth any risk. It has saved me from dozens of bad installs plus its so convenient for testing software. I can't live without CTM now!
     
  12. Greg S

    Greg S Registered Member

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    ratch, which method do you use to uninstall CTM, Add/Remove or Boot Console? I've had it up and running for about 5 plus months(guess) and have not uninstalled it yet. Honestly, I haven't found a reason to uninstall it. I have updated the baseline and updated the program with no problems. I have a license for Eaz-Fix and used it prior to CTM. I uninstalled it more than a few times to defrag. If CTM is anything like Eaz-Fix, it's a waste of time to uninstall just for defragging. The many times I did it with Eaz-Fix, the HD was always in pristine condition with zero fragmentation. I'm still interested in this BackOnTrack if nothing else for the Imaging/Backup part. How does one restore with BackOnTrack? Does it build a startup disc like Eaz-Image or can one use Win 7 Repair Disc or Install Disc?
     
  13. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    True, file defragmantation does not offer much with EAZ-FIX and Clones. snapshot defragmantation on the other hand is critical.
    If you have only 3-10 snapshots linear snapshots the performance is not impacted very much but if you have a lot of not linear snapshots you will see a big performance impact because of the snapshot fragmentation.
    And the internal defragmantation of the program is not a defragmentation of it's snapshots, but rather a cleanup/reclaim of the wasted space from the deleted ones. The only thing that, maybe, gets defragmented is the file/snapshot table of its system and this only when you defragment on bootime.
    Yes, it builds a WinPE recovery disc.

    Panagiotis
     
  14. ratchet

    ratchet Registered Member

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    Programs>CTM>Uninstall
    Also, I remove it to image with Paragon and am defraging before that.
     
  15. PJC

    PJC Very Frequent Poster

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    I know that RollbackRX, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery are all based on the same Patent.
    Since 2007, I have used all three (3) programs without the problems you mentioned.
    -Are you sure it is these programs the ones causing you problems?
     
  16. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Dear Esposito,

    Rollback RX and EAZ-FIX are the same product. (EAZ-FIX is the OEM version and Rollback-RX is the commercial one, and both are maintained by EAZ Solution, Inc.).
    The above and AyRecovery are based on the exact same technology and since you like to play with words, their intelectual property rights are protected under the same patent.
    And why exactly do you highlight the year?
    Funny because that year, I and Peter2150 were the ones that managed to replicate the, famous at the time, CHKDSK corruption critical bug https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=184940 , when the developers and the support team denied that existed for almost a year.
    The fact that you have not encountered the problems that I mentioned is not a surprise. It depends on may factors like the size of the disk (on disks with 600 gb and more the problems happen more often), the size of the first primary partition (if it is bigger than 200-300gb, you have higher probabilities to encounter the bugs), how many partitions do you have, if they are primary or logical, from the size of the extended partition where the logicals reside, etc., etc.
    And the problem with the deleted partitions or corrupted partition table during the uninstall is caused by the fact that during the installation Rollback clones make a copy of the partition table in their hidden filesystem and then replace the real partition table with their own.
    During the uninstall they replace their own partition table with the copy of the real one and here is that the problem can occur.
    If the copy somehow got corrupted, or because of a bug it is not restored correctly you can have as a result, corrupted or missing partitions and in the worst case scenario an unkown partiton that occupies all the disk.

    Panagiotis
     
  17. PJC

    PJC Very Frequent Poster

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    I underlined that year (2007) to show you that 'Different Setups React Differently'.
    In four (4) different PCs (Intel and AMD) and under two (2) different OS (XP and Seven),
    I have used Rollback Rx, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery without the problems you mentioned.

    I know many ones who have used Aggressive Disk/Junk File Cleaners/Erasers that corrupt MFT etc.
    and then, accuse Rollback Rx, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery of being unstable/ineffective etc.

    You sounded as if Rollback Rx, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery are very problematic/dangerous software.

    What didn't work in Your setup may worked in Somebody Else's setup,
    because 'Different Setups React Differently'.

    Let's Not be that Absolute...
     
  18. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Please stop overusing bold, colors underlying and so on. It is annoying and make things harder to read...

    I did not sounded... It is a very problematic/dangerous software by design. Having two different file tables under the same partition (one of the partition and one of rollback), using advanced rootkit technologies, direct disk access to bypass the OS, emulating/redirecting the writes to virtual file tables, etc., etc. is indeed dangerous.

    If it works fine for you great, continue using it. but stop advertising it as a panacea to all pc problems, when infact on other people setups can cause irriversable damage and make them loose important data.

    You said that you have used it in 4 different pcs, blablabla....... So...?
    For your information I did test it over the years on 4 different desktops of mine, 2 different laptops, on 3 different desktops of my brotther in law and his 4 laptops. A combination of various intel and amd cpus, various chipsets of intel, nvidia, via, different ide and sata disks of various capacities WD, Samsung, hitachi and toshiba. So now, what does it prove? o_O

    ps. My brother in law also has 3 licences of his own, and when he encountered one of the problems that I described and lost 200gb of files he uninstalled it of all the machines...

    Panagiotis
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  19. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I agree with Pandlouk. This software may work fine on your system, but the approach has an inherent danger.

    You are working on a windows based system and using an approach where files are kept in sectors that windows knows nothing about. Only the software sector table does. If anything damages that the data is trash, unlike with a straight forward windows system even if the disk goes bad, you can frequently recover data.

    When it works great, but understand the inherent weakness.

    Pete
     
  20. squid13

    squid13 Registered Member

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    Been reading this thread and am interested in Roxio BackOnTrack Suite 3 but can not find a trial version anywhere. I'd like to try it first and see how I like it. Does anyone know if a trial version exist? I notice Newegg has it for download for $29.99 but there are two model numbers of it, #156913600SF and #156913000SF. Anyone know what the difference is between them?
     
  21. PJC

    PJC Very Frequent Poster

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    I did Not advertise Rollback Rx, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery!
    You are the one who has systematically offered Negative Advertisement
    to these three (3) applications.
    You have constantly written so much against these products.

    If someone throws persistent Malware (e.g. the worst Rootkits etc.)
    against these products, they may fail (like any AV, HIPS, FW etc.).

    If someone extends these products beyond their capabilities, they may fail.

    -So, what? Does this prove that these products are worthless?

    I will continue to successfully use these three (3) applications like many others Wilders users.
    BTW, I am not the only one who uses Rollback Rx, EAZ-FIX, and AyRecovery without problems.

    If you can proposed me a Solution that
    -Takes a System Snapshot or BackUp in a few Seconds
    and
    -Restores it in less than three (3) Minutes,
    I will try it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  22. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Holy crap, you even mentioned Rollback RX in bold at the defragmenters poll.:rolleyes:
    Yes, my hobby is to offer negative advertisment about Rollback RX. LOL
    Funny, because the last year I participated (use the search engine with my nick, rollback rx as a search parameter and find post from "A year ago") in, wow, only 7 threads that have the name rollback involved and only in this one I warned about the problems that one can encounter; a thread where the member that started it asked for a Reliable rollback application.:rolleyes:
    And where exactly I mentioned malware? o_O
    When I said advanced rootkit technics, I was referring to Rollback and clone's carracteristics.
    In reality against malware they perform way better, than FD-ISR and Roxio's BOT since the last too offer zero protection against even the simpliest worm.
    I did not extended them beyond their capabilities.
    Every ISR can and will fail eventually. But if, when it fails, takes all the data with it, then in my vocabulary, is not reliable.
    Never said that.
    As long as the user understands the risks and does not store important data on the same disk (not partition, disk) that they are installed they are ok to use.
    For God's sake. When did I told you to not use them? o_O
    As I said previously:
    I could not care less of what you'll use.
    But since, you have windows 7, give a try in it's system restore, it may surprise you.
    It is not bulletproof (none of them is) but at least when it fails you'll be able to retrieve your data.

    Panagiotis
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  23. PJC

    PJC Very Frequent Poster

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    -So, what if I mentioned Rollback Rx in the Defrag Poll?
    I have No Official/Unofficial Relationship with AyRecovery, EAZ-DIX, or Rollback Rx.

    -You have Never offered Negative Advertisement to Rollback Rx, EAZ-DIX, and AyRecovery.
    Really?
    What are the following statements of yours?
    Words from a happy customer?
    I will ask AyRecovery, EAZ-DIX, or Rollback Rx to put them on their sites as promotional material...
    -You must be JOKING when comparing AyRecovery, EAZ-DIX, or Rollback Rx with W7 System Restore!

    I asked you before, BUT you never replied:

    Can you find me a software that does
    -BETTER- what AyRecovery, EAZ-DIX, or Rollback Rx do,
    -BUT in the SAME TIME- (Not 10 MINUTES or MORE to Restore a System)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  24. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I will reply for Pandlouk, so as to stop this back and forth argument.

    No I couldn't find another software that does what you ask. It is good it works for you and also for a lot of other people. BUT.... for many people it has been a total disaster. I know I've tried on several occasions and it's trashed the system.

    While it does indeed work well for many, what people need to realize is that there is an inherent danger in the underlying technology, that can cause problems. Folks just need to be aware of that, and feel there way into the use of this software. If it works great, but people just have to be prepared just in case when they do try it.

    This is the reason, Pandlouk, and others will occasionally respond with warnings.

    Pete
     
  25. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Pete about it's overall speed I'd like to add the following info that is never mentioned anywhere.

    Now let's see how fast it really is:
    + 10 seconds to create a snapshot
    + 1 to 3 minutes to restore a snapshot.
    + the time lost because of the costant overhead on the I/O disk operations, that starts at around 10% (on a clean install) and skyrockets over time (snapshots created and deleted) to more than 50%. The reason that all its users uninstall it, and/or update the baseline, or reset to the baseline once a month.
    + the time it takes to run automatic defrags inside the OS every hour (usually take from a minimum of 10 seconds to a maximum 50-60 seconds).
    + the time it takes to defrag on the system boot after, every 4 snapshots get deleted (the defrags can take from seconds to several minutes)
    + the time it takes to defrag on the system boot after, every 4 new snapshots that get created (the defrags take from seconds to several minutes)
    ----------------------

    And this is supposed to be the fastest ISR available?:p :D
    In reality is one of the slowest ones.

    Panagiotis
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
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