Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by TheRollbackFrog, Jul 5, 2018.
That's why I keep saying this company is a murderer of people's SSD.
If i may just add a little real life feedback to this Trimming issue with RB that has ensued for years.
As Froggie and others have always stated, TRIM does not work in its true form when RB is installed. So there has always been a concern about the effects and most importantly the long term reliability effects of Rb on a SSD.
Let me be the first "eyewitness" (that i know of) to actually report that i bought a Samsung 840Pro 240gb back in Feb 2012 and had RB installed and running everyday until Jun 2017 when i bought myself a new system. I've now given my old system to my son and that Samsung drive is still running today (albeit without RB installed).
The Point is that i have read all the discussions and yes some attacks on RB over the past 5 years (at least) but from personal experience people are worrying about nothing. Todays SSD are resilient enough to make the TRIM discussion mute (IMO). All i did was the usual maintenance of uninstalling RB, restart, run TRIM, reinstall RB. Did this at random intervals after 1 mth up to 3 mth of use. Sometimes i had 50 or more snapshots (not to mention the countless deleted ones). The Samsung SSD still survives and works at breakneck speed.
So I dont want to start a new war on this...all Im saying is enjoy RB without concern about SSD destruction but always remember to keep that current back up for all the other things that can go wrong with RB
Now can you also post:
1) a screenshot of Samsung Magician and the MTTF/MTBF of the ssd.
2) the size of the ram that system has.
3) how the system was used. (general-office work or gaming or video/audio editing)
4) It has only that ssd installed or does it have other disks too? Is it a laptop or a desktop?
A post like "I used that system for 5 years with RBRX and still works great is totally meaningless.
I have a nuc n3700 8gb ram with an crucial mx200 250gb that runs debian 24/7 (office work), (used daily 8-10 hours except weekends without ever being shut down) from 2015, and has not exceeded yet 1 TB writes after 3 years...
and have another mx200 250gb (bought 10 months after the previously mentioned one) on a desktop system that I use for videoediting and is going to reach the end of its life in a few months (more 70 TB written).
Not saying , RX now has the turn On/Off option (in tray icon) which is act like an uninstall without uninstalling RX (still loose the snapshots, but they weren't supposed to be permanent IMO), so it became easier to do the TRIM; cost just a reboot ...
Carfal's procedure, monthly unInstall/reInstall (or Deactivate/reActivate) along with TRIMming will usually keep an SSD healthy as far as "cleaning up" used/unknown DATA... assuming the System is not massively active as far as creating/deleting DATA is concerned. Most SSDs arrive with 8-10% over-provisioning space to allow for this type of DATA between TRIM operations... and that's if the disk is FULL. If it's not full, it'll also used unused partition space for the same thing.
The danger occurs if the monthly TRIMming (or more often) is not done at all. Many Rollback users never do this. I have assisted many users with blown Systems that have been 2-yrs or more with no RBrx changes. I've only been able to get them back to their very old baseline (sometimes loss of 100s of snapshots)... and only when they haven't used the damaged System after it fails.
Today's SSD Garbage Collection is better than it was 5-yrs ago but it cannot guess what NAND blocks are not in use unless the OS tells it which ones are not (DELETE with SSD notification, optimization). If it doesn't know, it must carry around that DATA ad infinitum until it runs out of space. If that SSD is never TRIMmed, it will eventually slow way down followed by an imminent death (Secure Erase will bring it back alive)... along with the user's System.
I don't remember the mans name, but he created a fantastic piece of software, called AX64 Time Machine.
I fought so hard to support that software, it was kind of a combination of Macrium, and RollbackRX.
Then he sold it, whoever bought it ruined it, was that a competitor, or just a group of people that were not very smart? I don't know.
I would recommend that RollbackRX hire this person, who created AX64 and have him fix their software, or maybe he will create his own software. I will buy it (in case he is listening).
Isso-I still use UltimateDefrag (5 now) that he first introduced here at Wilder's. Fantastic creative mind.
Yes awesome piece, even the betas were extremely stable.
Competitor (Bluebird/XeroWeight) who wanted to include it in their mainstream product.
He sold it to them and was hired by them, then they failed to release a decent product and went bankrupt.
He said a last message and disappeared.
As excited as most of us got over the AX64 Time Machine, then watching it degrade into an almost useless application... the underlying technology that made it so exciting (DIFFERENCE Restoration using disk surface tracking and "some" automatic scheduling) has been developed on an ongoing basis by at least (2) additional vendors... Macrium Inc. (Reflect) and Terabyte Unlimited (Drive Image Backup & Restore). Both of these applications offer DIFFERENCE Restoration (the process that makes the image restore so fast) and scheduling (better UI in Reflect but doable with Drive Image).
While salivating over Isso's initial releases of AX64's Time Machine, I also began to follow the BETA program of Macrium Reflect. By the time AX64/Xeroweight fell flat on their face, I was heavily into testing Macrium Reflect. As a previous Rollback RX user, this only slightly slower restoration capability of Macrium Reflect really excited me.
Since that time I have completely adopted Macrium Reflect as my go to System backup imaging software (for disaster recovery purposes which Rollback RX could never do) as well as my primary snapshot capability (which Rollback did well... "most" of the time). For someone like me who does a lot of snapshotting of their System, it has not failed me in its speedy restoration capability since early 2015 when I initially started my testing.
That has been my experience also. Macrium and Terabyte products survive on torture test which is a power reset while restoring. I challenge someone to try it with Rollback but no takers so far.
i did, it fails, even consecutive hard shutdowns while RX is idle may make the OS unbootable.
Ouch. Than a standby UPS is vital
Hi pandlouk. Your right i should have provided more detail about the usage but i was just trying to make a simple point that for the average Joe Blow the TRIM argument is mute.
FYI my old system was a desktop:- Gigabyte GA-EP35C-DS3R,Q6600, 6Gb ram, 250 Pro SSD, 120GB SSD and 2TB HD. I had that PC for 10 yrs and reluctantly upgraded to get SATA III. Still.. very happy with new system.
I'm not a heavy user as such, on average my old PC ran for 2-4 hrs daily (I use my PC for personal use only). but i usually was doing alot of software testing which ultimately involved alot of roll backs which i would estimate that over 5 years it would add up to hundreds. As far as Samsung Magician is concerned, the PC was wiped and my son has domain over it now...we wont go there.
Like Froggie said above, the key is to do the monthly maintenance and all will be fine. It would be nice if HDS can get TRIM to work correctly but I dont believe its possible to do this with write redirect technology. So all we have is knowledge. One by one people will read these and other posts and learn in their own time.
Its not a perfect world...
Don't doubt for a moment outstanding results on that level which is a huge testament to the thorough workings-quality control from both those teams. Curious though, in your estimation or opinion, is it that Rollback Rx is tackling difficult methods to reach that perfect pitch/balance or just what is it that makes it almost there but always a near high risk of choking which when that happens, some users-folks tend to minimize if not outright dismiss HDS.
As long as they been at it one would think they mastered the proper technique to overcome limitations that throw cold water on it with some. I for one would hop on it in a flash because short of our common images/restores (which take a little time) nothing is ever more dynamic or reliable as when you can pop snapshots and return your choice of any of them in record time. In my eyes the Ultimate Failsafe routine against outages/corruption/hardware blow out etc.
@EASTER - the problem is that Rollback DOES NOT play by Windows rules. Most every other application on the planet uses standard Windows APIs (Application Program Interfaces) to engage with the OS... they do not invent methods to manage their own home made databases when dealing with an OS. They assume what Windows will do and code accordingly. All their major work (mark and manage their snapshot database) is done UNDER the Windows OS... sure, nothing could go wrong with that, right?
It's that twilight zone that they work in that causes all their issues, TRIM being the least of them actually. Just think of what happens when Rollback, who is trying to protect and manage selected fixed partitions (known boundaries)... all of a sudden, outside of the Windows and Rollback purview (Rollback cannot see what's going on), Windows, during one of its CREATOR's updates, decides to change the size of those managed partitions in order to install yet another Windows Recovery partition because the older one was too small. I could post a big picture of an explosion but I think you know where I was going with this.
When I decided to create the "Rollback 'Unofishul' FAQ", I warned users about doing ANYTHING outside of a Rollback protected System due to the fact that Rollback wouldn't know that it had occurred. Just think of all those users who used to defrag their Systems using a Management WinPE disk... dead in the water when they were done. And then there was the partition management that users would perform using the same type of disk (dump abandoned partitions, resize the OS partition, etc.)... dead in the water when they were done. And then there were early Samsung Magician utilities (don't know whether they have changed) that would get their bogus FileSystem and disk allocation table info from Rollback, convert to real positioning information inside of the SSD, then issue hardware TRIM commands "around" the OS to do their special user friendly trimming... kablam. I can go on... but I won't.
I don't believe what Rollback is trying to do can actually be done THROUGH the resident OS, but I am no expert on what they do. What I can fairly accurately say is... when you think you know how Microsloth Windows works at any given time, and rely on that assumption... you'll probably be dead in the water soon. @carfal , through many years of extensive experience (and probably some slaughters along the way ) has developed a set of System maintenance procedures that work very well for him, allowing Rollback to meet his needs. These, of course, include the deInstallation/reInstallation of Rollback and the sacrificing of any important snapshots at the time of the maintenance. That's why Carfal continues to use RBrx even after many years... that user has learned a lot along the RBrx path.
Hopefully, this might give you a glimpse of why Rollback can be very questionable at times... you really need to know your Rollback (and damn better well know how to image that System as well for disaster prevention... even this requires some oddities along the way due mainly to Rollback's "management" of the System's Master BOOT Record <MBR>... Rollback's MBR = Useless image restores).
That last line....WOW!
Thanks for the info.
Sadly this is my conclusion also.
RBRX 11 is very fast.
Downside for me, it needs 50% of my SSD as of late, (the last week or so) I have used 220g of it and have 220g remaining.
I don't want to give up that much space, and the controversy I just read about the trim still not working (thought V11 fixed that) makes it a no go. I uninstalled it, restored my Macrium image, and that is that.
SO Macrium seems to be the final conclusion.
So sad about this guy Isso, from previous comments, it sounds like he feel off the edge of the earth, met the mafia, or retired very rich.
Ok now with that configuration (more than 4Gb of ram and a second hard disk and monthly trim of the ssd) and normal use of the pc it will be fine; the ssd won't reach the end of it's life prematurly.
But i wouldn't do that on systems with only 4GB or less ram with only one ssd installed.
If someone is a fan of RBRX and want to use it with an ssd I would advise him to buy a micron, crucial,etc. ssd and use flexcap to "hide" 40-50% of the drive's storage capacity. This way the cells will get worn out evenly and the disabled trim won't affect the drive's performance.
Rich would not be a way I would describe Isso as having gotten. He's sharp, but no monies were transferred as a result of the product eventually making its way to Xeroweight. He's out there workin' his butt off just like the rest of us... just not for Xeroweight.
My little "guide" for those who want to jump in RX train: (was made for RX v9-10 but still valid)
Really nice guide there @Umbra. Shame this app isn't a little more less anxiety prone for the rest of us who avoid taking chances of a complete meltdown. Jumping thru those little hoops to avoid panic can cause some pause for concern. Of course diehard users got their bearings laid out in advance and know what to look for, but even then?
If HDS integrated some form of Warnings when a user triggers some action to surely fudge the system
@EASTER if people don't mess with the MBR and don't do crazy stuff like multiple consecutive hard shutdowns or doing it during a restore, they will avoid most issues.
Remove RX before upgrading to 1809, unless you are ready for a reformat lol.
Even installing it after the upgrade will break 1809 and make it unbootable.
Well... I guess you pays your money and you takes your chances...
THIS from a v11-v1809 user in the HDS Forum... it really sounded suspicious to me
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