Resized clusters. Can't boot Vista

Discussion in 'Acronis Disk Director Suite' started by cdysthe, Sep 1, 2007.

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  1. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    Mark,

    The "boot" parameter may work okay. I haven't tried it. I think it should because it's just referencing the Active partition.

    I just tried your scenario using DD to create and format the boot partition. It didn't work (original error). I tried reformatting the partition with Diskpart and set it up again and it boots, but it then goes to the "Preparing your desktop..." hang-up. However, the second attempt was from an exported version of the BCD and then rebuilt so I don't know if that contributed to the problem.

    I'm going to try with using DD to just leave unallocated space and see if Diskpart will create a partition there.
     
  2. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    Mark,

    I got it to boot successfully. Here are instructions based on what I did. These are from memory, so I hope I don't forget something...

    Use DD to leave a little unallocated space at the end of the drive like this (you can use less than 200MB; 50MB is probably fine):
    [Vista][Logical 1][Logical 2][Unallocated @200MB]

    I would reboot here so Vista can recognize the partition change. No sense in making it detect too many changes at once...

    Boot the the Vista DVD and open the Command Prompt
    Start Diskpart
    Code:
    diskpart <ENTER>
    Find your disk
    Code:
    list disk <ENTER>
    Will return a list of disks starting with 0 (0 is most likely the one you want)
    Select the disk
    Code:
    select disk 0 <ENTER>
    View partitions on disk
    Code:
    list partition <ENTER>
    Will return a list of partitions (the unallocated space will not show up)
    Create new partition
    Code:
    create partition primary <ENTER>
    View partitions again
    Code:
    list partition <ENTER>
    Should now show the new primary partition (mine was #4)
    Select the new partition
    Code:
    select partition 4 <ENTER>
    Format the partition
    Code:
    format FS=NTFS LABEL="VISTABOOT" QUICK UNIT=4K <ENTER>
    Set partition Active
    Code:
    active <ENTER>
    View partitions again
    Code:
    list partition <ENTER>
    Should show all four partitions and the new boot partition should have a * in front of it (Active)
    Exit Diskpart
    Code:
    exit <ENTER>
    Fix the boot sector
    Code:
    bootrec /fixboot <ENTER>
    The new boot partition is now ready for files to be copied, but reboot first to make the new Active partition C: (just in case). Select to Repair and select NO to the fix-it question. Proceed to the Command Prompt.

    The VISTABOOT partition should now be C: and you'll need to find out what letter your Vista partition has and change to it with X: <ENTER> where X is the drive letter. I'm using G: in this example.
    Code:
    g: <ENTER>
    cd \ <ENTER>
    Copy the files:

    Unhide \bootmgr, copy to C: and rehide
    Code:
    attrib -h -s -r bootmgr <ENTER>
    copy bootmgr c: <ENTER>
    c: <ENTER>
    attrib +h +s +r bootmgr <ENTER>
    Rename \bootmgr file on Vista partition
    Code:
    g: <ENTER>
    ren bootmgr bootmgr_old <ENTER>
    Create \BOOT folder and copy files
    Code:
    c: <ENTER>
    md boot <ENTER>
    cd boot <ENTER>
    g: <ENTER>
    cd boot <ENTER>
    xcopy /s /h *.* c: <ENTER>
    Browse your C: partition and make sure the files are there
    Code:
    c: <ENTER>
    dir /ah <ENTER>
    dir <ENTER>
    Rename the Vista partition's \BOOT folder
    Code:
    g: <ENTER>
    cd \ <ENTER>
    attrib -h -s -r boot <ENTER>
    ren boot boot_old <ENTER>
    Now, fix the BCD file...
    Code:
    x: <ENTER>
    bcdedit <ENTER>
    Should show G: (or whatever your Vista partition is) for everything
    Fix it
    Code:
    bcdedit /set {bootmgr} device partition=C: <ENTER>
    Reboot computer. Vista should now boot from the boot partition. Check in Disk Management and make sure it's the System partition and shown as Active (it should be if Vista boots properly).
     
  3. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Paul:

    Super! Sounds like a winner to me. I will give it a go next week while the students are on Thanksgiving break and while I have a break from teaching. Thanks again. I'll post back to let you know how it went.
     
  4. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    You'll still need to convert the Vista partition to 16K clusters after you get this part done. I'd make a disk image backup first (if you have room), just in case.

    I've been working in VM so I've just copied and replaced the virtual hard drive. 4GB/min transfer... is that too slow? Just kidding... After doing the copy a dozen times, you get tired of waiting 3 minutes for 12GB to copy... Maybe if I setup two RAID 0 arrays...
     
  5. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Paul:

    Not to beat a dead horse, but I think that some of the mystery of the BCD in Vista is starting to clear up for me. I'm not claiming that I understand it to any depth, but a couple of things have become clearer by participating in this exercise. This gives me more confidence to be able to troubleshoot non-booting Vista installations. I know that for now I will just go directly to the command-line tools to work with the BCD instead of relying on the automatic repair mechanism on the Vista DVD.

    First, from post #49:
    This tells me that the drive information is stored in the binary BCD by, probably, UUID! If a partition is identified by UUID then it can be translated to other forms when running the command-line utility BCDEDIT. That would explain the behavior you describe in the above quote.

    Here is an example from your experiment in post # 35. Note that by viewing the BCD with BCDEDIT running in Vista, the drives are identified by Vista's drive letters; the bootmgr file is on partition D: and the Windows loader "winload.exe" is identified as being on drive C:, as well as a reference to the system root "\Windows" on drive C:
    Code:
    Windows Boot Manager
    --------------------
    identifier              {bootmgr}
    device                  [COLOR="Blue"]partition=D:[/COLOR]
    description             Windows Boot Manager
    locale                  en-US
    inherit                 {globalsettings}
    default                 {current}
    displayorder            {current}
    toolsdisplayorder       {memdiag}
    timeout                 30
    
    Windows Boot Loader
    -------------------
    identifier              {current}
    device                  [COLOR="Blue"]partition=C:[/COLOR]
    path                    [COLOR="Blue"]\Windows\system32\winload.exe[/COLOR]
    description             Microsoft Windows Vista
    locale                  en-US
    inherit                 {bootloadersettings}
    osdevice                [COLOR="Blue"]partition=C:[/COLOR]
    systemroot              [COLOR="Blue"]\Windows[/COLOR]
    resumeobject            {eb83bb41-94a1-11dc-a5df-f06177a47724}
    nx                      OptIn
    And in this example when the boot partition was hidden then it was displayed as:
    Code:
    Windows Boot Manager
    --------------------
    identifier              {bootmgr}
    device                  [COLOR="Red"]partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume1[/COLOR]
    description             Windows Boot Manager
    locale                  en-US
    inherit                 {globalsettings}
    default                 {current}
    displayorder            {current}
    toolsdisplayorder       {memdiag}
    timeout                 30
    This tells me that when BCDEDIT was unable to translate to a drive letter because the partition was hidden, then it displays as a device location (the terminology looks strangely similar to Linux terminology; i.e. /dev/sda1 for example).

    If the internal binary format of the BCD uses UUIDs for partition identifiers then this explains what has been observed about Vista needing a repair if the partition's starting sector is moved. When a UUID is generated for a partition it usually will depend on various pieces of information including the starting sector of the partition. So if you move the starting sector of a Vista partition or restore a TI backup of a Vista partition to a different location then the UUID will be wrong (I am recalling this thread from the TrueImage forum).

    Remember this thread and the fix to make Vista location-independent?
    Code:
    bcdedit /set {bootmgr} device boot <ENTER>
    bcdedit /set {default} device boot <ENTER>
    bcdedit /set {default} osdevice boot <ENTER>
    
    Now I see why that works and what it is doing.

    One little irony here -- the above would not work with an installation of Vista like is described in this thread where the BCD and boot files are on one partition and the rest of Vista is on another. The reference to bootmgr is correct but the references to the OS would have to be changed to point to Vista's partition.

    Maybe this is also an explanation for why a partition created by DD would not work properly as a boot partition for Vista -- perhaps the UUIDs are generated by Diskpart.

    I am glad to have been able to learn more about the BCD -- I may now be able to help people on the forum who are having these kinds of problems. But we'll see just how much I think I know about the BCD when I go to rearrange my Vista machine in a couple of days....:)
     
  6. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    This is a follow-up to let anyone reading this thread know that the conversion of Vista to work with a 16k cluster size went very well.

    After getting Vista to boot from an independent partition with a 4k cluster size, the main Vista partition was converted to 16k clusters with Disk Director. If you do this, then you should run a chkdsk /f on the drive after conversion because both Paul and I have noted errors present following a conversion. Also, your drive will be badly fragmented after the conversion so run a defragmenter to clean it up.

    I'll post back here after several weeks to see if the change to 16k clusters results in more shadow copy storage. If things go as they did on my data partition then I expect to see about a month's worth of backups in the allocated 15% of the drive (6 GB in my case). I was getting a week's worth with 4k clusters, although the system partition will probably have more writes than the data partition so maybe it won't be a month's worth...
     
  7. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    Mark,

    I sent you an email, but I'll post my restore results here too.

    Backup & Restore Procedure (using TI 10, build 4,942):

    • Backup made of just the Vista 16K cluster partition.
    • Restored partition.
    • Offset set to 63 from 64 (it seems TI will always set the offset back to 63). Mark had a different starting offset. I've had 64 and 88 in tests I've run.
    • Upon booting Vista, received the "Windload.exe" error (I expected this).
    • Booted to BartPE and fixed BCD file to point to Vista partition (was set to "unknown"). This could also have been done this from the Vista DVD, but BartPE was faster.
    • After BCD fix, Vista booted just fine.
    • Chkdsk ran without any errors.
    So... on the first restore, the BCD file will need fixed. You can't fix it before you restore since you can't set it to "boot" (Vista is not on the booting partition). This, at least, is consistent with the previous results we got. I assume TI 11 would restore without needing this. However, that also assumes that TI 11 is smart enough to make the fix when the boot partition is different from the Vista partition.
     
  8. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Here is how this turned out, before (4k clusters) and after (16k clusters) on 40GB partitions with the default 15% reserved for shadow copy storage:

    OS Partition 5 days --> 15 days of shadow copies.
    Data Partition 10 days --> 30 days of shadow copies.

    For 5-day work weeks that means 3 weeks of backup shadow copies on the OS partition and 6 weeks on the data partition, and that includes weekly defragmenting, which grows the shadow copy storage space requirement and results in older copies being discarded once the 15% of disk space limit is reached.

    In all, I am very happy with the performance of Vista on 16k clusters. The audible disk noise is much less, the disks don't fragment as quickly, and the machine seems faster, although that is subjective. I would recommend consideration of this method if you like having shadow copies as part of your backup strategy.
     
  9. Omlette Brothers

    Omlette Brothers Registered Member

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    Hello! Often a reader, finally got round to signing up on the basis of this thread. I wanted to share my findings with Vista (x64), RAID 1 and cluster sizing/alignment.

    It's probably worth a bit of background to explain what Im trying to achieve. I have two systems lined up for Vista x64. First is an MSI Media Live box, connected to nForce 430 controller and two Maxtor 300GB driver. This will be a HTPC and suck Video/Audio from an Infrant NAS box. The second box, a Dell E520 with ICH8R running another two 300GB Maxtor drives is for my Mixmeister (DJ) rig.

    With that profile, Im not too bothered about cluster slack. What I do want, esp with HTPC is maximum disk thro' put. To which end I have been trying to get 64K clusters and trying to align them optimally on the hard disk.

    At this point its worth me saying that I owe a debt of gratitude to Mudcrab & K0lo for this thread. Without it, I wouldnt have got as far as I have.

    I've failed to get 64K clusters aligned on 64 boundaries. I think this is a Vista bug, or Vista / Controller (Nforce/ICH8R). If anyone succeeds let me know.

    What I have achieved, by way of minor modifications to the preceeding posts, is a diskpart script which creates two partitions. Aligns them on 64MB boundary and creates 16K clusters. The seat of the pants experience tells me its faster than the default 4K Cluster/4K boundary that Vista provides out of the box.

    As previously posted I also aimed to create a small boot (system in MS speak?!) partition and a much larger system (booto_O) partition for my Vista dirs, prog files, audio etc etc. I reckon this is the most optimal.


    Anyway the procedure / diskpart script I came up with looks like:

    Boot Vista DVD

    When at System partitioning screen. Ensure the correct driver is loaded.

    Press Shift F10 to Open to DOS/Cmd window

    Diskpart

    Code:
    ;makes boot part at end of disk and 4k ntfs
    ;makes sys part 16k ntfs clusters and aligned at 64mb
    
    ;choose hdd
    select disk 0
    
    ;remove all
    clean
    
    ;create 1st partition
    create partition primary size=286000 align=64
    format fs=ntfs label="system" quick unit=16k
    
    ;create 2nd partition
    create partition primary size=100
    format fs=ntfs label="boot" quick unit=4k
    active
    
    
    Exit from Diskpart

    Code:
    bootrec /bootfix
    

    Thats all. Ive installed Vista several times with this script and it works every time. However it always fails if the Unit is greater that 16K ie 32K or 64K when Align is used.

    Hope this proves useful to the next person who finds this great thread!
     
  10. gboss

    gboss Registered Member

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    This thread was fantastic. I had a RAID 5 array on nForce board (P5N32-E SLI) which I really needed to be running with 64K Clusters for performance reasons and this thread helped me get that working :D . Incidentally, 4K clusters on an 680i nForce Raid 5 gives you about 10Mbps write performance where as 64K clusters are resulting in 150+MBps with 3 WD 500GB drives (300MBps on reads). See this thread for details on setting it up (http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showtopic=25786&mode=threaded)

    I do have a question though. I'm not sure how exactly to hide my 150MB System partition so it doesn't consume a drive letter (or takes a drive letter other than D).

    Here's my setup:
    [Vista32] C: 120GB, Primary (Boot, Page File, Crash Dump) 64K Cluster
    [Vista_Boot] D: 150MB, Primary (System,Active) 4K Cluster
    Vista64] Z: 120GB, Primary, 64K Cluster
    [Data] E: 700GB, Primary, 64K Cluster

    Things are looking good and performance is great but I want my 700GB Data partition to be drive D: so I think I want the Vista_Boot partition to be hidden.

    My BCD looks like this:
    Code:
    Windows Boot Manager
    --------------------
    identifier              {bootmgr}
    device                  partition=D:
    description             Windows Boot Manager
    locale                  en-US
    inherit                 {globalsettings}
    default                 {current}
    displayorder            {current}
    toolsdisplayorder       {memdiag}
    timeout                 30
    
    Windows Boot Loader
    -------------------
    identifier              {current}
    device                  partition=C:
    path                    \Windows\system32\winload.exe
    description             Microsoft Windows Vista
    locale                  en-US
    inherit                 {bootloadersettings}
    osdevice                partition=C:
    systemroot              \Windows
    resumeobject            {eb83bb41....}
    nx                      OptIn
    Do I want that BootManager Device line to say: partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume1 ? How do I know what Volume it should say on my system. How do I edit it?

    I wasn't sure if I should enter all three lines of this

    Code:
    bcdedit /set {bootmgr} device boot <ENTER>
    bcdedit /set {default} device boot <ENTER>
    bcdedit /set {default} osdevice boot <ENTER>
    in because Device Manage indicates that my Boot volume is C: and I was guessing that my Boot Manager isn't on C: but rather on D: (Vista_Boot).

    Any advise before I do something dangerous would be much apprecciated!

    Thanks,

    Greg
     
  11. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Greg:

    You should not need to do anything to the BCD. The boot partition identifier is stored internally as a long hex string (GUID) but when you view the BCD you see it translated into human terms; for example, as partition=D:

    You should be able to accomplish your objective by booting to the recovery CD version of Disk Director and simply hiding the Vista Boot partition. The boot loader will still find the partition even if hidden. Make this change (and only this change) and then reboot into Vista.

    After doing this the D: drive letter should be freed up and you can reassign it via Vista Disk Management console to your other data partition.

    After doing this if you then view the BCD you will see the boot partition identified differently; Vista will handle the translation. If it does not have a drive letter then it will be displayed as partition=\Device\HardDisk\Volume... etc.
     
  12. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    By the way, Greg, the performance that you are getting from your RAID array is really impressive! I have a lowly RAID-1 array on my machine and thought I was doing well to get read performance of about 70 MB/s, but yours just blows that out of the water!

    Let me know if you are successful hiding your boot partition and reassigning drive letter D to your data partition.
     
  13. gboss

    gboss Registered Member

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    Mark, your are deadly accurate with your advise. I booted via DD Safe mode on my USB and marked the Vista_Boot partition hidden. Restarted, and everything worked and booted as before. My Boot Manager line references
    Code:
    device            partition=\Device\harddiskVolume2
    Thanks again, it took me till the weekend to try because I was using the machine for some critical things and didn't want to get myself in a bind without time to address/fix.

    On the RAID 5 performance... I would get around 5Mbps throughput with 4K clusters because for some reason the nForce 680i SLI chipset doesn't know how to do something that the others do. I don't know the finer details but the url in post #60 describes it enough to replicate. Basically I used Vista (DiskPart) to create the partition and that puts it at a 2048 offset. This combined with a 32K stripe size and 64K clusters makes things all line up efficiently on my 3 drive array. I'm probably going to try a 5 drive array in the near future.

    I was realy close to buying a PCI RAID card from Highpoint or Areca but now it seems to be working and pretty stable.

    Thanks again Mark - and everyone else for all your posts.

    Greg
     
  14. caustic

    caustic Registered Member

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    If there is someone interested in an easy way to prepare Vista Ultimate editions system partition.
    I used the Bitlocker Harddisk preparation tool. ( This is only working on Raid devices if you uses real Raid controllers, in my case it is an Adaptec 39320D-R resucue media of TI11 is not working with this controller I've to use VistaPE )
    It prepares your Harddisk to boot from a 4k active bootpartition and prepares your systempartition for Bitlocker and for rezising clustersize. You can abort using bitlocker after restart.
    The bootpartion is for about 1.5GB ( it can be rezised later ).
    After this I made a complete back up with Acronis TI 11.0 Build 8078 german edition.
    I started VistaPE from a CD. I reformated the C: partition with the VistaPE diskmanagement software to 64kb cluster size.
    After this the drive letters changed. I rechanged with VistaPE's diskmanagment software.
    Then I restored Files and Folders with TI11 into c: partition and booted up my system.
    There is a small issue with my profile folder. I was not able to restore all security settings. This seems to me is an TI11 bug. For example I wasn't able to start a download with IE7. So I decided the quick way to make a new profile and to delete my old one after restore. After this everything is working like a charm....
    I hope you was able to understand my bad english... ;)

    The performance with 64kb cluster size seems to be slightly better but I'm not sure that this is a result of the increased clustersize. After restoring files the complete c: partition was without any fragmented files... I'll report this later because I'll test in the future with some big stockmarket databasefiles....
     
  15. JazzMac251

    JazzMac251 Registered Member

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    Hey everyone,

    I've used this before to fix my desktop and it went off without a hitch (thanks everyone!). however, this time, i'm having problems.

    i followed Mud Crab's directions twice now and the same problems occurs. When i try to reboot vista, it can't find the bootmgr. I think it has soemthing to do with the fact that the Vista RE isn't letting me set the vistaboot partition to active. It says it's active but upon reboot i still get the "can't find bootmgr" and when i check diskpart there are no active partitions.

    no matter how man times i set it, it won't stick.

    i'm thinking the whole process went off well, but because there i can't set the correct active partition, Vista is looking for the boot files in the wrong place.

    Also, for some reason, my drive letters did not change as planned. C: remained my vista partition D: the recovery environment and E: became vistaboot.

    The first time i tried this, the drive letters did change as described in Mud Crab's #52 post, but upon reboot to start back into the OS, I found that the letters had shifted back to what i decribed.

    I dont' know what is going on here. Any ideas? Sorry for the incoherent post. I've been working on this for hours now and i'm exhausted.:rolleyes:
     
  16. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    JazzMac251:

    Just a guess, but the most likely reason you can't get the partition to be active is that your diskpart commands are being directed to the wrong disk. Check steps 2 and 3 in MudCrab's post #52 carefully to be sure that you are selecting the correct disk. If necessary, disconnect all of your disks except the target so that you only have disk 0 present.

    If still unsuccessful, do you have any other partitioning software (Acronis Disk Director, for example)? If so, use your other program to set the desired partition Active.
     
  17. JazzMac251

    JazzMac251 Registered Member

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    K0lo,

    thanks for the quick response!

    Well, i'm working on a laptop and there's only disk connected. I also already tried making it active with DD and it didn't work. same deal.
     
  18. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Do you have any security suites running on the laptop that prevent changes to the MBR and/or partition table?

    Is there a setting in the laptop's BIOS that protects the boot sector from viruses?

    Something is preventing your changes from being applied...
     
  19. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    Does DD show the partition marked as Active?
     
  20. JazzMac251

    JazzMac251 Registered Member

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    it does say it's set to active when i first set it to active. after the reboot to seal the deal, though, it reverts back to no partition set to active. In that case, i'm assuming it just defaults to C:. Since bootmgr and boot are no longer on C: (bootmgr_old and boot_old) i guess that's why it's not finding anything.
     
  21. MudCrab

    MudCrab Imaging Specialist

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    This sounds like you're doing the procedure from Windows.

    Have you tried booting to the DD CD in either the Full or Safe Mode version and setting the partition Active? (Make sure to Apply the changes.)
     
  22. JazzMac251

    JazzMac251 Registered Member

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    yeah i actually just tried that again. no dice. I made sure to apply the changes as well. DD said the operation completed successfully and the little red flag moved from C: (vista partition) to E: (vistaboot). I continued onto the OS from the Acronis loader screen only to find the same "missing bootmgr" error. Checked DD again and the active partition is set back to C: again (according to DD. according to diskpart there is no active partition set).
     
  23. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    How did you "continue on to the OS from the Acronis loader screen"? Are you using a boot manager (like OS Selector) to control the boot process?
     
  24. JazzMac251

    JazzMac251 Registered Member

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    No i only have one OS. what i meant is that I was doing all of that work from the Acronis Disc and at the loader screen where it asks what you want to load (e.g. DD full, DD safe, ....other options i don't use....) i clicked on the last option, "windows" - which i guess is just a reboot command.
     
  25. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    Wow. Your machine is behaving as if you had Norton GoBack or Faronics DeepFreeze installed. These programs write disk changes to temporary storage that gets flushed each time the PC reboots.
     
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