Please help w/new graphics card & system build

(151) Re: Please help with new graphics card

innerpeace

My mistake-I had forgotten that as standard the configuration is as follows;

Cooling:
- 1 rear 120mm TriCool Fan (standard)
- 1 top 120mm TriCool fan (standard)
- 1 lower chamber 120mm TriCool Fan (standard)
- 1 front 120mm fan (optional)
- 1 middle 120mm fan (optional) to cool the VGA

No wonder you are confused!
What in fact happened is that I installed BOTH of the optional fans-both mounted in front of and behind the top drive cage,but had forgotten the front one wasnt standard.


Firstly I fitted the front optional fan which I think is essential,as the front lower chamber fan doesnt pull any air into the top chamber,so its all negative pressure sucking in the air at the top.

Then later on,as my mobo ,video card, were still running warmish ,I fitted the second optional one.

Markymoo mentioned the ideal ratio was 2:1 negative pressure which makes sense.This draws in more dust but exhausts the stale hot air efficiently and would be in keeping with Antecs design intentions.
As the dust filters are efficient,the dust factor isnt a worry.

Fitting just that front fan gives this ideal 2:1 ratio.
So if you fit another internal fan,this should move less CFM air than the others,but as its assisting in both sucking air and expelling,probably isnt critical.

In your case I would definitely fit another Tricool fan to the same specs. as the rear and top,now,as the front fan.

The other internal could wait until you fit your new hardware-then you should also consider fitting a better CPU cooler,like an Ultra Extreme 120,for your overclocked dual core monster!!

Your

 

(152) Re: Please help with new graphics card

I'm always confused . I sorta gathered that you had both fans, but I needed clarification. I totally understand now . I'm really glad that there are dust filters and trust me, they will stay clean.

The 2:1 makes more sense now. I will definitely get another fan. I can always experiment with placing it up front or on the HDD tray.

LOL, that monster better be on sale for me to buy it. I have a feeling that before this is over, I will be considering overclocking. This whole experience has been very interesting and a lot of fun. Thank you for hanging in there with me. I appreciate it a lot .

Cheers

 

(153) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Hairy Coo & innerpeace, sorry for late replys...

I get a P190 although although expensive it will last years. It be for watercooling. The P190 has lots of room and has the criteria to fit this http://www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php with as little modification as possible and so easier to fit. There's only a handful of cases that require no modification. I currently have this http://www.thermochill.com/pa1202.php . A good case without having to modifiy it is a case with 10 5/14" drive bays at the front so it can be stood upright or one where it can be laid down in the bottom. A smaller case can be used but have to cut out the top or bottom for fans. This also uses a gasket between the radiator and the fans. This is it with the needed fans attached http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/3464/img4145large2de.jpg On some cases it easy to rip out the drive cages to make more room and put the hard drives somewhere else.

Other great cases i considered are these.

http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product04.php?cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=61
http://www.mountainmods.com/computer-cases-u2ufo-c-21_32.html
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9429/front2bh7.jpg mountain mod pic
http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_contents.php?pno=tj10-esa&area=
http://www.coolermaster.com/microsite/Cosmos/

innerpeace, just experiment with the fans and speeds and moving them around, your case temps are adequate for your hardware, when you upgrade it become more critical to lower the temps abit more. Obstructing fans makes them noiser. Getting that graphic card cooler the Ultra extreme will help alot. One thing to mention is if you go overclocking with a new chip you have to invest in a stronger power supply. My E6400 going from 2.1Ghz to 4Ghz(1.2V to 1.55.V) stable uses a massive 200 Watts. The new chips overclock very easy and use abit less power,volts to get there so it worth doing. In this situation active cooling is necessary which is blasting air at your motherboard and ram. This screws up the 2:1 ratio... so it good to have extra 120mm fans, one fan that is very powerful with low noise is Xinrullian they have over 75 CFM and 28db and not loud at all. I found them in Hairy Coo land here http://www.radiical.com.au/products/fans.asp but not in States.

The high demand for these may push the price even further. The 8400 really is the 'best bang for the buck' The older dual cores in the higher range are bad value considering price of new models. The 6400 is still not alot less than a 8200 so it better to get the new one anyway. The quad core 6600 will come down no more than $40 which will make it around the price of a 8200 which is a great buy. The entire range isn't out yet. I know zipzoomfly.com is also popular there. Here's the lower models to consider...

lower models of new range - need 1333 FSB compatible intel motherboard

E7200
E8190

older dual core to check out - need 1066 or 1333 FSB compatible intel motherboard

E4500
E4600
E4700

A E4500 is near to the price of a new E7200.

 

(154) Re: Please help with new graphics card

markymoo,

Congratulations on your new build project -really looks interesting,please keep us informed.
Some good links provided - the monster taking shape at Chez Markymoo shows what a big case the P190 is!

inerpeace,

Here is a link for overclocking an 8400-they achieved 4.4ghz from the stock 3 ghz-not too shabby.

article

 

(155) Re: Please help with new graphics card

markymoo, Thanks for the great info, especially the quote about the prices. Your project looks very interesting and I agree with Hairy Coo, please keep us informed.

I will experiment with my fans. I'm still communicating with Antec and should know soon if they are going to replace the fan as that is what they want to do since it does have a vibration. If I don't have to send the old one back, I will use it in the center or front upper chamber. No biggie if I have to send it back because I had planned on getting another one anyways.

You make a good point about eventually needing a bigger PSU. That will have to wait for a long while so I will have to run stock speeds until then. I would also have to consider the price of the heatsinks and fans. I also want to get a decent APC UPS to protect my investment and of course, a larger monitor in that order. If I was smart, I really should buy the UPS before anything else.

Thanks for your CPU suggestions. Why would someone consider a quad core Q6600 over say a core 2 duo 8400 or vice versa? They perform similarly according to the benchmark link you provided except for the 8000 series did a little better with video. Can windows XP make use of the quad?

Hairy Coo, Thanks for the link! It was very easy to understand for a newbie and shows off the potential of the 8400.

 

(156) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Multi core is the future. XP can do quad. A quad will own on multi-threaded applications such as encoding, video rendering and lots of maths processing. I know running a chess engine gives 2x more moves over a dual core running at the same clock speed. The time quad cores get properly utilisied on alot software will be a time when you upgrade again. A few applications and games take advantage of quad now. Quads were very expensive when they first came out and i mention now because they alot more affordable, and thats why we haven't seen much quad core software as not alot could afford. A 8400 is more than fast enough to run the best graphics. Alot of 6600 2.4Ghz quad core cannot be overclocked past 3.6 even on water no matter what. Once 8 cores come in properly next year then i'm sure having a quad will benefit but by then they be a new quad anyways. The debate still goes on as predicting the way the market will go is uncertain but Intel have stated using more and more cores is the way they will go and it be systematic that software designers will utilize that. There's always limit to how fast chips can go, so multi core will be exploited to the full. Unless you need to run a certain quad core application, a overclocked dual core will benefit especially for general use. They alot cases of getting 8400 to 4.5Ghz and 5Ghz with water. If you do alot gaming get a 8400 if you do alot multi tasking get a quad.

Edit:
Noticed E8400 are now $260! They were $199 in Febuary, so wait till the price and demand subsides. They releasing a small trickle of the new 45mm chips as they still alot of 65mm chips out there.

If you just want something to put you on for now and run games and general use and not run the latest and greatest then don't buy the latest fastest chip. Get a E4500 or E7200 instead that will still be more than you need. Once you get past 3Ghz the speed returns diminish and then it all comes down to the graphics card. Even a 2nd hand E6400 will suffice and save costs.

 

(157) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Thanks markymoo. You made some interesting points. I also found a long article about overclocking the Q6600 and E6750. I didn't get to finish it all, but it also mentioned a dual would save a person in energy consumption. http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/08/dual_vs_quad/index.html I think you and Hairy Coo are right in that a dual core would probably be best in my situation.

Can XP utilize 4 GB of RAM? They have A-data 4 GB for $72.99 with a coupon code. I really want XP, but they have Vista Home Premium with a coupon code for $80. They must be desperate LOL. They also had the Antec 900 $99 with a $40 rebate. I still like my P182 and they are suppose to be ordering me a new fan.

Also, what do you know about the E8300 that's going to be coming out at $170. It was mentioned in the Intel price drop quote above. Is it too risky to get a newly released product? Is it going to be next to impossible to see it in stock?

 

(15 Re: Please help with new graphics card

XP64 can. Or you can take advantage of today's prices on memory and buy the 4 GB and use it with XP32 without getting the whole 4 GB of physical memory available.
Buy the UPS (a 1000 VA unit is preferable) and forget about overclocking (IMO) until you feel somewhat "at home" with the BIOS. Mild overclocking (example: going from 2,4 GHz to 3 GHz) is the way to go to keep good temps, a silent system and without the need to raise voltages.

 

(159) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Hi Lucas, Thanks for the XP64 tip. I guess the "flip side" is that it's hard to get 64bit compatible drivers and software. I did do a little searching and some say that they can get XP 32bit to recognize 3.3GB. And some say 2GB is all you need with XP. DDR2 is really cheap right now and it would be hard not to consider 4GB over 2GB.

I can't worry too much about the overclocking because if it needs more power, I'm not sure my new 380watt PSU can keep up. I can't afford a new one now and I can't afford to be an extreme overclocker. It looks like a lot of fun though. A mild bump would be cool if I and my system could handle it.

I do need to get a UPS and that's a long term major investment. I want one with AVR so it can account for the slight voltage drops. That will have to wait for a while longer

 

(160) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Hi Innerpeace,

You really dont need more than 2gb of memory if using XP,which needs less than Vista.
Just buy 2gb of a matched pair of high quality memory which can be used when overclocking-the specs will depend on your choice of mobo,say 800 ddr.
I am running 2gb and its plenty-rarely do I exceed 25% usage measured by the mem. bar in the taskbar-even intensive tasks like photo editing dont use much more.
There would be no gain by using more mem.

Regarding the PSU power requirements, here is a calculator you can use-http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

 

(161) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Not if you become a Photoshop enthusiast or plan to run two VMs at full speed. When you get out of the "average usage pattern" you start to see hardware limitations (storage space, RAM, computing power, 3D power, bandwidth, etc)

That's my point. In mid 2009, DDR3 will be the mainstream memory technology, so the current DDR2 bonanza won't last too long. Buying 4 (or even 8 for the hardcore) GBs of RAM now is a wise choice for a system intended to last a fair time as you've stated.

A 500 W quality PSU is a safe bet for a mild overclock of mid/high-end components.
For your enjoyment, test of no-name/generic/el-cheapo PSUs

 

(162) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Hello Hairy Coo,

Point taken with the 2GB memory and XP. I'm just going in different directions without a place to land. There are sooooo many options and this is very new to me. Maybe it just is a weird time of the year to start a build. I'm really lost without a CPU and I'm the type of person that if I can spend a little more to get a better product, I will.

I have been checking the PSU requirements at that link every now and then and without overclocking an E8400, I hit at 286w. That's with 2 SATA HDD's, a floppy, 1 cd/dvd burner, 2 USB devices, 4 fans, a SoundBlaster card and I set the capacitor aging to 20%. Keep in mind that I won't have the floppy, SoundBlaster and only 1 HDD for now, I added those as eventual purchases.

I also have a newbie mild overclocking question. At what point during overclocking do you start using more wattage? Would it be only after you increase the voltage? No need to get into specifics, I was just curious what I could get away with using my current PSU and still be plenty safe.

 

(163) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Equations of CPU power consumption (grab a physics book from the closest library )

 

(164) Re: Please help with new graphics card

WOW! You really get over excited answering the OP's original question, he asked about Graphics card drivers,and it blows into him spending hundreds of dollars on a whole new system Why in the Hell cant people answer a simple question without getting exagerated

 

(165) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Innerpeace,

Regarding the memory,XP 32 can take 4gb see here,but unless you are going to extremes as mentioned by Lucas,cant really see much point.
If using Photoshop where page after page of mem. intensive layers are saved in mem,maybe-for the average enthusiast-not necessary.
But if its so cheap and it makes you feel good,why not.
Then if you do change to Vista, you will be glad having the 4gb.

Suggest rather than buying bits and pieces,wait until the E8400 comes down in price,then buy it,together with a good mobo,Gigabyte or Asus, and memory in one go-also a more powerful PSU-seems you are right on the limit.
Also,you will need a better CPU cooler for o/clocking.

Check out my overclocking link from 19Mar-it tells you how to o/c very simply on a Gigabyte board,you can just duplicate his BIOS figures on your new Giga boards BIOS and you are off.
A few voltages have to be increased-so waiting until you have the new gear would be best-wouldnt try it with your present setup.

 

(166) Re: Please help with new graphics card

I would like to run VMware Server and linux and the last time I tried, it was slow however. VMware Player was fine with me allowing it 384MB. I'm very new to linux and VM's and the cool graphic effects weren't working and I've since freed up 128MB since I've installed the new GPU. Memory for VM's is critical as it is future of computing.

Very true.

My current PSU is an Antec EarthWatts. I definitely wouldn't skimp on a PSU, that I promise .

Also, I ain't no physicist

 

(167) Re: Please help with new graphics card

I built my PC with The Antec EarthWatts Casing too the SONATA III 500

 

(16 Re: Please help with new graphics card

he is not splitting the atom

PS; XP32 will accomodate 4gb,see my post.

Innerpeace if you are going to run VMs etcetc just get 4gb!!

 

(169) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Not quite true

 

(170) Re: Please help with new graphics card

LOL, it's a long story DVD+R. It actually started in another thread with me wanting to buy a graphics card and then hearing that stock emachines PSU's may be flaky. I replaced the PSU then a couple months later bought the graphics card because it was a good deal and didn't realize that it was an overclocked version (that's totally my fault). It also ran warm in my emachines box and now is more powerful than my current system.

I've always wanted to build my own system and this is my chance. I also have great help that has experience and you can't put a price on that . Care to donate to the project LOL.

 

(171) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Well, its all going to a good cause -certainly the limit isnt 2gb

" you installed total 4GB memory, the system will detect less than 4GB of total memory because of address space allocation for other critical functions, such as:

- System BIOS (including motherboard, add-on cards, etc..)
- Motherboards resources
- Memory mapped I/O
- configuration for AGP/PCI-Ex/PCI
- Other memory allocations for PCI devices

Different onboard devices and different add-on cards (devices) will result of different total memory size.
e.g. more PCI cards installed will require more memory resources, resulting of less memory free for other uses."

"Large areas of the memory between three and four gigabytes are cordoned off for system devices in exactly the same way that chunks of the Upper Memory Area were purloined in the old days. Once again, the processor (and other system components) can talk with some devices by reading and writing memory addresses up above 3Gb" (Dan).

 

(172) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Will you take a check?

 

(173) Re: Please help with new graphics card

LOL, I think you have donated enough .

 

(174) Re: Please help with new graphics card

That does sound like a good plan. The $89 Gigabyte MB has good ratings on the site. I'm not sure about the PSU and cooler but I'll look into them if I decide to OC.

I did take a look at the link and it looked very easy. I guess the new chips make it that way now.

 

(175) Re: Please help with new graphics card

Yes the power saving another consideration but its really a nobrainer for your situation. A dual core will keep you happy long time. If it was me and getting a new faster chip, I buy Vista or XP64 because the full 4Gig can be used and if was upgrading i later buy a half decent motherboard, it will come with x64 drivers and there's x64 drivers for your graphics card so it won't be an issue. 90% of games and alot applications now run in x64. I have used x64 XP on a daily basis and ran everything i threw at it apart from Returnil security and a handful of others but i found altenatives. There was so much software choice it wasn't a issue and software specifically made for X64. I suggested XP 32 only because it 100% compatible and didn't want you to come unstuck if you had a certain program you ran that wasn't compatible. I suggest you check what software you run often and see if it compatible. If you want to run XP for your present motherboard and wont be upgrading for a long while then i suggest XP 32.

If you upgrading you got to think do i want something cheap and cheerful for now or do i want to run the good stuff in 2 years time without having to upgrade before that time. We are not trying to encourage you to get a bigger PSU or overclock but just to open your eyes to what you might want to do in the future with your system. The difference 8400 now with it's overclock potential will still be fast over the next 2 years so you won't have to upgrade for a long time except for a graphics card. Even a 4500 has potential and a good match with your graphics card. The A-data is good memory but for $15 more you might as well get these, the same ones i mentioned before, so many happy customers - on there speed vs. price. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231145 They won't limit your potential later on. More prefer the Antec P182 than the 900.

Alot on the Ram has been answered. It's another nobrainer. I would just say buy 4gig no matter if you use x64 or not as it very affordable for 4gig. It now same price buying 4gig to 2gig. It still alot better to have 3.2 gig over 2gig. You will use it sooner or later. Alot big multi-player online games from 2007 onwards really benefit from alot ram and will use all of it. The games speed up and less jerkiness in the graphics as more gets loaded into ram. I used some weak graphic cards but using more ram has put less strain on the graphics card.

I agree with Hairy Coo. Go with a Gigabyte board aslong as you get the right model. Gigabyte will be my next board. Asus are still great just i fancy a change and Gigabyte are equal if not better and the bios is good. Anyways get that 19" monitor first.

The E8300 will fill the gap and price between the E8200 and E8400 running at a speed of 2.8Ghz. The 8190 and 8200 are the same speed except 8190 won't have Virtualization technology and trusted execution like the rest. There's bugs in all chips even ones they dont fix later on. Any major flaws get picked up in engineering samples. Bios and software updates can fix a few. When they decide to fix new bugs they don't always make it public. They release a new revision chip called a stepping. A good example is the recent Q6600 B3 stepping that got updated to G0 which also got other benefits such as less power used. The Core 2 had 34 errors when it was released and not all fixed yet. http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/SPECUPDT/30922214.pdf The bugs are common on first generation chips especially new architecture so it is wise to wait for the next stepping which if any really serious bugs wouldn't be long after the first. Its the same for AMD. Retailers nowadays compete and go out of there way to tell you which stepping you are getting.

innerpeace that chip, the Amd 3200+ is an ideal chip to use in a build for a Home Theatre Pc
http://www.projecthtpc.co.uk/htpc_hardware.html

Talking of MultiCore...

@DVD+R
It's not like that. innerpeace had already considered before and PM'ed me before this thread even existed about upgrading parts on his present system. He opened up a thread so everybody could contribute. We are guiding him so he don't make any expensive mistakes. innerpeace bought a new graphics card that run too hot in his case, so he sensibly bought a decent case, while realising the Amd 3200+ and RAM just won't cut it running his current graphics card so he just asking for good advice on possible upgrade solutions within his budget and were just informing and maximising performance while keeping the cost down. It's upto innerpeace if he wants to keep his current setup or upgrade. It still a benefit to know even if he upgrades now or in the future. If he going to upgrade anyway it better he has informed choices.

its not:

problem with graphics card?

solution: buy a new system.

problem solved lol