Partitioning?

It's ALWAYS best to keep the OS in the PRIMARY ACTIVE partition. W2K and WXP can run in an extended logical partition, but the drives will change.

With multiple primary partitions, the partition that's NOT in use will be hidden from view.

 

OK. I better act NORMAL in the beginning, because it's all new to me. Thanks.

Aren't you the one, who uses "BootIt Next Generation" ?
If so, did you buy "Image for Windows" and "Image for DOS" also or are both not really necessary ?
Can I download the software immediately after paying the bill, because I don't trust shipments of CD's ?
Although, I don't know anything about partitioning, it seems to be an all-in-one and powerfull software.
If winXPproSP2 allows me to partition my harddisks during the installation, I will do it this way, but I think I will need BootItNG later to do changes in the partitioning without starting all over again from scratch.

 

I've tested IFW and IFD. Both are NOT required since Bootit NG already comes with a partitioning subprogram.

You should download Bootit NG and test it on your system. This software is FULLY functional during the trial period. If you're happy with the program, then you can purchase the software and you will receive a PW key to run the program beyond the trial period.

 

Thanks for the info and I will certainly start with the trial version.

 

My memory is pretty bad, so I appologize if you already addressed these issues, but...

Did you mention what type of controller/interface you will be using for your hard drives. It sounds as though you are equipped to use SATA drives? My computer uses the older technology: EIDE (enhanced IDE) also known as Ultra ATA , or PATA (Parallel ATA). In this settup you have a primary IDE channel for one or (in my case) two hard drives. The Secondary IDE channel can have two devices, normally some combination of CD and DVD drive. I'm definitely not a computer guru, but I was under the impression that its not that easy to install a third internal drive. Of course if you install controller cards, and so on, you could. Just throughing it out there.

You don't need to have more than one o/s installed to be assigned other something other than the C: I've never had two o/s's and I've used C, D, E, J, and K at one time or another. I wish I could tell you how other than to state the obvious: the installer words things in a very ambivalent way. I think it does just pull a letter out of the air, but at some not too obvious juncture it asks for confirmation and if you say no, it gives you other choices.

Just to be a nit-picker, it will not assign from A-Z becasue A, and B are not used for Hard Drives.

How does it know which hard drive to boot? for U-ATA most of the time it is due to "cable select". the end of the primary cable is used for the Drive #1 (which technically is drive 0), and the next connector is for the secondary hard drive. Its also possible to set the jumper (setting on the actual hard drives) to designate slave or master.

It's actually pretty hard to screw up with XP and U-ATA. From what I've heard SATA's easier still.


- HandsOff


MrKvonic: Gateway 2000 DX-33, Intel 486DX-II 66MHz, 16Mb EDO RAM, 520Mb HDD, 1.2Mb 5.25" floppy, 1.44Mb 3.5" floppy, 8x IDE CD-ROM, 3Com Etherlink III 10Mb NIC, NE2000 Compatible 10/100Mbit card

You mean you still have the first computer you ever had?

 

I'd use Bootit NG to partition the HDD BEFORE you install WXP. Make sure you set the C primary partition ACTIVE so you can load WXP. This is the best way for you to learn about the software. If you encounter problem, then wipe the HDD and restart.

Once you have loaded WXP, use Bootit NG to image that partition. You can burn the image file to another partition or to a DVD. Use this image file as the MASTER restoration. There is no need to you to reload WXP.

 

My old computer, after installing win2000proSP4 and without partitioning has :
"A:" = Floppy drive
"C:" = Harddisk
"D:" = CD/DVD reader
"E:" = CD writer
I didn't assign these letters, Windows did.

My new computer, after installing winXPproSP2 on harddisk-1 without any partitioning, I assume, it will look like this :

"A:" = Floppy drive-1
"B:" = Floppy drive-2
"C:" = Harddisk-1 (SATA)
"D:" = Harddisk-2 (SATA)
"E:" = CD/DVD Drive-1 (BenQ 1640)
"F:" = CD/DVD Drive-2 (BenQ 1625)

If I partition with winXPproSP2 or any other partition software, like BootItNG, I assume, it will look like this :
"A:" = Floppy drive-1
"B:" = Floppy drive-2
"C:" = Harddisk-1/Partition-1
"D:" = Harddisk-1/Partition-2
"E:" = Harddisk-1/Partition-3
"F:" = Harddisk-2/Partition-1
"G:" = Harddisk-2/Partition-2
"H:" = Harddisk-2/Partition-3
"I:" = CD/DVD Drive-1
"J:" = CD/DVD Drive-2

In the beginning, I will use my harddisk-2 as a backup for harddisk-1.
Later I will buy an external harddisk to backup harddisk-1 and harddisk-2, because I'm broke.

This is the very first time, I will have two harddisks.
I never did any partitioning.
I never separated OS from Application softwares and my personal files.
The final goal is to use ShadowUser as protection. That's the main reason why I'm doing all this.
So I have ALOT to learn and when you do something for the very first time, it always looks odd.
Have pity and patience with me, because this is going to be a thrilling adventure.
If I don't come back at Wilders, you know the reason.

 

Hi Erik,

I've been reading your adventures in partitioning thread with interest. Please don't take this the wrong way but you're making this harder then it really is. I understand you're apprehension about doing something for the first time but there is no magic to partitioning your hard drives.

I've been partitioning HDs for years with w2k and I'll assume XP is no different. First off, the process starts like this: create a partition on HD - 1, format that partition, install winXP. This can all be done with your winXP cd. Just set the computer bios to boot from the cd. As others have pointed out, there is no need for any other software to do the partitioning. When you boot from the cd the installation will see there are no partitions and ask you to create them.

C: will always be the drive (partition) with your OS. In my experience, whether you create all the partitions at once when you're first installing the OS or later on, the drive letters my not be exactly the way you want them ie: C: through H: for your HDs and I: & J: for your CDs.

Again, someone else pointed out that your can change the drive letters after the fact by going through >Control Panel >Administrative Tools >Computer Management >Storage >Disk Management. This is also where you can partition and format the rest of your HDs if you so please.

These are just my opinions but some things to keep in mind:

- Leave a good amount of overhead (free space) on each partition. I have at least 50%.

-The bigger the partition the longer it takes to defragment.

- If you don't keep a lot of videos or music files you don't really need big partitions for your data.

- If you don't keep a lot of games or programs you don't need big partitions.
I don't do either of the above two and 80GB hard drives have serve me well.

- Move your Swap File to the first partition of your second HD. I know there has been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of this but I can't see that it would hurt and it probably keeps fragmentation down and speed up.

- Move your environmental variables off your C: partition.

- Move your temporary internet files and e-mail off of the C: partition.

- Move My Documents and any other data files off your C: partition.

I may have forgotten some things to post but this should get you started. Partitioning is a very personal thing and everyone will have different opinions but that doesn't make them right or wrong.

This is my setup for what its worth:

HD 1 - 80GB drive
C: 20GB partition for OS and programs. - 85% Free Space (FS)
D: 5GB partition for Temp files and stuff that will get moved or deleted - 98% FS
E: 8GB partition for Downloaded zipped files and misc. - 79% FS

F: CDROM

HD 2 - 20GB drive (one of those crappy IBM deskstar that would crash and take everything with it if you put more then 8GB on it - at least I found a use for it.)
G: 3GB partition for Swap file (I don't use the whole 3Gb as a swap file) - 74% FS

Best regards,
Jaws

PS. I've found it helpful to write down on paper what you're thinking of doing as far as how many and how big to make partitions.

PPS. Save the money you'll spend on partitioning software and get Diskkeeper or some other defrag software. Much more useful and faster the the windows defrag software.

 

[what are environmental variables? You mean logs, maybe? just curious]


-------------------------------------------------

Yep, I use the same 20GB but only have 67% free. Lots of people are horrified by the waste, but I've got enough GB's

-------------------------------------------------

Here is my one little bone of contention, and I have hidden my feelings
in silence for too long. It is always stated everywhere by everyone that
it is best to use the o/s disk to partition the Hard Drive. The one thing I have never heard is why. Could someone please give a reason. Microsoft programs as a rule are quite stupid, and the partitioning and installing software is probably no better than the rest. It's slow, uses confusing language, and is not particularly user friendly. The only reason I know of for recommending it is that it will normally install the right file system.

If you buy new drives then it they will come with software to format the drives. If you don't, you can download it from their website. The software will work faster, and the instructions are rational. More importantly, it is an opportunity to understand the drive and its available diagnostic software.

I can guarantee there are opperations that the hard drives installation programs can provide that are not possible with the xp software. I am far from expert, but it would be good to know if there is any tangible reason to use the clunky, hobbled, M$ software instead of ... well, actually, instead of anything else! No offense to anyones personal preferences, because Jaws in 100 % right about that.


- HandsOff

 

Jaws,
Thanks for the support. I will need it and thanks for giving me tips for the sizing of the partitions !!!
I will print the whole thread on PAPER, because I won't be able to ask questions at Wilders, while I'm installing my new harddisks.
I'm sure, I will laugh at my difficulties, once I'm familiar with partitions.

 

Hi HandsOff,

Right click My Computer >Properties >Advanced >Environmental Variables. You can change User Variables and System Variables here. I point my TEMP and TMP User and System Variables to my D:\Z folder. You can do this for each user.

Yes, thanks, I forgot. Move your firewall logs off of your C: partition if you want.

Yep, GBs are cheap now.

I'm cheap! But seriously, it's not like you're installing a program, you're just partitioning your HD. I have never found it slow, confusing or non-user friendly. And once your OS is installed, you can do partitioning and formatting to your hearts delight.

This is true what you said (I didn't know it came with partitioning software too), and the HD diagnostics and noise reduction is helpful if you want to tweak your HD, but using it to partition and format is not necessary. Just my opinion.


I don't know if HD software comes on CDs now, but if they don't, some computer don't come with floppies any more (I guess you could DL and burn on a CD) but I've never needed a HD installation program. Set your jumper if you need to and plug it in.


Best regards,
Jaws

 

Hey Erik,

You're welcome. Glad if I could help.

Just remember, sizing of partition is all personal preference. Don't go by what I or anybody else uses. Your needs may be different, so adjust accordingly.

Good luck and best regards,
Jaws

 

Hi Jaws...so that's how you do it! I have moved as much as I could into my own folders, and never used my documents, my music, ect...But I have not used this feature. I guess I need to pay more attention!

Thanks for the info. "never needed to use software to install a drive" is pretty close to the target. I like the flexibility of being able to copy my entire operating system and files on to a new drive without needing to "re-install" windows or using "file and settings transfer wizards". Give me a break! When I want to transfer windows to a new drive, copying it is the only wizardry I want. I don't know how to do that with Microsofts tools, and I sort of doubt it can be done. Partition software: I'm for it. Nuff said.

Computers are fun, but I generally don't learn how to do something if it is not necessary, or have important benefits. Hard drives, defragmenting, paging file management are really interesting to me, because they make a difference. So is the concept of effective computer security using few resources. Also the concept of the most painless back-up and reinstallation of XP. Basically, I'm pretty interested in almost every thing talked about in this Alec's thread.

Alec, I hope you are not annoyed by my comments. My main reason for bringing the hard drive software up is that no one else did. As they say, one choice is the same as no choices.


- HandsOff

 

What do you think of this crazy idea. Is this possible ?
My old harddisk was only 17 GB and I don't do in graphics.
Keep in mind that this is pure phantasy. I don't have my new computer yet.

Harddisk-1 (74GB)
Partition "C:" = 10GB winXPproSP2
Partition "D:" = 20GB Folder "Program Files"
Partition "E:" = 40GB Folder "Documents and Settings"

I assume, I can move both folders with this software :
TweakUI v1.33 (freeware)
http://aumha.org/freeware/freeware.php#tweakui

Harddisk-2 (74GB)
Partition "F:" = 4GB pagefile.sys (SWAP-file)
Partition "G:" = 10GB Backup of Partition "C:"
Partition "H:" = 20GB Backup of Partition "D:"
Partition "I:" = 40GB Backup of Partition "E:"

Don't I need a backup of the SWAP-file
------------------------------------------------
Once I have my external harddrive for backup, it will look like this :

Harddisk-1 (74GB)
Partition "C:" = 20GB winXPproSP2
Partition "D:" = 54GB Folder "Program Files"

Harddisk-2 (74GB)
Partition "E:" = 4GB pagefile.sys (SWAP-file)
Partition "F:" = 70GB Folder "Document and Settings"

External Harddisk (160GB)
I don't have any clue for this one LOL.

 

Hi,
Give more to Windows, at least 20Gb.
You want to have a reasonable inflation space for new software, and of course, system restore. At my workplace, I work with a comp that has a C: partitioned to only 10Gb and it's pain in the ass.
At home, my C: drives are no less than 40Gb on any of the computers.
Mrk

 

Hi All,

HO,

You could right click on the Documents icon on your desktop, select Properties, and Move the Target Folder Location. But I know what you mean about having to except M$ decisions for folder locations... it bugs me too.

WOW, I wouldn't know what to do with 200GB.

Like I said, there is no right or wrong way, and you found what works for you. Except if you don't have an install to begin with, you can't re-install, which is what Erik needs to do.

I totally agree. If it wasn't for the people here and other forums, I would be even more ignorant then I am now. It just amazes me that people give their time and knowledge to other that they don't even know. I feel that I can give back by helping someone else, if I can.

Erik,

Keep in mind that when you install new software, you'll have to change the target location each time, if you move the Program Files folder to a separate partition. I would just combine the two into a 30GB partition for XP and Program Files. But that's just me, you should do whatever you think is right for you.

No, you don't.

While I won't assume to know your needs, 70GB is overkill for the "Document and Settings” folder. To give you a little perspective, my Document and Settings Folder is about 50MB. That's a M not a B. Your actual data partition should be the smallest partition, that is, unless you'll be saving a lot of video and music files.

My fantasy setup with your system would be:
HD1 - 74GB
C: - 30GB - XP and Programs
D: - 5GB - for temp stuff
E: - 35GB - video - music - zipped DLed Programs
Of course I would adjust C: if I needed more space for programs or E: if I needed more space for video and music, if I actually saved video and music, which I don't.

HD2 - 74GB
F: - 5GB - swap file
G: - 30GB - backup C:
H: - 35Gb - backup E:
When you get your external HD, use it to backup C: and E: and store it at an off site location.

Regards,
Jaws

 

I keep my C partition small and light. 2GB with 690MB used. WXP SP1.

 

Yes you are right about this. It's annoying and easy to forget to change the target location, when you install lots of software. I will do it your way including the rest of your suggestions.

The main reason why I'm doing all this is ShadowUser (SU) and I'm not going to ditch SU.
I want my freedom back on the internet without having 20-30 security softwares on my PC and SU's virtual environment allows me to do this.
I'm dreaming about this for more than a year and every step I take is a part of that dream :
- a new computer, because my old computer doesn't give me enough space and is worned out.
- learning partitioning to follow the recommendations of ShadowUser and for all the other advantages of partitioning
- image backup to get back in business in no time, when something goes wrong.
All this won't be a waste of time/money, even when SU is a disaster and afaik there is no scientific proof that SU ever failed.
Of course my lack of experience with partitioning and image backup will keep me away from using ShadowUser for awhile, but that's my mistake and my problem. I can't learn everything in one day.

So in the future I will put partition "C:" constantly in a virtual environment with SU, because partition "C:" will contain :
- winXPproSP2
- all reliable MS Applications
- all reliable third-party applications
That kind of protection allows me to install/try any software on partition "C:", trusted or not.
I don't even have to uninstall these softwares, because they will disappear along with all the possible infections, after the next reboot.

The main problem with SU is to keep the GOOD important changes, which means I have to move these objects from partition "C:" to another partition, that is not protected by SU.
If I don't do this my computer will get in trouble sooner or later.
My only trouble is, I don't know WHICH objects I have to move from partition "C:" to another unprotected partition.

Is moving the folder "Documents and Settings" or at least some folders under this folder REALLY ENOUGH
I don't even know if I can move the complete folder "Documents and Settings" to another partition.
I hope my poor English was enough to explain what I really have in mind.
Partitioning and image backup isn't my real problem, I'm not experienced, but that's a matter of time and I'm not that stupid.
It's keeping the GOOD changes that worries me the most, when I start using SU

 

BTW, there is a handy program called "Places Bar" by IoIsland. It let's you put your own icons on the places bar were common dialogues normally list five windows folders (my documents, my computer...desktop)

You are so right! There are enough good people on the internet that there will always be a solution to any problem. This sort of resource is totally unique.


-HandsOff

 

I think I'm wrong about this. I've read that if you use tweakui to move the Programs Folder, windows will automatically point the installation of new programs to the new location, sorry.

Some people will read this and think I'm nuts for telling you to make a 5GB partition for the swap file and they'd be right. A 1GB partition would be more then enough.

I've been doing some reading and so far it doesn't look like moving the whole folder is possible. That's too bad. I wish it was movable too.

A very good resource on partitioning and pictures of what I'll see when setting up partitions is here:

http://www.theeldergeek.com/hard_drives.htm

Partitioning A Blank Hard Drive During XP Installation will show you what you'll actually see when partitioning. This alone should take some apprehension away from what you'll have to do. Just remember you'll be typing the sizes in MB instead of GB.

Another good resource on Page File (swap file):
http://theeldergeek.com/paging_file.htm

Hope this helps. Regards,
Jaws

 

I would have tested this sooner or later. It doesn't matter. I always verify things myself.

I've read that even 500MB was enough, but this is just a detail.
If the size is too small make it larger, if the size is too big make it smaller. That isn't even a problem.

Well, that was my conclusion too after my readings. I will test it anyway.
If moving the complete folder "Documents and Settings" isn't possible, I have to find another way.
My info tells me, I can move at least 5 folders under Documents and Settings without problems.
I won't give up that easily, not with ShadowUser in mind.

Thanks for the links, I will read them.

At work, I'm used to verify information over and over again. That's not because I don't trust people, but people aren't always complete or forget to mention it or simply misremember, whatever.
I just need some arrows that point me in the right directions.
I knew from the beginning that the setup of ShadowUser wouldn't be that easy, but that problem is alot more interesting to solve, than clicking on a scan-button of a scanner.

 

According to Microsoft,

"Documents and Settings is a Windows system folder and is required for Windows to run properly. It cannot be moved or renamed."

D&S stores your profiles folders, and those can be remapped to another partition. Is this what you want to do?

Deep Freeze has a White Paper about this. If you want, I can look it up for you.

regards,

-rich
________________
~~Be ALERT!!! ~~

 

Any info is very welcome and I'm sure I would have the same problem with DeepFreeze.

The D&S folder has some subfolders, like "My Documents", "Application Data" (hidden) and 3 others, I don't remember right now and these 5 folders can be redirected according M$ in winXPpro.
I'm not sure, if that is ENOUGH and that insecurity is bugging me, but it won't stop me from doing what I have in mind.

There are thousands of application softwares and my assumption is that each of these application softwares store their variable information not always in the same way.
Some software use the registry, other use objects in their own software folder and even maybe in other system folders or any combination of these three and I'm talking about the IMPORTANT variables, that need be changed to keep the software running properly.

If one of these variable objects are located in a fully protected partition by ShadowUser, I assume that the application software, won't work properly anymore sooner or later, because ShadowUser will UNDO these changes during the next reboot.
Once I start using ShadowUser in combination with partitioning, I will soon find out. I knew from the start that this would be a problem.

I'm just asking all these questions, because I prefer to think ahead, that's my nature and if my assumption is wrong, just tell me

 

Hi Erik,

While I don't use SU or DF and I can't answer your questions about them, I'm surprised there isn't a contingency in these program (SU and DF) to allow you to easily provide for the proper implementation of their software. It's hard to believe that they would let you fend for yourself. I'm intrigued by this and hope you or somebody else has an answer.

Regards,
Jaws

 

Does your D&S folder look like this:

http://www.rsjones.net/img/doc.gif

Then, the folders you mention are in your profile folder, and the profile folder can be remapped. Check out these KB articles:

Cannot Move or Rename the Documents and Settings Folder
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;Q236621&

HOW TO: Change the Default Location of User Profiles and Program Settings
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;Q322014&

Before going to all of that trouble (I decided not to do so) think through your statements:

Have you checked all of your programs to see where the settings are stored? I have only two which store on C:

==> Photoshop - preferences stored in the Application Data folder. I use a .bat file to copy changes to another partition before shutting down, then copy back to c:\ on re-start. It's the only program I have that stores any settings in D&S so I opted not to remap it.

==> MS Word - settings and options stored in the Registry
I can't remember the last time I made any changes to Word Settings. If needed, I would thaw - make changes - reboot frozen.

I could see this being a hassle for those using programs where changes to the Registry were made frequently. Of course, you can't remap the Registry, and you wouldn't want to because then you lose the Registry protection that DF provides.

Another setting change in the Registry that is lost on reboot: MRU lists for both Windows functions (Start|Run) and programs that maintain a list of last opened files. I've never used these lists, so it doesn't bother me.

All other programs I use which necessitate changes, store them in their own .ini or .dat file in their program folder on another partition (which is by my choice).

I opted not to remap the Program Files folder because I want changes to that folder made during testing to be wiped clean on reboot.

Any new programs that install in that location will be made with C:\ in thawed state.

Not wrong at all, because if you don't think through the consequences of your setup...

I'm not sure about Shadow User, but Deep Freeze was designed for institution use, where changes to program settings rarely occur, and users have a virtual thawed partition set up for their data storage. DF is administered from a console on the server and maintenance|changes to all workstations are done from the server.

Eventually a home edition was developed without the virtual thawed partition, necessitating the user to have at least two partitions in order to have one thawed partition for storing data.

It's ideal for someone who isn't constantly adding|removing programs, and I've only set it up on one other home system, where the user's computing habits were similar to my own. As such, it's very robust and allows me to test programs and malware without needing a separate test machine.

One feature that SU has that DF does not is "commit changes":

"If system changes and folder or files changes occur during a virtual session, then these changes can be automatically or manually committed to the PC or server"

http://www.shadowstor.com/products/ItemPage.aspx?ItemID=83&ProductID=4

Wouldn't this allow you to save changes in settings before you rebooted?

regards,

-rich
________________
~~Be ALERT!!! ~~