OK, just what is True Image 9?

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by Howard Kaikow, Dec 26, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Page 6 of the User's Guide states:

    "The unique technology developed by Acronis and implemented in Acronis True
    Image allows you to create exact, sector-by-sector disk backups, including all
    operating systems, applications and configuration files, software updates, personal settings and all of your data."

    But it has been pointed out in other threads that TI is NOT really an image backup.

    Many folkes believe they are getting an "image backup".

    Indeed, page 7 of the User's Guide states:

    "Backing up disks and partitions is performed in a different way: Acronis True Image
    stores a sector-by-sector snapshot of the disk, which includes the operating system,
    registry, drivers, software applications and data files, as well as system areas
    hidden from the user. This procedure is called “creating a disk image,” and the
    resulting backup archive is often called a disk/partition image.
    Acronis True Image stores only those hard disk parts that contain data (for supported file
    systems). Further, it does not back up swap file information (win386.swp under Windows
    98/Me and pagefile.sys under Windows NT/2000/XP) and hiberfil.sys (a file that keeps RAM
    contents when the computer goes into hibernation). This reduces image size and speeds up
    image creation and restoration."

    But then goes on to state:

    "A partition image includes all files and folders independent of their attributes (including hidden
    and system files), boot record, FAT (file allocation table) and root.
    A disk image includes images of all disk partitions as well as the zero track with master boot
    record (MBR)."

    Clarification is needed.

    A disk image implies that ALL sectors are backed up.

    So how does TI know what sectors hacve changed? The user's guide states:

    "An incremental backup file only contains data changed since the last full or
    incremental backup creation. Therefore, it is smaller and takes less time to create.
    But as it doesn’t contain all data, all the previous incremental backups and the initial
    full backup are required for restoration."

    Is not TI doing a "file backup", in the guise of an "image backup" by not directly going thru the file system?
     
  2. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Posts:
    25,885
    Hello Howard,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis Disk Backup Software.

    Please be aware that when Acronis True Image 9.0 creates a disk\partition image it does a sector-by-sector backup regardless of whether the file system of the backed up partition is supported or not (corrupted).

    The only difference between these two cases is that when Acronis True Image 9.0 recognizes the file system (I mean that the file system is known by Acronis True Image 9.0 or in other words - supported) then it backups only the used sectors of the backed up disk\partition. Otherwise (in case of the unsupported or corrupted file system), there is no way for Acronis True Image 9.0 to determine which sectors are actually used and which of them are not, so it creates a sector-by-sector image of all sectors of the backed up disk\partition including so-called "free" space.

    Thank you.
    --
    Alexey Popov
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2005
  3. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802

    OK, some of the following is answerd in the user's guide, but I'd like to see an answer here.

    1. What is the difference between a disk image and a partition image?

    2. What about a drive image? I expect there is no such critter.

    3. What about "incremental" and "differential" backups? Obviously, these can work only if based on the file system(S) used. In these cases, the backups should no longer be called "images" as that misleads folkes into believing they have something quite different.

    In effect, TI is doing a "file-based" backup, but is bypassing the file system API. This is not an "image-based" backup.

    4. How does one FORCE a sector by sector image to be saved?

    5. Does TI 9 allow "image" backups of removable media, such as CD/DVD or ZIP drives? I could find this out by installing the demo, but I'm not going to do that until the next build is released.
     
  4. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Posts:
    25,885
    Hello Howard,

    As it is written in section 1.3 of the above mentioned Acronis True Image 9.0 User's Guide, a disk image includes images of all disk partitions as well as the zero track with master boot record (MBR). I'm afraid I have nothing to add to this statement.

    If you have any specific questions concerning the difference between a disk and a partition image then please let me know what exactly you can not understand. I'll certainly try to help you.

    I made a search through Acronis True Image 9.0 User's Guide and was unable to find any references to the word-combination like "drive image".

    Please be aware that we usually use two basic terms: a disk\partition image and a file-based backup.

    I assume that "drive image" is used to determine an image of the entire hard drive or at least an image of a single partition (logical drive) and so this conception is most likely the same as a so-called disk\partition image. However, I can not be completely sure, since as I have already mentioned above, we usually do not use such word-combination.

    I'm afraid that we can not guarantee the proper creation of the incremental or differential image in case of the unsupported or corrupted file system. However, it will not be a file-based backup, but a sector-by-sector image anyway. The only "problem" that may occur is that the newly created incremental\differential image will be of the same size as the initial full image. There also should not be any problems with restoring such an image.

    As I have already mentioned above, Acronis True Image 9.0 creates a sector-by-sector image in any case. However, if you want to create a sector-by-sector image of the supported and non-corrupted file system as if it was unsupported or corrupted then I'm afraid there is no way to do so, since Acronis True Image 9.0 does not allow you to switch between these two modes manually. The point is that the program detects the file system and then selects the appropriate backing up mode automatically.

    Please be aware that we have already received similar requests from other Acronis customers and they have already been forwarded to our Development Team. The ability to force a "complete" sector-by-sector image creation will probably be implemented in the future versions of a particular product, but exact time frame for this is not decided yet.

    I'm not completely sure what exactly you mean by "image" backups, but assuming that you talk about sector-by-sector images I should say that Acronis True Image 9.0 has a capability of backing up hard drives only.

    Thank you.
    --
    Alexey Popov
     
  5. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    I'm still not seeing a clear answer.

    A "sector by sector" backup is not a file backup.so I cannot undersand why Acronis's response keeps referring to sector by sector backup, even for the file-based backup.

    A true sector by sector backup has no way to distinguish used and non-used sectors, so a sector by sector backup cannot do incremental backups.

    I do not see how Acronis can claim that their file based backup is also sector by sector. THey can either backup the files going thru the system's API for the file system, or they can cheat and read the raw file system structures and copy those sectors, but it is in no way anything resemblink a sector by sector backup.
     
  6. shieber

    shieber Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Posts:
    3,710
    And this matters because...?
     
  7. Menorcaman

    Menorcaman Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Posts:
    4,661
    Location:
    Menorca (Balearic Islands) Spain
    I don't think there was any intention by Acronis to mislead users; more a case of incorrect terminolgy. I agree that, for correctness, the term "sector-by-sector" in the True Image User's Guide needs be replaced with the term "in-use sector" other than when talking about a non-supported or corrupt file system.

    Perhaps Acronis could consider this?

    Regards
     
  8. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    I've had a lot of experince with international standards development, so I'm fanilar with such language issues.

    The term "in-use sector" os at least as misleading as there is no way to identify the critters.

    There are conceptually two types of backup:

    1. ALL the sectors on which a logical drive is recorded, let's call this an image backup.

    Such backups have no knowledge of the file systems used, and cannot be used for incremental backups.

    2. File-based backup.

    There are two ways to accomplish this.

    a. Use the API provided for the file system and plod thru the system calls.
    b. Cheat, and directly use the recorded structures.

    Neither a nor b is a sector by sector image. Both are "in-use" "images", which may omit significant portions of a logical drive, if that logical drive has more than one file system.

    I am just disappointed that vendors to not precisely say what their software does. Other backup products are just as guilty.
     
  9. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Posts:
    316
    There has never been any question in my mind as to what TrueImage is backing up whether it be a clone, a partition image or an entire drive image:

    TI backs up only what its developers, in their own experience and judgment, have previously determined is necessary to ensure a successful clone/restore to the original source drive hardware. PERIOD!!!!!

    How come I know so much about it? Not because I'm any smarter than the rest of TI users but because of my own UNSUCCESSFUL experience with unique cloning and image creation:

    Here's some background:

    When Dell installs a freshly imaged factory hard drive in a new computer, the drive contains three original partitions: a C with OS; a hidden diagnostic; and a hidden Symantec image restore. There's also a unique master boot record which enables the Symantec restore partition - change it and the restore operation is 'broken'. TI can SUCCESSFULLY clone or image this type of original hard drive because the partitions already exist and all three (NTFS, FAT) are recognized by TI.

    Now consider this:

    When Dell ships out a warranty replacement hard drive WITH an image of the original customer software and OS included on the original factory hard drive, this uniquely imaged warranty replacement drive DOES NOT contain those three TI-recognized partitions.

    Instead, this Dell replacement drive contains a unique MBR for its own initial use along with a Symantec image partition and, for lack of a better description, a unique boot program which upon initial powerup, causes the three Dell partitions (C, diagnostics and restore) to be constructed while running under its own protocol (taking about 30 minutes of continuous restarting to complete).

    There is NO WAY TI can clone or successfully restore an image it creates of any such Dell warranty replacement hard drive containing this Symantec image and boot program.........

    UNLESS, upon initial powerup, the drive is first allowed to run the entire Dell/Symantec partition-construction program through to completion. ONLY THEN can TI be run successfully to clone or image this type of hard drive.

    What is the importance of the above example, how does it relate to this discussion and what does it prove beyond all semantics and translation arguments?

    With no doubts and regardless of how you define sector or in-use sector copying, this example proves (to me, at least) that TI DOES NOT use sector imaging in its pure sense nor does TI use in-use sector imaging as has been discussed in this thread.

    Instead, TI backs up only what its developers, in their own experience and judgment, have previously determined is necessary to ensure a successful clone/restore to the original source drive hardware, as I stated in the beginning.

    The DANGER in this concept is that when TI confronts a unique unknown circumstance, as in the case of the Dell/Symantec image placed on the warranty replacement drives, TI reverts to using a copy 'process' as previously determined by its developers.

    It sort of automatically 'guesses' how it should proceed with copying what TI developers predetermined might be important or appropriate under such unknown circumstances. The result of the TI 'developer prethought-and-default copy' is a complete disaster in these types of cases. TI fails to provide a usable clone or image because "true sector-by-sector copy" is absolutely NOT done in these unknown situations regardless of Acronis claims or explanations otherwise.

    I can't speak for the rest of TI users but this is PROOF POSITIVE for me.

    In light of my hypotheses and proofs, I have come to rely on TI for cloning and imaging ONLY in straightforward cases where it can be expected to succeed and then, only after it has been verified under every expected clone/restore scenario.

    The name TrueImage is just a name and the name should imply nothing beyond that the program is a reasonably functional backup program.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2005
  10. Snakeyes

    Snakeyes Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2004
    Posts:
    52
    This is a great thread and I wait anxiously for Acronis's response.
    Thanks all.
     
  11. CalamityJake

    CalamityJake Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Posts:
    8
    Good points, bobdat.
    Acronis need to get their minds together and come with a complete, coherent package. I find it weird that true sector-by-sector imaging of a hardddisk/partition are not correctly done and/or not easily accessible through simple GUI commands, especially since this type of imaging is the easiest to achieve technically (int 13h is your friend). Trying to interpret filesystem records on your own is a far more complex and error-prone task as anyone who's tried to understand/program NTFS drivers can confirm.
     
  12. Menorcaman

    Menorcaman Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Posts:
    4,661
    Location:
    Menorca (Balearic Islands) Spain
    Surely the point is that for the (silent?) majority of purchasers TI does what they require, namely, a straightforward "live" backup of the system partition/disk (be it full or incremental) in a reasonable period of time. This is one of True Image's main differentiators in a niche market.

    I'm sure there are plenty of "true" sector-by-sector disk imaging programmes out there but I for one don't wish to boot out of my O/S and wait for an eternity whilst all the sectors on my 120GB HD are backed up. To be honest guys, personally I don't care how it works as long as it successfully restores my system when required (which it always has done without fail). I'm willing to bet that many purchasers out there feel the same way.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2005
  13. starfish_001

    starfish_001 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Posts:
    1,041
    I tend to agree with Menorcaman. But if you want a true image then there are plenty of choices that are simpler and slower
     
  14. Snakeyes

    Snakeyes Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2004
    Posts:
    52
    If an application is essentially a "black box" but works consistently and effectively then I would agree. But when a crucial application is sold aggressively and then not only fails miserably but in that process, directly or indirectly trashes the users PC, then I have a problem with it. AT that point I have the right to be curious about its claims and method of implementation.
    I have been a long time user and supporter of TI (versions 7,8 ). Having upgraded to v9 and losing my files thanks to it, I am very curious about the questions raised in this thread. Those who are not interested in this information need not try to put this thread down. Cheers
     
  15. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Posts:
    316
    MenorcaMan, you usually have very good advice but this comment seems to be less objective than you are known to be. Maybe it's your frustration in dealing with a thread that seems to have no 'clean' answers. Here's what I am reading from your comments:

    Your claim that TI does what 99.9% of purchasers require it to do may be a vast exaggeration of fact. I'm sure that you really just offered the 99.9% number as strictly 'conversational'. That, though, really isn't important.

    What really matters is that TrueImage should do what it is advertised to do, which is what most users either expect it to do or think it will do. In fact, TrueImage does not in most cases, if you read Acronis' claims literally. The fact that TI does something much different than 99.9% of purchasers 'think' it is doing can cause much heartache and data loss in those circumstances such as I described above. There are many others that come to mind.

    So, to more accurately restate your observation, I would change it to:

    [Surely the point is that MANY purchasers of TI get what they require, namely, a DECENT backup of the system partition/disk in a fairly short time.]

    For the remainder of TI purchasers, like myself, who expect that TI will perform substantially as advertised and as represented on the official Acronis website and in the official Acronis Support forum, there can be some very serious product shortcomings and outright failures to perform at all, depending upon the task at hand.

    I think it may be somewhat presumptuous of you to imply that because TI has always worked for you, then others should accept it without questioning its method of task completion.

    Your statement "I'm willing to bet that the majority of purchasers out there feel the same way." may be true as long as those purchasers perform straightforward tasks as I outlined previously.

    However, I'm willing to bet that once that same 'majority' of users was properly informed of what TI can and cannot do when confronting some commonly encountered 'unknown' or 'unforeseen' data backup scenarios, then they would no longer be comfortable operating in ignorance.

    This may be a controversial topic but, accuracy in the description of how a critical backup program works may be just as important, in some cases, as whether the backup program effectively performs backups in most cases.
     
  16. Tsu

    Tsu Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Posts:
    61
    Hey guys... you are talking about a $30US backup/imaging/disaster recovery application - that's what I paid for TI9 and got a freebee 1 Acronis Privacy Expert and 1 freebee Personal Incident Support or each one I bought.

    If you are looking for forensic backups/restores you have to look elsewhere and open your wallet a whole lot more.
     
  17. bobdat

    bobdat Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Posts:
    316
    :D :D :D An occasional reality check is a real breath of fresh air. Thanks!
     
  18. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Well, now that I've had about 4 hours sleep over the past two daze, lemme try to state wHY I started this thread:

    1. I found the TI documentation to be impresise, and wanteda more precise statement, from Acronis of what the product does,

    2. The types of backups most folkes worry about are:

    a. A sector by sector backup of each logical drive. This is very useful for speedy backups and quick restores of each full logical drive. Partitioning of a disk can be done independently of such a backup.

    b. A sector by sector backup of the entire disk, including partition tables, etc. This is needed to backup the hidden partitions used on many drives.

    c. File-based back up. This is what most users really care about, i.e., to preserve their files. A file based back up allows for incremental back ups, the sector by sector backups cannot do incremental backups.

    There are two ways to handle the file system:

    a. By processing the raw file structures directly. While this is a lot faster, it is more prone to error because there are not that many developers who really understand the file structures. Alas, I am very familiar with this problem. See
    http://www.standards.com/index.html?HowardKaikow and http://www.standards.com/index.html?Standards.

    b. By working thru the API supplied by the OS. This is much slower, but is far safer.

    So, my bottom line questions are for Acronis to:

    i. More precisely state what each type of backup does.
    ii. Which offer a true incremental/differential backup.

    It is a waste of our time to try to guess what the product does. Acronis should be able to tell us quite easily.
     
  19. beenthereb4

    beenthereb4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Posts:
    568
    Good luck! You might like to know that this question has been asked (in various incarnations) many times over the life of this forum. It has never been accurately answered. (Perhaps because the support people do not know themselves or perhaps it is considered proprietary)

    From long experience, I have determined that their imaging method is a hybrid. Even their cloning method has not (in version 8 and below) produced a true byte for byte clone. As always YMMV.
     
  20. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Without adequate documentation of what the prigram does, it makes no sense to use TI as a BACKUP application.

    The functionality most certainly cannot be considered proprietary.

    If the "support" folkes cannot precisely state the priducts functionality, that implies other serious issues.
     
  21. Tsu

    Tsu Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Posts:
    61
    Howard, I thought that this discussion was interesting on an academic level but your 3 statements lost me.

    I image, images verify, images restore, systems boot ok, images can be mounted as virtual drives to restore specific files.

    I do incrementals, images verify, images restore from desired point in time selected by incremenal. Incremental images mount as virtual drives and I can restore a specific file of a specific date based on the incremental selected.

    I image across a network to a shared USB external drive that is swapped out and replaced regularly so one can always be off-site.

    I HAVE NEVER READ AN ACRONIS MANUAL NOR USED THE F1. Yes I have had problems with several of their builds and chose to stay with TI8b937 personally but have installed and used TI9b2323 successfully on client's PC's with external USB attached to the local PC.

    I'm not a rocket scientist, I've been through DOS based Ghost 5.* thru GUI based 9, PowerQuest Drive Image and even a few freebee imagers.

    I'm pragmatic and Acronis is about as intuitive as any I have seen. I don't do disaster recovery to the same computer, let alone the same drive ( secure zone ) as I don't consider that a backup. So there are several features of TI I have never played with. But I have cloned, resized to larger and smaller drives and on a few stuborn platforms had to use the CD Boot.

    Howard, should I abandond TI because I don't understand how the ones and zeros on my HD get read, compressed and saved onto another media as a *.TIBo_O

    Heck, I don't understand how some basic Window I/O works... should I abandon Excel and go back to an abacus, abandon Word for pen and paper and a postage stamp?

    If I were Acronis I wouldn't show my hand on how I determine what to backup on an incremental, how I do an "image which we all recognize is not an image" when specific files are not backed up and have place markers, ignore sectors full of deleted files etc. It wouldn't matter if it was proprietary, copy written or if they were using GNU and Open Source except that the later 2 would require disclosure.

    I can agree that on some stuff buried in this thread that Acronis should disclose what, and what does not, get imaged/backed up under various regimes. How it is none is none of our business. I can see that if you cloned a disk and thought that you might be able to unerase a file on the new drive that was deleted on the old drive, you might be pee'od. I personally have not worried about the Dell "3 partition issue". If you wish to preserve the 3 partitions then use the TI image to restore data only by mounting the image as a virtual drive and drag and drop. I have never shyed away from starting with a clean new OS and rebuilding the system without all the crapola that has transpired over 2 or 3 years of installs, uninstalls etc.


    Hmmm... I think I'll do a backup now even though I don't know how or why it works.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2005
  22. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Posts:
    25,885
    Hello Howard,

    Please accept my apologies for misunderstanding your initial questions. I thought they are related to a disk\partition imaging, but not to a file-based backup. Actually, I still can not find any references to a file-based backup in your posts #1 and #3, since all the quotations from Acronis True Image 9.0 User's Guide you made as well as all the mentions of the difference between a disk and a partition image, definition of a drive image and a sector-by-sector image are related to a disk\partition imaging, but not to a file based backup.

    1. Regarding the disk\partition imaging.

    Please be aware that we have never claimed that Acronis True Image creates a sector-by-sector image of all sectors of the backed up disk\partition. Actually, as I have already stated in my post #2, this only applies in case of the unsupported or corrupted file system.

    Here is a quotation from section 1.3 of Acronis True Image 9.0 User's Guide which should answer all sector-by-sector imaging related questions that appeared in this thread since my last reply:

    "...Acronis True Image stores only those hard disk parts that contain data (for supported file systems). Further, it does not back upswap file information (win386.swp under Windows 98/Me and pagefile.sys under Windows NT/2000/XP) andhiberfil.sys (a file that keeps RAM contents when the computer goes into hibernation). This reduces image size and speeds up image creation and restoration..."

    2. Concerning the file-based backup.

    Please be aware that Acronis True Image 9.0 uses a "file system API" approach when creating a file-based backup.

    Please also note that I'm not eligible to provide you with the more detailed information on how Acronis True Image 9.0 creates a disk\partition image or file-based backup than that I have already provided.

    If you encounter any specific problems with using Acronis True Image 9.0 then please feel free submit a request for technical support or post any of them on this forum starting the new thread for each separate issue. We will certainly try to help you.

    Thank you.
    --
    Alexey Popov
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2005
  23. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    "unsupported or corrupted file system" is the red flag. This means that the backup is really a file system based backup, and only backs up what the file system knows about. That's a rather simple statement. Can Acronis confirm its correctness? Otherwise, please correct the statement.

    Indeed, the only way that Acronis can identify the secttors used by, say, the swap file is by going thru the file system, or by vetting the file system structures themselves.


    That's what I would expect.

    I'm not interested in HOW TI is implemented, just the functionality provided, i.e., what information is actually backed up.
     
  24. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Functionailty provided by TI 9

    In a number if threads, I and others, have been asking questions along the lines of "Is an image backup a true sector by sector backup?" and "Is not the backup really just a file-based backup bypassing the file system API?".

    Well, I, and I get the feeking others, are not yet satisfied by the answers.
    So, let's turn the questions around and ask HOW TI provides particular functionality, not what does XXX mean.

    So here goes:

    1. Is it possible to do a full sector by sector backup of a logical drive? How?
    2. If it is NOT possible to do a full sector by sector backup of a logical drive, just what sectors are omitted? How?
    3. Is it possible to do an incremental/differential sector backup of a logical drive for a sector backup created in 1 supra? How?
    4. Is it possible to do an incremental/differential sector backup of a logical drive for a sector backup created in 2 supra? How?
    5. For each type of incremental/differential sector backup, how are changed sectors tracked?
    Is such tracking done for each sector backup separately, or is there one tracking mechanism that applies to all sector backups?


    6 Same questions as in 1-5 supra, but apply to a hard drive, rather than to a logical drive.

    A. Is it possible to do a full file backup of a logical drive? How?
    B. If it is NOT possible to do a full file backup of a logical drive, just what files are omitted? How?

    C. Is it possible to do an incremental/differential file backup of a logical drive? How?
    D. If it is NOT possible to do an incremental/differential file backup of a logical drive, just what files are omitted? How?
    E. For an incremental/differential file backup, how are changes tracked?
    Is such tracking done for each backup set separately, or is there one tracking mechanism that applies to all backup sets?
     
  25. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Re: Functionailty provided by TI 9


    How did the above posting become part of this thread?
    I posted it as a separate thread for stated reasons.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.