NSA has direct access to tech giants' systems for user data, secret files reveal

Discussion in 'privacy general' started by Dermot7, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    The issue of standing (and lack of it) brings the law into disrepute in my opinion - precisely because of the secret Catch 22 aspect, so this judgement is a slight step forward (but did not apply to Amnesty who were co-plaintiffs).
     
  2. lotuseclat79

    lotuseclat79 Registered Member

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    Standing does have its proper uses, like keeping the trolls at bay. If it were not for standing, then the courts would be inundated with useless lawsuits. An example of standing (not related to security or privacy) is that the NFLPA is the only entity with standing left in the case of Deflategate when Patriots/Brady decided to serve 4-game suspension (brilliant move) as they cleared the slate and won last season's SuperBowl without having to worry about potential scheduling problems between a potential Supreme Court case vs SuperBowl planning!

    -- Tom
     
  3. hawki

    hawki Registered Member

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    FWIW:

    It is my understanding that Amnesty International was not a co-plaintiff IN THIS case. Amnesty had failed in an earlier, but basically similar case, when The Supreme Court in Clapper v. Amnesty International USA , 133 S. Ct.1138 (2013) , held that the allegations in the complaint were too speculative to establish standing.

    In this recent Wikipedia case, largely because of the Snowden and subsequent disclosures, the 4th Circuit concluded that "...Clapper’s analysis of speculative injury does not control this case, since the central allegations here are not speculative..."

    Wikipedia Case:

    https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/73._4th_cir_opinion_5.23.2017.pdf

    Clapper v Amnesty Intl Case:

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-1025_ihdj.pdf
     
  4. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    Yes, excellent point. The courts are paying attention. Even the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court :)
     
  5. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

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    @lotuseclat79 - agree with the value of standing, and in a way, common law is based on demonstrable harm. However, this principle clearly fails when it comes to secret laws and secret application of the laws based on advice from "bent" attorneys being paid huge sums in public money to give outlandish interpretations without challenge, and not getting your day in court (and this is the damage to the rule of law). Basically, I think the judicial system has to wake up to some reality checks whenever the security card is played as a defence, and at the very least, demand to see evidence in private. After all, the more leaks there are, the more the government story is shown to be a disreputable scam.

    @hawki - thanks for the clarification.
     
  6. Thankful

    Thankful Savings Monitor

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  7. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    In case I haven't mentioned it, this is an amazing read about the history of SOD: https://www.deamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/042215-DEAMuseum-LectureSeries-MLS-SOD-transcript.pdf

    John Wallace was very candid about the motivation to circumvent post-Watergate policies, which had been implemented to prevent warrantless "electronic surveillance and eavesdropping on American citizens":
     
  8. RockLobster

    RockLobster Registered Member

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    I often wonder how history will view this entire post 9/11 debarkle that makes a mockery of everything most of us grew up believing our democracy's, our governments and the law stood for. I for one find the entire thing from who may really have been responsible for the trigger event to the response that created this monsterous parody of what most of us used to call right and wrong deeply saddening and disturbing. I imagine new generations will grow up believing constant surveillance is normal and good for society and those of us who tried to speak out against it were extremists. Having said that, I think we are already being branded extremists and subversives. Oh well....
     
  9. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    One goal of terrorism is forcing governments to oppress their citizens. Because it creates disaffection and instability.
     
  10. NormanF

    NormanF Registered Member

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    The ultimate hacker is the US government itself... that hypocritically runs around screaming at Russia for doing the same thing.

    That official intrusion into our daily lives is here to stay for good.
     
  11. RockLobster

    RockLobster Registered Member

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    Another potetential use of terrorism is to create a climate of fear under which certain groups who know their position in society always faces the risk of overthrow and revolution can try to secure that position by implementing systems that help to subjugate and supress the said masses under the guise of anti terrorism because the said masses are also guillible and easily decieved.
     
  12. plat1098

    plat1098 Guest

    And what can we do about it? We're like bugs in amber. Cyber attacks en masse are particularly scary to those who reside in huge metro areas like New York City, and in any resultant chaos, accusations may fly but who knows, evidence can melt away. Internet ranks next to food and drink; terror cells have proved many ghastly times that no nation is impervious.
     
  13. hawki

    hawki Registered Member

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    "CIA reportedly [/could have] hacked Wi-Fi routers for years

    The CIA has been hacking home, office and public wireless routers for years in an effort to carry out clandestine surveillance, according to classified documents seen by CNET sister site ZDNet.

    The intelligence agency had by mid-2012 developed implants "for roughly 25 different devices from 10 different manufacturers," including Asus, Belkin, D-Link, Linksys and Netgear, according to one 2010-dated document..."

    https://www.cnet.com/news/cia-reportedly-hacked-wi-fi-routers-for-years-wikileaks/

    https://www.wired.com/story/wikileaks-cia-router-hack
     
  14. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    That's why we hard wire sensitive stuff :) Shielded, of course.
     
  15. lotuseclat79

    lotuseclat79 Registered Member

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  16. Palancar

    Palancar Registered Member

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    Further, it doesn't really matter if payloads get "picked off" via WiFi as long as those payloads are encrypted! No brainer really
     
  17. RockLobster

    RockLobster Registered Member

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    Depends how they are encrypted. If anyone thinks organisations that approve standards for the internet have not been infiltrated by those persuing an agenda of compromised security for the purpose of facilitating surveillance, they are delusional.
     
  18. hawki

    hawki Registered Member

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    "Post-Snowden Efforts to Secure N.S.A. Data Fell Short, Report Says

    ...The N.S.A. failed to consistently lock racks of servers storing highly classified data and to secure data center machine rooms,according to the report, an investigation by the Defense Department’s inspector general completed in 2016. The report was classified at the time and made public in redacted form this week in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The New York Times

    The agency also failed to meaningfully reduce the number of officials and contractors who were empowered to download and transfer data classified as top secret, as well as the number of “privileged” users, who have greater power to access the N.S.A.’s most sensitive computer systems. And it did not fully implement software to monitor what those users were doing...."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/politics/nsa-data-edward-snowden.html?_r=0
     
  19. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    Thats right. The question to ask then is surveillance for what?
     
  20. Osaban

    Osaban Registered Member

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ocuments-reveal-CIA-hacked-Wi-Fi-routers.html
     
  21. RockLobster

    RockLobster Registered Member

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    Someone or someones, purhaps some of us needs to start writing letters to politicians to remind them of something that all our countries are signataries to:
    http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
    I read all the articles in the charter, it's quite sad really. When you read it, the intentions of our leaders of that time to make a better world for everyone and look what we ended up with. If you have a few minutes and have not done so, have a read of it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  22. Minimalist

    Minimalist Registered Member

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    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/07/more_on_the_nsa_2.html
     
  23. Minimalist

    Minimalist Registered Member

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    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/08/nsa_collects_ms.html
     
  24. DrearyMushroom

    DrearyMushroom Registered Member

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    Interesting theory here from Marcy (emptywheel) arguing that the NSA does collect entirely domestic communications involving communications via Tor or VPN. The full article gives way more analysis.


    https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/09/...t-certainly-obscured-location-communications/
     
  25. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    It's prudent to assume that the NSA intercepts whatever it can. As I understand it, "collect" means "show intercepts to humans". Intercepts can be processed by machines, and that's not considered to be "collection". I'm not clear whether showing aggregated or derived results from such analyses to humans is considered to be "collection" of the underlying data.

    Anyway, it's prudent to assume that the NSA intercepts whatever it can. And does whatever it likes with it. And at best, tells third parties what they want to hear about its practices. And of course, lies as a general policy.
     
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