Norton/Symantec sells out

Discussion in 'other security issues & news' started by Fly, Feb 3, 2009.

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  1. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    But that's an extreme example, in fact, you're talking trojan-like behavior. I'm referring to the standard practice of 3rd party gathering of statistical information like age, sex, location, surfing habits and such. There may be a few vendors out there that don't sell or otherwise transfer such information to 3rd party advertisers, or, at the least, use that information themselves, but they are few, and getting fewer, far between.
     
  2. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    Companies, 'The State', ISPs and other organizations collect information about you when and where you surf the internet.

    And it's not just the internet, also the use of certain cellphones, where you register (online or offline) your personal data (examples: health insurance, security vendor, certain discount cards, financial institutions, online communities etc).

    Profiles are being created. Much more is possible than most people know, I've read that billboards could personally target ads to whoever is around by name !, but that isn't done because of the backlash that that could create !

    It's not just completely anonymous data.

    And companies exchange data, sell data, companies and 'The State' leak data, data and identity theft etc.

    The only way to prevent abuse of that data is not to gather/store it in the first place.
     
  3. TechOutsider

    TechOutsider Registered Member

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    It incorporates Norton Safe Web ratings with Ask search and the Norton toolbar. So, you have a toolbar, with an ID vault, an ask search box, and safe web ratings on your ask search page.

    Of course, there are some privacy implications. Ask will track your internet surfing activities.
     
  4. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    So will Google, so will Microsoft, so will your ISP, and so on. Your ISP follows you more than Ask ever will.

    @Fly: You will not find anywhere/anyone that does not store data on you, whether it's the most sensitive or most mundane. Your data is spread all over the world in some form. That's one of the downsides of the world being "connected".
     
  5. CountryGuy

    CountryGuy Registered Member

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    This is true; However, it is not behavior I expect from my paid internet security product.
     
  6. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    You may not expect it, and it may bother some people, but it does and will happen. The sharing of "non-identifiable" information is a part of just about every EULA out there, whether it's for statistical information, advertising, whatever. Gone are the days where your information was stored and used only by the companies you directly deal with.
     
  7. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    More info about what Norton is getting. 1$ per installation. (not bad!). Who's next?


    Also, an open letter from Donna to Symantec:

    http://msmvps.com/blogs/donna/archi...-with-this-symantec-partner-with-ask-com.aspx

    (of course, poor Donna, is wondering "why the toolbar"... Well, the 1$ a pop gives the answer).

    And yet another open letter:
    Attention: Anti-spyware Coalition and to All Security Scanner software vendors

    http://msmvps.com/blogs/donna/default.aspx


    EDIT:

    Also interesting:

    http://www.calendarofupdates.com/updates/index.php?showtopic=16253

    http://www.haloscan.com/comments/alexeck/7063871854859978185/#406495
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2009
  8. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Supplement. From the Symantec employee in their forum:

    Seems their current plans involve that the "easter egg" will be on by default. Because it's "Safe search functionality"! They do it to benefit the user, really!

    Poor Norton users... They won't know what hit them (unless the protest rises). For the cosy price, of € 49.99! :D Nice "functionality"!
     
  9. Zom17

    Zom17 Registered Member

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    Webroot did this a two years ago. I never renewed and never looked back
     
  10. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    It's just crazy that Symantec/Norton does that for just 1 USD !

    1 USD compared to the price of this already expensive product.
    Presumably they could hike the price a bit, or adjust market tactics.

    They are shooting themselves in the foot over this !

    What's the matter ? Aren't the bonuses of the executives not high enough ?

    They are harming themselves in the long run.

    I was even considering moving to Norton, but that's definitely not going to happen !
     
  11. CountryGuy

    CountryGuy Registered Member

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    I have to be honest; While it doesn't impact NIS 2009 thus far, I'm disgusted enough that I'm already looking at alternatives. I have access to use MS Forefront at home, I'm wondering if I want to go that route and bypass the consumer stuff forever.
     
  12. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    That thread confuses me. is the safe search function (which I assume is Safe Web, which, when I used it, was a separate Beta download) integrated with Nortons standard toolbar or the Ask toolbar? Unless SafeWeb is disabled with the Ask bar, I still don't see what the big thing is. And to be honest, the SafeWeb addon wasn't that great and stalled a lot of surfing (I got rid of NIS 2009 and am now back with good ol Avast).
     
  13. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Personally, i am against all this pushing it down the throat and unlike Security vendors (Eckelberry is free to forget and forgive, i won't), i am a consumer with long memory. For me companies that made money from adware/spyware, are something like real-world's criminals/mafia/drug dealers. And as such i would never want them to have to do anything with me and even more pay them as reward for the way they got rich.

    However they intend to implement the thing, i don't know. The post of Symantec employee comes as a reply to someone who requests to have the thing non-prechecked in installation. From what i understood, whatever they 've taken from Ask, is going to be on (probably embedded in the Norton Safe search toolbar) and from what he says, there won't be any opt-out at all during installation, let alone non-prechecked.

    I know that for you it's not a big deal, we 've been all over that again and Symantec surely agrees with you and would love if all people had the same opinion. Soon, we ll have AVs with toolbars, firewalls with toolbars and so on and we will be paying for them too! That's the funniest part!


    P.S: I loved how it whitelisted Zango, which was a client of Ask.com from what i understood in Bill Pytlovany's blog. How do they say it "you can't forget an old love!" . :D

    Zango is goooood!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zango
    http://www.spyany.com/program/article_adw_rm_Zango.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  14. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    LOL! The price of Norton AV you pay in euros (49.99) is with current exchange rate, 65$!!! And that's ain't enough for them! They have to push you the Ask too to get the extra dollar! What should minor vendors do? Start putting plain add banners inside the AV?

    Norton 360 (which for now is the only one that will have it) retails at 89.99 euros!!! That's 116,40$ !!! And you PAY them all that money so that they can also get the bloody 1$ from the old friend of adware companies, just to reward it for making money that way?

    Sheesh! I am informing everyone i know about this.
     
  15. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Maybe they had invested company capital in Lehman Brothers stocks and now they 're trying to find a way to get back the lost money and so the paying customer must help them into that.

    I find already unfair their charging tactics. The US Norton 360 retails at 79.90$ , but for me, just because i am European, it retails at 89,90 euros = 114,40 $.

    Just because the euro retains strenght, doesn't mean that the income in Europe grew overnight. As a matter of fact, purchase power, in many countries after the introduction of euro was reduced.

    And with their price strategy, they have a HUGE gain from euro-customers. Not only they charge them more in absolute numbers, but with the exchange rate, the difference becomes even bigger.

    - US customer : 79,99$
    - EU customer : 89,99 euros. = 114,40$

    Poor little Norton, they should take 1 more $! :thumbd: :thumbd: I suggest they put a PayPal donation banner in their site too and invite everyone to help them! I 've a flatmate that earns 800 euros a month and pays 300 euros for rent, i will tell him to rush in buying Norton 360 and also to donate to save poor Norton and make richer the "oh, i have now seen the light, forgive my sins and Zango, Ask.com".
     
  16. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    As I've said before, if this comes in the form of "forget it, it WILL be installed, no options", Norton can kiss my behind. At that point it's no longer about Ask cleaning up their act or not. And Zango? Are they that stupid? That stuff is/was a pain in the ass.
     
  17. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    It may be a pain, BUT, reading Bill's blog, i presume, they were also a paying customer to Ask. (they told Bill "we 're not directly connected to them"). So, you know how it becomes... You can't always just cut every bond, specially when they were paying you... It's what happens when you have a not so clear past behind you. Sometimes you can't get completely rid of it. (Personally i think they will eventually blacklist Zango, because this is getting pubblicity. Now, as for other "ex clients" of Ask, besides Zango, now that's another story, i guess you will have to trust them...).

    Anyway, for me all this is disturbing, because as Eckelberry says, people like Pytlovany are becoming a "dying breed" of people. Why? Because consumers behave like brain-dead sheep. Nothing seems to upset them anymore. Everyday, software companies go a step further into abusing customers and people stay passive... This must change. You have to trust software vendors that when you activate product they don't get any info that you don't like (i can hardly believe it, since they have your name). Now you have to trust the "I am now reformed, now that i got rich from adware" that will provide you with "safe"-search in the most well-known AV in the world and won't send any info on it's own house. And live with the idea, that a product that costs 114,40$ must also install you this thing, because it's only fair to get one more $! I 've never seen this before. This is like "I PAY you to use me, so that you get paid more than i already paid you for!". What's next?

    After this, why should it be abnormal if freeware or even less known payware programs start installing 5-6 toolbars/3rd party programs to earn 3-4$ per pop?

    This is i-n-s-a-n-e and risks creating a very dangerous trend.

    EDIT:

    I also have a proposal for Norton. If they lost their money in Lehman Bros stocks and can't sustain their current structure with the "small" price they make the paying customer pay, maybe they need to take a brake: Suspend the AV business, go into adware business, that looking at the way that Ask.com is distributing 1$ left and right must be really profitable and when they get rich again, declare they 're over with adware and re-open the AV business. Or... have they asked Ask.com if they would be interested in... buying Symantec? Now that would be real fun to see! First you get rich dealing in adware and then go into security! LOL! Like voting an ex drug dealer for PM, because he has so much money to throw into electoral campaign that nobody can beat!
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  18. Eice

    Eice Registered Member

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    That's one of the problems with free markets and democracies. It sucks to be you, if you don't agree with the consensus of the majority.
     
  19. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    The problem is, it's not that the others "agree". They simply don't KNOW. Probably this one will get embedded and people who buy Norton won't even know that inside there is something from a 3rd party company. This has nothing to do with democracy. It has to do with lack of information and with the fact that software is a jungle. Nobody monitors what a software does or does not. And democracy has little to do with that.

    If an analogy of the above was to happen with more "concrete" products, that average Joe can understand, would many approve? It happens in software, because most don't even read EULA, most won't even understand that Norton has bundled something of the notorious Ask and all is fine!

    Does anyone control what's actually sent when you make an online activation? If you are uniquely identified? No. Because it's a jungle. Goverments have 60 year old politicians that barely know how to switch on a PC, let alone understand what happens in software. It took them over a decade to find out that IE and WMP are "bundled" with Windows and ask for their removal (now we can all sleep safe, that they resolved the main problem in the digital world!). Now, to get into more "fine stuff" like that, you 'll have to wait 30 years.

    Sure sucks to be "me". Ignorance, is a bliss.
     
  20. Eice

    Eice Registered Member

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    Some of us aren't so paranoid about anything and everything that tries to phone home, you know.

    There are plenty of people who could care less about this stuff as long as it works right and brings no practical disadvantages. Neither do they pull out their hair or toss and turn in their sleep just because IE and WMP come with Windows. I know I'm one of them.
     
  21. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    - For every other product/service in the planet, there are rules on what is allowed for a product to do and what minimum criteria must satisfy in order to be allowed to be sold. The state will come and control you to see if you live to that standards and if you violate the regulations or not.

    But not for software! There is no regulation! If the politicians were serious, by now there would be legislation controlling software too, like there is about ANY other product or service, from what artificial colour you can put in a candy to the minimal amount and quality of oil that a certain type of salad must have to be served in a restaurant.

    - Who controls and regulates what is allowed to be done in online activation and on what is the license tied on? (the hardware? the software? one particular hardware? one particular software edition?). Who controls what's sent out to the vendor? What is allowed to be sent in order to protect privacy?

    - What must a program allowed to do in order to be labeled as freeware, shareware, adware, payware? Is there a minimum quality of service required and what is that? What's the punishment for violating the above?

    - Should a payware software bundle 3rd party code? If yes, is the current information scheme enough to make the customer be aware of that?

    It's funny. In EU you buy corn flakes and if they have genetically modified corn over 1% (which is negligeable really), the product must indicate clearly so on the box. It has artificial colours?It must be indicated in the ingredients. You buy bananas? They must say the origin. You buy meat? It must specify if it was imported and where it grew up and got slaughtered. You buy a software in boxed version and you don't know what you 'll find. 3rd party driver for copy protection? Online activation? 3rd party toolbars? 3rd party program? You will only know AFTER you break the seal.
     
  22. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    I know!

    I bet you are and you must be every corporation's and goverment's dream.
     
  23. Eice

    Eice Registered Member

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    Let's try to not be so confrontational about this. In grey areas like these where things are largely left to personal preference, people inevitably have varying levels of tolerance. Some people will object to things simply out of principle, others do so based on whatever practical consequences there may be.

    I've seen people who're horrified simply by the thought of anonymous statistical data being collected by legit products for legit purposes, people who get their knickers in a twist whenever one of their programs so much as pop up a firewall prompt. While I don't agree with them, that doesn't mean I'm ignorant of such issues or being unreasonable, and the same holds true for those people for not agreeing with me.
     
  24. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    I don't think i was the one that started using certain expressions over you. (well, unless you 're Norton's CEO undercover, in that case i do understand :) ).

    I agree. But here's also the lack of govermental control. Because, as with many things, people don't KNOW! It's not about preference at this point. For example, you want to have a toy doll imported to EU and sell it? It's not left up to preference! It must take the "CE" label before, after satisfying some criteria (about materials, resistance etc). This, to PROTECT the people that would buy it, without KNOWING what they buy. Because one doll looks like any other for most people... You could leave it to preference. But you don't. Cause it's fair to protect the consumer! Why should software be different?

    Yes! Having a uniquely identifying CPU core, or Opera number became an issue. While at the end, these can't be directly related to you! But, i purchase a product, they have my name and address, each time i activate (only?) they most probably at least know my name and that my IP , and oddly enough, it doesn't surprise anyone. I am baffled...

    Maybe, just like with any other products, there should be a legislation, so that personal taste aside, things that are allowed and not should be clear for all. In that way, there wouldn't be any confrontation at all, based on personal paranoia or tolerance, would it...

    I mean, i get a piece of meat with almost name and surname, but i know little to nothing about what i run on my pc. You are forbidden to install a TV surveillance camera outside your appartment's door, if it can catch your neighbours moovements too in the pubblic corridor of the block of flats, because it's violation of their privacy, but you 've no idea what your software can communicate to its vendor.

    I want laws. Nothing more, nothing less. Until then, i remain paranoid, because i don't trust the motives or the competence of anyone. We 've seen govs spying on citizens, on other political parties, huge data leaks, breaches. Now imagine what can happen somewhere with no legislation and where the the ex adware champion, teams with the king of security! A world to trust!
     
  25. Eice

    Eice Registered Member

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    Strike one was labeling me as a non-resisting sheep the corporations want. Strike two - this - is implying the reason I don't agree with you is because I'm a masquerading party with vested interests. Let's see if there's a strike three, eh?

    As far as I can determine, you seem to be disappointed over the lack of controls and legislation, rather than anything pertaining directly to this Symantec/Ask agreement. To which I have no further comment. But personally, I think the controls you propose are a good idea as well. Maybe then some overly paranoid people can begin to relax after realizing they're being scared of imaginary bogeymen.
     
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