Norton/Symantec sells out

Discussion in 'other security issues & news' started by Fly, Feb 3, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Posts:
    5,543
    Reading my own posts I sound like the fanatic that I'm so against. Through all that blabbering, I was just kind of angry that products can go from "Heck yes, use it" to "God no, stay away" with such a trivial thing. It isn't the first time it has happened here. We all, including me, are guilty of "fanboy-ism" from time to time, and have had certain experiences that drive us to trust/distrust or recommend or not a product/company.

    Sometimes though, it gets a little out of hand. I'll back up every one of you the moment I see that toolbar in Norton, or any other "surprise" added to any other product, installed without my knowledge or with no option to keep it uninstalled. Even if it is easily removable, yet is installed without telling me, I would place my trust elsewhere. But seeing the situation as it stands at least for the moment, it seems to me foolish to judge them so harshly.
     
  2. sded

    sded Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Posts:
    512
    Location:
    San Diego CA
    Some of these things have funny consequences also. There was an embarrassing flap on the Comodo website last year when Comodo rather covertly sold The Shield Professional (h t t p://www.pcsecurityshield.com/) a license to resell the free Comodo firewall rebranded and repriced, so Comodo could make money off of it. But Comodo defended them and even invited the company to come defend itself there; no issue as far as they were concerned.
    Comodo has now released a Site Inspector to tell people whether URLs are for good or bad sites. Submitted their partner, PCSecurityShield, and it came back "malicious". Does it make any difference that they are (usually) free? Should we all condemn them for just doing business in a way not all of us might not approve? Shouldn't we just ignore it and use (the free version of) Comodo if it suits us? And give Symantec/Norton the same benefit?
     
  3. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Posts:
    2,753
    My problem with Norton, isn't Norton itself. It's the mentality. It's the "everything for profit". Year after year, there is new abuse towards a customer. Software is sector that is like a jungle. Nobody is watching what vendors can or can't do.

    The whole selling point for ask.com is this ""My new friend at IAC tells me it’s quite common and they recommend pre-checking the install option to make sure more users receive the toolbar...."

    Most people, won't even notice it. But , why should they get a 3rd party product when they pay 50 euros to get an antivirus?! They want it prechecked, exactly because most people DON'T read step by step every installation passage or don't even KNOW what "toolbar" is or whether "Ask" is 3rd party software. Ok, it happens to you to get the Ask toolbar with a freeware product, you can say "heck, at least it was free". Have it on paid products too? And none the less, on the most famous AV? Not to mention that many people, get english versions of Norton but their english is horrible and they don't even understand what a "toolbar" is, even if they read it. They just know they bought "Norton AV" , so it's "safe". Why should one have to look over his shoulder when buying a paid and even more a security product? My father doesn't know english at all and even if he knew, he wouldn't read EULA. But i bet he wouldn't expect to buy Norton and find "toolbar , courtesy of Ask" inside.

    And why reward a company that was dealing with adware companies? This money-hunting at all costs is leading nowhere. In the past years, the customers have seen unloaded on their PCs from online activations, to sony rootkits, 3rd party drivers to play a game, nagscreens, adds and now toolbars of companies with sinful past inside paid security products. And every one of these happens, because people don't ever protest. And so, there is an increasing mithridatization on what a company can do for her money. Last but not least, in this forum we heard about online activation, but only on one windows installation, instead of 1 PC. What's next? And each time, it's for the customers' sake too! As the Symantec employee, said, we do it to increase your safety! No kidding! And i thought you did it to make more $!

    Things will go worse, because there is no control and people don't react, thinking it's fine to remain "cool". There's a word for this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridatization

    And if you want something changed before it happens, you have to shout before it becomes reality (aka, before it hits the shelves, in this case).

    I guess Mr. Bill Pytlovany is one of the last "romantics" with today standards. But, when he will retire, probably many people will say goodbye and thanks to his email address. When Symantec's CEO retires, nobody will care or give a damn. More or less like the bank golden boys, who were always after profit, any profit, as long as it was profit. Now they get fired and nobody cries for them. That's the difference between the 2 business models. Pytlovany is thought as a human being, who treated other human beings with principles before business model. Mr. Norton treats people as wallets and figures on a paper.
     
  4. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Posts:
    2,753
    Probably... As i explained in my previous message to you.

    It's simple. There is no collective judgment. Those that approve something, obviously don't condemn. Those that don't approve, obviously condemn.

    There is no "we". There is you, me , he , she. Don't expect global absolution or global condemnation. I am not here to call to all of you to condemn, don't expect the opposite, it won't happen. I do use the free Comodo version and for being free, i must live with it. I can't have great demands for something i didn't pay. If they donate me a car, i won't bitch to them for not having good brakes. Because it was a DONATION. If i PAY for a car, i WILL have demands for PERFECTION. Because i PAID.

    Symantec isn't freeware. So, i can't put him in the same way as Comodo. They are paid to provide another level of product/service. Otherwise, if Norton wants to contain the same toolbars as Comodo and be judged like Comodo, i only see it fair that he also follows Comodo's business model, aka give the product for free, and in exchange put a toolbar.
     
  5. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Posts:
    5,543
    True Fuzz, but Bill doesn't have stockholders or a couple of thousand people to pay every week either. I'm not trying to use that as a sole excuse, but it's likely a factor. Even the "billion dollar" companies are falling like dominoes, just ask the U.S auto industry. If Norton is in a position where this was a "needed" move and not just an advertising one, then I'd be willing to bet the reason is a couple of top people like to vacation a little too much. But if it is indeed simply a marketing move, well, as I said, it's business as usual.

    In the end, it's a checkbox.
     
  6. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Posts:
    2,201
    While we don't know the specifics, a Norton toolbar with the ask engine embedded ? I don't know if you will be able to opt out of THAT, and even if you can, people will just be inclined to trust a Norton toolbar or whatever comes with the Norton/Symantec software. I have some experience with the ask.com toolbar, generally it will be included in a default installation, quite possibly not even mentioned. How many people will use a customized installation to prevent the installation of such a toolbar ? For many people, a customized install is too complicated.

    Even if one does not have to use a customized installation, the box for the installation is typically ticked, and many (probably most) people won't notice it and/or understand it.

    Let's not forget the history of ask.com and IAC !
     
  7. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Posts:
    2,753
    My friend DW426, you know what's the problem? The problem is that we, in our capitalist system, wildly incontrollable as has proven lately, are accustomed to "forgive" companies because we must show understanding to their needs.

    And who will show understanding to OUR needs? The bank boys were playing with virtual millions and now average Joe is paying the price too! The crisis hits Europe too, it's not just USA. European car companies are firing by the thousands too. But , at the end, the whole crisis, was made exactly, because some people were following the ruthless "profit" model, without thinking the conseguences for the average Joe, for their own credit markets etc. I wish to Norton, though, that unlike their banks, they actually think on what they do. Because the bankers got overstretched, in order to compete with the others too. And at the end, they collapsed, trying to beat the other one. 50 euros today and in the next years, are a lot of money. If people start hearing about toolbars, maybe it won't prove to be a wise move for Norton. Because, 50 euros, in the economic crisis and with a toolbar, while you can find other avs, cheaper and without toolbar, well, may turn as a boomerang. I for one, am going to warn everyone i know about the incoming Ask search, explaining what it was some years ago and why Norton puts it. Then it's up to them to decide what to do.

    The other day i was looking a documentary with some farmers, that their economic consultant had "advised" then to invest to Leehman Brothers part of their money and got ruined. Who will cry for them?

    Personally, i am tired of having always the customer pay the price in order to save mr. Corporate. Streets in Europe are seeing unemployed increasing. Beggars have multiplied. And why? Because some bright boys, were playing with virtual money they didn't really have in stockmarkets and superstretching loans that the bank couldn't really afford. If Mr. Norton can't survive in another way, i am sorry for him, but i won't cry! I mean, if Bill survives, minor AVs survive, and Norton needs a toolbar to survive, well, maybe someone has been playing with Norton's budget like the bank boys were.

    After this economic crisis is over, one thing will change. IF average Joe shouts about it. That the state won't let anylonger the market run on its own, with no control.

    And, i hope one day, someone will actually control, what software can or cannot do.

    I mean, i 've had enough of the "Save private Corporate". I am not going to be "understanding" just because they are in need. Most probably every other security vendor is in bigger need than Norton, but haven't resorted to that yet. Goverments all over Europe are pouring money to "save the banks". Who's gonna save those that beg on the streets?

    They wanted free market and competition and doing whatever they wanted? And now they 're in for a rough ride? They wanted it this way! And wait until the chinese start knocking our door for good... Because the chinese are the emerging power...

    Anyway, i end here, because this is idealogical for me and it's getting OT.
     
  8. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Posts:
    2,201
    Referring to an earlier post in this thread, and quoting from:

    http://billpstudios.blogspot.com/2008/08/what-wrong-with-toolbars.html


    First:
    'I had just finished Donna's entry, when I saw your update here. Did you notice the insanely long EULA for the Ask Toolbar? Who would download that, if they actually read the EULA? This is my favorite Term:'


    I think that when I installed a new version of Webroot's Spy Sweeper I saw such a very long EULA (I rolled back since then !).

    'The trend to include toolbars (or other, usually unrelated, software) when downloading any software is appalling. It is particularly offensive when the download in question is from a security company.

    I had just finished Donna's entry, when I saw your update here. Did you notice the insanely long EULA for the Ask Toolbar? Who would download that, if they actually read the EULA? This is my favorite Term:

    "5. Security
    The Software is exposed to various security issues, and should be regarded as insecure. By accepting this Agreement, you indicate that you understand and acknowledge that by using the Software you may be subject to various security risks from third parties, including the exposure of data you have downloaded or have offered to share and unauthorized access to or acquisition or corruption of search results or other data organized or maintained on your computer by the software, and that you accept all such risk as solely your risk and responsibility." '


    While I can't vouch for the correctness of this EULA, the Security section basically promotes abuse ! It may not hold up in a court of law (I'm no lawyer), but you basically authorize them to do whatever 'they' want to do with your 'personal' (?) information.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  9. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Posts:
    2,753
    I posted exactly the words of the Symantec employee from their forum. It's what i understood... You can check for yourself.

    I expect it to be in some way configurable and the Symantec employee said about changing engines... Anyway, i believe all this can change, if people tell Symantec what they think about it. I do agree of course, that if it comes as "Norton toolbar", people won't even notice.

    I have seen it too in Comodo's installer and the first time , not knowing it was added, i almost installed it. Fortunately i stopped my finger at the last moment. Because when you are used to a "clean" product, and suddenly changes policy and comes with a "prechecked" option, most likely you will install it. This got me with an adware that was shipped with BSPlayer v.2. I was used to freeware v.1, so when i installed v.2 , i wasn't expecting to have WhenU adware, so i installed it. Since then i am paranoid about EULAS, boxes, etc, i don't trust anything.

    Exactly. Many people don't even speak decent english. Others won't read the EULA, because it's "Norton" so it's "safe". Others, that are elder, don't try to read, because hurts their eyes and so on.

    I certainly don't. And i am disappointed to see them rewarded by a security vendor, because their previous "activity" was profitable and so made money and can "buy you". No way Jose! It's mentality like that, that provoked the bank collapse. If there were more Bill Pytlovanys around, the world wouldn't have made profit so quickly , but the profit would be more real and now people would be jobless. It's the blind "business" that brought this upon us.
     
  10. andyman35

    andyman35 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Posts:
    2,336
    If the concensus out there is the same as here then Symantec have scored a massive own goal with this stunt.:rolleyes: Of course though the OEMs will stick with it regardless so I don't expect they'll lose a great deal of revenue or sleep over it.
     
  11. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Posts:
    5,543
    As this is an ideology issue in many ways, I think we as members of this forum should remember who we serve/help, which is the "average joe". The average joe isn't concerned with such matters, only that the product works, is secure, and doesn't put them at an even greater risk than before. We're here to advise/educate on methods and effectiveness, not ethical issues, they need to decide that for themselves. In this case, ethically there may be concern, but effectiveness is still top concern (should be) and effectiveness has not been damaged by these events.
     
  12. TechOutsider

    TechOutsider Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Posts:
    549
    Hate this trend. Look at Adobe Reader; now it packages Acrobat.com, browser plugins, etc. etc. when all the user wanted was to read PDF files. Same with Foxit; attempts to install an ASK toolbar.

    Look at Java. It gives you a downloader shell, then downloads the program itself to make it diffucult to obtain the installer and reverse enginneer it. It attemps to install an Yahoo toolbar. It adds 3 different browser plugins and a service.

    Yet, we need them both.
     
  13. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Posts:
    5,543

    I WILL agree with Adobe. I use it, but God only knows where all it has left its mark on my system. That truly is a bloat nightmare IMHO. Java, well, yeah, but that's one of the few things we literally have no choice about. Java makes the internet go 'round :(
     
  14. TechOutsider

    TechOutsider Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Posts:
    549
    I've seen plenty of ordinary people with brand new computers, content with all the junk on it. Why? Because the computer works; it has enough resources to wade through all that crap.

    Power users will generally start with a reformat.

    I guess for some people here, its a big deal. For others, it's a minor annoyance or just overlooked.

    And why "ask"? I haven't used "ask" search once since I connected to the Internet.
     
  15. Dregg Heda

    Dregg Heda Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Posts:
    830
    Just one question. Does this toolbar reduce security? If so how? From the Norton employees response it seems that its supposed to increase security. Is that just bullshit? How is the toolbar different from this Norton SafeWeb service that they are offering with any search engine?
     
  16. firzen771

    firzen771 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2007
    Posts:
    4,815
    Location:
    Canada
    its basically like putting an ad into the program
     
  17. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Posts:
    5,543
    In the past, some partners associated with the advertising in the toolbar used Windows exploits to install spyware programs without your knowledge. They say they have severed ties with these companies, and, I trust that. I find it hard to believe Ask would put itself in such a media-frenzy position again, and I also find it hard to believe that the likes of Comodo and Norton, well respected vendors, would put users at that severe a risk.

    This thing can go on for days, but the fact is, it's done, and we each have our choices.
     
  18. Dregg Heda

    Dregg Heda Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Posts:
    830
    So it doesnt actually reduce the effectiveness and security of the product unless the toolbar uses windows exploits to install adware and spyware, something which is unlikely in and off itself right?
     
  19. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Posts:
    5,543
    That's correct, it will not "blow a hole in your security". What CAN happen is that surfing information and other personal data could be given to 3rd parties associated with Ask, but in all honesty, almost every application, security or not, does this in SOME capacity. Some people are uncomfortable with that, but the truth is, even offline activity exposes your personal life to people/companies you may not know about or approve of. That's just the nature of living in a technological world.
     
  20. andyman35

    andyman35 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Posts:
    2,336
    I think that most folks buying a new pc just think all the bundled crapware is quite normal,ignorance is bliss as they say.
     
  21. andyman35

    andyman35 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Posts:
    2,336
  22. andyman35

    andyman35 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Posts:
    2,336
    There was a big discussion about it over on the Comodo forums a while back,it was a disappointing development.Hopefully when 3.8 is released this will be rectified.
     
  23. m00nbl00d

    m00nbl00d Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2009
    Posts:
    6,623
    I hope so, that the final v3.8 takes it out. The beta versions still have it, 100% bundled with COMODO SafeSurf, which is not 100% clear during installation. Users living in ignorance, wouldn't even realize they where installing an alien tool bar to COMODO group. After all, if one installs it and check IE, will see a COMODO tool bar and not Ask.com.

    It also brings no additional security (COMODO SafeSurf), considering the technology based on COMODO Memory Firewall is also included in Defense+. Redundant protection...

    But, let's wait and see for the final closure. I honestly hope they'll lose it.
     
  24. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Posts:
    2,201
    You need Java ?

    Assuming you're on a Windows OS:

    Java is not present on my computer, and it doesn't cause any problems while surfing virtually any website. It may be different with games or any particular category, but I have never felt the need to install Java. I see it as just a security risk. Of course, I allow javaSCRIPT, which is something completely different.

    Btw, about the Adobe Reader: I have removed plugins/BHO(s), removed the entry from the startup list with Hijackthis, and have disabled javascript in the Adobe Acrobat Reader. I think I'm at version 8.x, it's good enough for me and I won't download a newer version unless absolutely necessary.
     
  25. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Posts:
    2,201
    Regarding effectiveness:

    Facilitating the distribution of your information/data on the internet is the opposite of what security software is supposed to do. Thus, it is contrary to effectiveness. They MAY (!) not steal your credit card data, but it's just wrong.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.