Norton/Symantec sells out

Discussion in 'other security issues & news' started by Fly, Feb 3, 2009.

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  1. renegade08

    renegade08 Registered Member

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    That was an shock. :eek:

    Although i don't use any their products these seems so disappointing.
    I was thinking just now to try NAV, but after this i will consider twice.

    Yes, we all bitching when some average company includes toolbar.
    And after these i think that nobody will say anything.

    Just look what happen to KCleaner and Kyle_Katarn.

    KCleaner : easy and automatic System Cleaner

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=217284

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=217284&page=11


    From first good comments from users and great enthusiastic, now everyone is getting away from that product like there is some real-world disease(would not say which, but you can imagine for yourself) there.


    Well they are saying "Diamonds Are Forever".

    For Symantec there is new definition:

    "$$$ Are Forever" (TM)"


    How do you know that he didn't do that already??


    And after that Bill Gates was greedy and MS just sucks ??
     
  2. andyman35

    andyman35 Registered Member

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    Can you name him? Sounds like someone we can trust.
     
  3. LoneWolf

    LoneWolf Registered Member

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  4. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    What can i say! Respect! After reading his blog article, makes me think of Symantec even lower than before. The lowest of the low! The 50 euro per box AV kings saying "yes" and a freeware one man author with a lifetime license version saying "no" to a temptation that for his revenue is much bigger than the one for Symantec. And as he says, that would allow him to retire with no economic worries...

    Some salient points:

    "My new friend at IAC tells me it’s quite common and they recommend pre-checking the install option to make sure more users receive the toolbar....

    ...Unfortunately, a number of people think I’m a really, good guy and I respect their opinion. For the last ten years WinPatrol has had a flawless reputation. I know myself, I really hate companies that install additional software that I didn’t ask for. It’s not only rude, it’s just wrong...

    This may not be the best business decision I’ve ever made but I can live with myself.

    "



    Thank you Bill Pytlovany! :thumb: I 'm glad i got the Plus version last year. People like him should be supported as much as possible.

    When principles, come before money:

    1.jpg

    My hero!
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  5. Rainwalker

    Rainwalker Registered Member

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    Absolutely
     
  6. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    More info:

     
  7. GES/POR

    GES/POR Registered Member

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    Very friendly,helpfull guy that Bill :thumb:
     
  8. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    From Symantec employee in Symantec forum:


    I think this gives the most clear idea to this point on how they intend to use it. It's not going to install the "ask toolbar". It will be the norton Toolbar with the ask engine embedded.


    Well, as he said, longtime users , say them what you think about it. They value your input... They do this, after all, for YOUR $AFETY! To provide you a $AFER enviroment!

    "major search engine"... Then what that makes google? "Huge"?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  9. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    I found a yet older blog entry from Bill's blog. They had tried again to put Ask Toolbar in Winpatrol , last summer:



    http://billpstudios.blogspot.com/2008/08/what-wrong-with-toolbars.html
     
  10. sded

    sded Registered Member

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    Hasn't Comodo been doing the same thing since early last year? Seem to recall a lot of complaints about it when I was using Comodo, and a personal plea from the CEO to use Ask search so Comodo could make $$$ out of it. Seems to be an unfortunate trend among even security companies to make partnerships that diminish customer trust and makes users wonder what else is happening they don't know about. :(
     
  11. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Yes, you must be particularly careful when installing Comodo, because at some point there are 3 pre-checked boxes, one of which is the Ask Toolbar. (I don't remember what the other 2 are). At least Comodo doesn't charge you for the product itself 50 euros. Although, of course, the initial preaching by Melih that they 're not interested in making money from the software, they target corporate dealers with selling certificates, proved to be a little different, didn't it.


    This is Donna's "Installers Hall of Shame" :

    Comodo Firewall Pro - Ask Toolbar (This toolbar is detected as spyware/adware by several vendors)
    Nero Burning Rom - Ask Toolbar (This toolbar is detected as spyware/adware by several vendors)
    Webroot SpySweeper - Ask Toolbar (This toolbar is detected as spyware/adware by several vendors)
    ZoneAlarm - SpyBlocker (Ask Toolbar) (This toolbar is detected as spyware/adware by several vendors)

    http://www.calendarofupdates.com/updates/calendar44514

    Soon to be enriched with Norton.
     
  12. Firecat

    Firecat Registered Member

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    Well, this does make AVG's integration of the toolbar with Yahoo Search seem fairly decent........apart from that, crazy stuff happening around here.......but at least it's still controlled by a checkbox.......:doubt:
     
  13. firzen771

    firzen771 Registered Member

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    yes as said, this isnt a big deal because first of all, Comodo is free unlike Norton which costs a lot, and Comodo needs money to develop and continue offering free products otherwise how can anyone be paid? its not very hard to untick the boxes either, just pay attention. I think the inclusion of 1 toolbar is perfectly fine from Comodo or any other products that are FREE, as long as there's a choice to not install (which there is).
     
  14. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    And yet nobody around here is running towards Comodo with pitchforks and lit torches. Hypocritical I say,come down on me as you wish. ASK itself is a perfectly good search engine, I've used it on and off for years. The toolbar, whatever, get a grip and un-check the damn box. If they force it on you and don't have an option to not install it, THEN I'll pick up my own pitchfork and lit torch, until then, this is another "holier than thou" thread with hero-worship over people who decided they'd rather not be in a situation where they could live comfortably the rest of their lives.

    This is software people, not betrayal by family/friends/world leaders/(insert important person here). What people are failing to realize, is that all of these companies that have been shuttered and developers "disappearing" over the last few months that we have been talking about here, is almost totally due to lack of funds/business model failure. That will CONTINUE to happen! You CANNOT survive forever on a 1 time licensing model or stay free forever, especially if you are a U.S company sitting in the middle of all this economic mess.

    This will eventually happen to Sandboxie too, whether we like it or not, especially as hard as Tzuk works, he'll eventually want some compensation coming his way. DW may be alright since it's a yearly fee, but the rest of these freebies and 1-time payments are going to either find more revenue or have a "Rest in Peace" thread dedicated to it here. The last thing I have to say is this, we are NOT Symantec, we do NOT have shareholders breathing down our neck looking for more $$$, and, unless we go look it up, we do NOT know their financial status.

    You can abandon them over a check-box and lose one of the absolute best products out there that consistently score high in protection, or, you can say "meh, not fond of the toolbar, but I can at least keep it off" and continue to use them. Just don't go around all high and mighty about business decisions YOU don't have to make nor understand.
     
  15. sded

    sded Registered Member

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    Are ethics a function of price? Somehow free software is OK to do things like Ask! toolbars but paid software isn't? I would just uncheck the box and forget about it if I wanted to use either one. But pick on them all together (you have the list) or leave them alone.
     
  16. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    EXACTLY, it's BUSINESS. It's not good business, bad business, evil business, just business. 3rd party advertising is big, big business, and that's essentially what this is. Could Symantec have gone with a different search engine? Yep. But, Ask brought the dough and therefore you got yourself a deal. Saying it sucks and Symantec shouldn't need to is one thing, calling it evil and deciding this one decision makes neither the company or its product no good, is nothing more than stupidity.
     
  17. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    That's because some people expect different service when they pay, vs when they don't pay for something. That's why for example, usually paying customers don't have nag screens,adware, spyware and have customer service support. Because price is a function of quality of service, which in the software case, includes ethics (since the nature of bundled software often has to do with ethics).

    Ask com has a track record of gaining money through cooperation also with adware,spyware. Now she uses this money to buy deals with... security products, ironically the same that used to combat its "old" ways. I wonder what people would say if Gator, after years of adware, decided to make a search engine and find itself inside Norton.

    Anyway, yes, how will poor Norton survive the economic crisis? The 1 year fee isn't enough. The userbase isn't enough. Its market position isn't enough. They got to do something for the safety of the customer!

    Anyway, i think Bill Pytlovany said it all for me...
     
  18. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    You know, the ruthleness of that mindest, is what brought the US banking system on its knees. And of course, this time, there won't be the big crash like in the late 20s, because the economy is globalised and Europe is acting as US' pillow right now, taking part of the explosion. All the "golden boys" of banks, doing "business", with no regard whatsoever for the ordinary people, for the real limits of their own credit system, without asking "where is this going to lead us?", thinking "who cares, we make more money like this, even if its based on a bubble" and at the end... boom!

    Call it whatever you like, each person is free to have his ideas about this and each one is free to express himself as he prefers. This is just business in deed (like you hear in the films), but people one day may grow tired of being seen as nothing but figures on a paper.
     
  19. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Hmm, yes, good 'ol Bill who evidently needs to sell shirts and USB wristbands...maybe to support himself because of the poor 1-time license business model? No, that is not a personal attack on him, I wouldn't do that. I made that comment to show an example of why these business models don't work over the long haul. As for the Gator comment, Spyware Terminator for a LONG time was adware/spyware, but they changed, and people suddenly like them. IMHO, it's a poor product again, but if Gator turned around and became "nice", why wouldn't people try them out?

    There is nothing whatsoever "un-ethical" about a stupid check box, so that argument means nothing. It's another method of revenue, nothing more, nothing less. You don't like it, either leave the product or un-tick the stupid box and get on with your lives instead of raising a fit in a forum.

    Edit: Um, Fuzz, this is hardly comparable to the banking system and economic collapse :)
     
  20. fce

    fce Registered Member

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    just curious....

    will Norton fanatic dump Symantec because of this (ASK.com) sell-out vs. security provide by Norton/Symantec?
     
  21. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    Lol, have you been reading this thread? They're ready to burn Norton at the stake.
     
  22. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    I wonder what you 'd say if it WAS a personal attack. o_O
    At least, i never had to see once his wrist band when i purchased the license. Winpatrol installed fine without me having to pay attention.

    Sure, he is a one-man business, offering a free version and a 1 time plus version. You BET it's difficult business model and he can use any extra income, from shirts, glasses, wristbands, and... even toolbars now that i think about it. But he prefers not to include the toolbar, DESPITE his perilous business model. While Norton's model includes the toolbar. And here's is all the contraddiction.

    This is up to people. It's about trust and "memory". Personally, i wouldn't touch anything that had to do previously with notorious adware. People who do, fine, it's their choice. I know though one thing. If i were to see a product that i pay for, to endorse the "ex enemy", i would certainly abbandon that product. I mean, i hate so much adware (Gator in particular, because it was one of the first i encountered and was infected by it), that the idea of having a paid SECURITY product, in alliance with my ex menace, disgusts me! And i wouldn't try out any such product, simply because its made with "bad money" (coming from their previous activities). I don't use Norton, i am against this in an idealogical fashion. And certainly this news won't attract me towards it.

    It's your opinion.

    Yes, there are many methods of revenue.

    That's what fora are about. To comment and often to disagree. You don't have to agree and like everything in order to post in a forum. Some will raise a fit, some fanboys will come to the rescue, that's how a forum works.

    Why, Norton is susceptible to the economic crisis too, isn't it? That's why he needs the money i presume (it was mentioned previously). Selling T-shirts and wrist bands would be too low for Mr. Yellow, wouldn't it... And, you can never know. All "empires", no matter if software or states, come to a decline, for some reasons. Maybe Norton's decline has already began and is reacting in the wrong manner in an attempt to stop it. I remember, when there was practically only Norton and McAfee out there... Now there are avs from every corner.
     
  23. dw426

    dw426 Registered Member

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    The way you stated the comparison of the banking system made it look like Symantec, by including the toolbar, was going to be responsible for some other kind of meltdown that left users in the dust or screwed users over by "evil" behavior. What Symantec has done is in no way shape or form the same as the banking/corporate world. Though reading this thread it might get in your head that that is the case.

    And no, I didn't attack Bill or say he was stupid for selling his other merchandise, it was an example of how a poor business model can turn out. I've really said all I need to in this thread. For those who wish to see things how they are and realize this toolbar issue is extremely trivial and affects nothing, please, continue using this fine product. It took them years to finally get to a point where the bloatware was gone and the resource usage minimal, all the while staying a very secure product.

    For those who wish to use yet another checkbox as a way to bash a formerly respected product, go for it. But don't start telling new users in here that Norton sucks and isn't trustworthy because you were too damn lazy to untick a box, and too fanatical about so called principles to understand that it's business,and it doesn't make one bit of difference in the effectiveness of the product. Because if you do, I will be ashamed to call myself a Wilders member.
     
  24. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Yes, i didn't mean that Norton will make the whole AV industry collapse. But maybe won't help itself in the long run either, just like investing in "bubble money" didn't help in the long run the bank golden boys. Also, ironically, both banks and security vendors, deal much of their business, based on trust. Trust and reputation. And personally i don't think that this is helping Norton's reputation. Maybe the average Joe won't ever know and they 'll get away with it. But some will know. Following Macchiavelian tactics of "the purpose justify the means", is often profitable. But sometimes, just sometimes, as some bank golden boys learnt, karma is a bitch and bites back.

    This is and was always the problem between people. Business vs principle. Like Frederick Forsyth says in the "Dogs of War", there are two type of people: "Those that you can buy, and those that you can't, you can crush". Now the 2 categories of people, never really understood each other... Mr. Norton is in the 1st category. Mr. Bill, is in the second category. Fortunately, he isn't crushed, he has to resort to shirts for a living. But he isn't one of those you can buy. And for some people, he is the one to admire and support.

    I think the trustworthiness of every person or product for what matters, is up to anyone to judge, after he is informed. Norton doesn't suck as a product. But for me, their policy on this matter is deeply disappointing. And as such, i would never buy it. That's all.
     
  25. TechOutsider

    TechOutsider Registered Member

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    Better be one of those optional components you can install or one of those that you can disable/uninstall afterwards.
     
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