My old XP box is close to death; the problem may be with the power supply. Options?

Discussion in 'hardware' started by Fly, May 13, 2017.

  1. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    @mirimir,

    I am not sure ... since the device is off, was custom made and I dont have the original invoice at hand. If possible, I think it was an AMD Athlon XP 2800+. Bought it in 2004. There is a small local shop, closed today but I may ask. I´m really not good with electronics.

    As a side note, I cannot imagine myself using Windows 10 on any computer that I own. The one I´m using now is from 2010, also a little outdated. Without making a whole discussion topic of this, if I were to switch to a new OS (is Windows 7 still available ?, it looks like it but I haven´t verified that) it seems like I have the option of switching to either Apple or Linux. Safe, secure, privacy friendly (including the behavior of the vendor) and without a steep learning curve ... I´ve used a MAC a few times and it was allright for regular internet use, but the interface was very different. Personally I don´t like the ´big screen´ (strong visual) approach of Apple. MS-DOS was easy, you only had to learn a few hundred (?) commands tops. I´ve never used Unix. If anyone has any comments/suggestions ... I feel a little naked with only one working computer at home ;) I don´t even own a smartphone.
     
  2. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

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    If that's the CPU, it's single-core, and not so fast. I'd say that the box isn't worth much effort.
     
  3. T-RHex

    T-RHex Registered Member

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    It's likely one of three things: the power supply (PSU), the power switch, or the motherboard. You won't know until you try another power switch and/or supply (one at a time, of course). Replacing the switch should be cheap and easy, if you can find one that will work (the trick mentioned above with using the reset button was a good idea).

    Replacing the power supply at a shop shouldn't be more than 0.5 hour and the cost of the PSU. But getting an old ATX formfactor supply may be the hard part. Look for a used-parts store, or buy secondhand online. Keep in mind you don't know how the used PSU has been used (or the environment it was used in) so look for some kind of warranty or guarantee if possible (not long-term but you'd hate to buy one and find out it doesn't work or the bearings are shot). Replacing it is straightforward as others have mentioned, as all the cables are keyed.

    Static can be a problem, but use common sense: ground yourself (touch grounded metal) first to discharge static, don't shuffle your feet around while working in the computer (if standing on carpet), and don't stick your fingers in places you shouldn't (like the motherboard, memory, or processor). Also, ground yourself *before* unplugging the PC -- once the PC is unplugged it is no longer grounded. You need a separate grounding source that you can touch without moving, like a lamp with a metal stand, or even the screws holding a wall light-switch plate in place. Also, many computer cases are not conductive, unfortunately, as at some point in the past they switched to cheaper build materials with more plastic and less metal (and/or with plastic coatings).

    Don't bother trying to measure voltage from the PSU; they have to be under load in order to get a reading. And good voltage doesn't mean consistent under load -- computers draw the most when starting up; if your computer was hard to start but would run fine when it did start, that could also be due to a bad PSU.

    Vacuums can deliver static charges. Instead of vacuuming the inside of a PC, it should be blown out with a can of compressed air (do it either outside or have a vacuum running outside of the case). Of course PSUs are tricky as you don't want to blow into the PSU, but those can be vacuumed out through the fan grills. Not sure why someone said to stick a pencil in it, the fan should be able to rotate freely otherwise this would indicate a bearing problem which would lead to a heat problem.

    Good luck -- I have a couple of old XP PCs that have been refurbished over the years with new PSUs, fans, drive controllers, and more. I don't use them much but on occasion for specific purposes like video transfer or even playing CDs (using a DOS-based cd-player, no internet threats there!). Mostly, though, they provide for good moments of nostalgia... :D
     
  4. boredog

    boredog Registered Member

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    Bad ram can cause it too but even my new dell will not boot up if a key is stuck down. A while back I had that issue. My shift key was stuck down and it took me a bit to notice it. New key board now.;)
     
  5. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    This is not a conclusive test. For one, when you disconnect the supply from the motherboard, there's no load on the supply. So voltages may show fine, but as soon as you put a realistic load on the supply, the voltages may fall way out of acceptable ±5% tolerances. So it is best to leave the motherboard and drive connectors attached, then measure from a spare power connector with the computer performing various intensive tasks. But you need to make sure you are testing the same rail as the load - something that may not be easy to tell with multi-rail supplies.

    Also, most multimeters cannot test for ripple and other anomalies that affect computer stability. Proper testing can only be done by a qualified technician using an oscilloscope or power supply analyzer - sophisticated (and expensive) electronic test equipment requiring special training to operate, and a basic knowledge of electronics theory to understand the results. Therefore, conclusively testing a power supply is done in properly equipped electronics repair facilities.

    That means for most users, swapping in a known good supply is their only option. Fortunately, it is a very effective method.

    Ignoring the warnings about XP systems connected to the Internet is like ignoring warnings to look both ways before crossing the street. Failing to do either is simply being ignorant of the very real and potentially disastrous dangers. Note the recent wannacry ransomware that hit (and is currently hitting) over 90 countries world wide is particularly hitting and being spread by XP systems! It even prompted Microsoft to release a patch for XP even though support for XP terminated years ago.

    Will WannaCry malware finally get everyone to leave Windows XP - that’s certainly something that needs to happen.

    If You Still Use Windows XP, Prepare For The Worst.


    Note that many PoS systems are on closed networks - on "intranets" with no direct links to the Internet.

    This is very true and you are wise to be concerned. I generally recommend taking computers outside and blasting them out with compressed air. Most professionals use an air compressor properly equipped with a suitable inline moisture and particulate filter. Just make sure you use a wooden Popsicle or glue stick to hold the fans stationary while blasting to avoid overspinning the bearings.

    That said, if it is pouring down rain outside, I use a vacuum cleaner. The trick is to wrap your hand around the nozzle end, extend a finger out and plant that finger on bare metal of the case interior to discharge and prevent build-up of static. Then I use a soft "natural" bristle brush to stir the dust towards the vacuum nozzle. I note many brushes use synthetic bristles which often are very good at generating static.
     
  6. MisterB

    MisterB Registered Member

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    I'm aware of loading and ripple and should have recommended testing voltages both connected and disconnected. I just recommended the first step which will quickly determine if the power supply is totally bad. If the voltages read good, further testing can be done.

    As far as the Xp sermons, they are just a distraction to those of us who, for whatever reason, wish to continue using it. This thread is about hardware, not the OS being used.
     
  7. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    A distraction? :( Interesting how you use "sermon" to describe it since a sermon is also "a talk on a moral subject". It would not be a problem if you were only putting yourself at risk. But connecting a XP system to the Internet puts others at risk. I'm not asking you to believe me. I already included 2 links to 2 reputable sources.

    Here's another from ZD-Net (their bold large text): Upgrade already! If you're still using Windows XP, you're a menace to society - And if you're an IT pro with decision-making capacity in an organization that continues to use XP, you should be fired.

    You refusing to listen and upgrade is one thing. But advising others to "Ignore the sermons about Xp not being safe on the Internet" is just being irresponsible as a tech adviser on forums because you don't personally know those reading and you have no clue the technical skillsets or the security awareness of those reading.

    FTR, nobody said to ditch the computer because it was running XP. There are many options including upgrading the OS. If the computer does not support a newer version of Windows, there's always Linux. Or you can do what I did and suggested and that is, don't connect it to the Internet. I turned my perfectly good XP into a NAS and blocked Internet access to it in my router until my budget allowed suitable hardware upgrades.
     
  8. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    Mister B, the thread title mentions XP so I took that to mean it has got something to do with it.

    In the bigger picture I could sure get into a rant how this IS a moral subject. Suffice it to say there are people who are sick of getting this "get rid of XP" shoved down their necks. The needed qualification for such a stand has already happened in this thread.... 3 times in fact which you left out.

    FTR Bill, The OP already said:
    "It is and was not a danger to the internet, I knew how to handle it "

    MisterB said (and which I totally agree with):

    "It is still widely used online and if you are careful and cautious and know what you are doing it is safe enough"

    and I said:
    "so long as you follow some precautions,"

    Bill I get benefit out of reading your posts and I'll certainly be taking on board about the nozzle trick.... but NOT on XP when there's been qualifying statements made.

    EDIT: Since it's been mentioned about the latest fracas with this ransom-ware thing, I have downloaded MS's patch for XP, but I'm wary of installing it. Who knows what that could have in it - after all if MS can remotely change your settings, by default send all sorts of telemetry back home, then nothing would surprise me. I know a bit more now than when I first got XP years ago. Instead I'm going to rely on Firewall settings (blocking the ports they say), Common sense (not to be clickhappy), Use Sandboxie, and backup backup BACKUP.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  9. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    The problem, is, because Microsoft no longer supports XP (and this emergency patch was certainly rare and extraordinary) there is no way of knowing if a security solution is capable of defending against any attack that targets a particular unpatched vulnerability - especially a zero day vulnerability. So even if you do know what you are doing, it may not matter.

    If you drive an outdated car on the freeway, it does not matter how good a driver you are or how defensively you drive. If a drunk, texting driver, or bad guy "targets" you, you and worse, your passengers and other drivers nearby are also put in jeopardy. Again, if you only put yourself at risk, that would be one thing. But XP is a threat to others.
    The fact it is still widely used is no excuse to keep using it. Because the other guy does it has been been sound rational.

    And to tell people they can ignore the advice of virtually EVERY security expert around the around the world and then fail to justify those claims by showing which precautions are needed or how to follow them, that's just irresponsible.:(

    Can you find even one 2017 article from any reputable recognized security expert who (1) says it is okay to keep XP connected to the Internet and then (2) shows which precautions to take to keep XP (and your fellow Internet users) safe? I mean there are dozens if not 100s of recognized experts who say it is time to let XP go. Are you saying you and Mister X are right and "every one" else is wrong? Really?

    Qualifying statements? Where? Qualifying statements are those that have been presented that substantiate claims with documented supporting evidence. Where's your supporting evidence? I provided links to 3 different sources. Where's your evidence that qualifies and justifies keeping XP systems connected to Internet?

    Do not be blinded by your own desires. NOBODY enjoys retiring something before it dies. NO DOUBT, XP was a great OS. But XP was created 16 years ago! Time to let it go. And again, I did not say "ditch the hardware". I said let XP go.
     
  10. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    What I said was enough. This thread has XP mentioned in its title and I defended it to the proportionate degree I thought necessary in the context of this thread and not to hijack it. The fact that cautions were given should be enough to give anyone a heads-up to look into it further if they're interested - that's what search engines are for, that's what forums are for and that's what individual threads are for. XP is still a great OS IF you take precautions.

    Also I didn't high light "widely used" for a reason so don't take what I said out of context.
     
  11. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Oh wow! True colors come out. Time to invest in tin for the tin foil hat wearers. :rolleyes:

    You are worried about Microsoft? OMG! You really don't have a clue, do you? I have some really nice swamp land in Florida!

    Remotely change your settings? Hogwash!

    Telemetry? Do you know what telemetry is? No, Microsoft is NOT spying on us. Contrary to what you seem to believe, Microsoft is NOT trying to steal your identity, steal your passwords, hack into your bank account, corrupt your drives, or harvest your contacts information.

    You sign in with an anonymous username. If you connect via Ethernet, Microsoft does not even know your physical location. The closest they know of your physical location is your PoP (point of presence), the point where your ISP connects your service to the Internet backbone. In my case, that is 10 miles away in the next town over.

    You need to be worried about your ISP. They know all your surfing habits, they know your physical address, your real name, date of birth, phone number, credit bureau information and your billing information.

    And you need to especially be worried about your cell phone carrier. They know everything your ISP knows, but they also know who you have texted and emailed, and they know where you are standing within a few meters/yards including the aisle and store you are standing in. They know where you have been, and the direction you are heading and how fast you are traveling. Microsoft knows nothing of that, nor do they care.

    And you are worried about Microsoft? :confused: That's sad. If you are so paranoid of Microsoft that is even more reason to dump XP and go with Linux, or at least disconnect your XP systems from the Internet.

    Except when others repeatedly advise to ignore those warnings or choose not to heed those warnings without any "qualifications" or supporting evidence.


    Edit comment: Fixed typo.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  12. Reality

    Reality Registered Member

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    LOL Bill, simmer down you might do yourself some damage. My colors are not finally coming out here. Wilders is primarily a security and privacy forum, something that seems to be lost on you. Again, I'm not going to hi-jack this thread, much less to argue with the willfully blind..
     
  13. stapp

    stapp Global Moderator

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    @Reality
    Just for info.
    I used the MS patch on an old XP machine I have for doing certain things on.
    No issues at all. A really small patch, reboot required, and it changed none of my Win Update settings (all turned off)
    This XP machine also runs Sandboxie.
     
  14. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    You have no clue or idea if the cpu (in that old system) has the necessary instruction set extensions. Most likely it does not.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  15. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    Yeh man like what's gonna happen, the innernet gonna'splode er sumpin?

    I have several XP machines as my mainline rigs and I have no intention of ever replacing them if I can avoid it. I even have parts stockpiled for the future. And if you know what you're doing you'll be just fine.
     
  16. NormanF

    NormanF Registered Member

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    It won't run every feature of Windows 10, for which you need more advanced hardware.

    An OS should be able to get basic computing tasks done.

    When an OS drops support for older hardware, its time to move on.
     
  17. ghodgson

    ghodgson Registered Member

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    Likewise - I dual boot Win 7 64 bit and XP (not used often) as I run XP mode from within 7 - just to run Legacy progs on a 32 bit system that won't run on 64 bit and the developer of said prog has no plans to upgrade.
    I installed MS's XP patch on both without any issues at all.
     
  18. roger_m

    roger_m Registered Member

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    Actually that is not the case. If the CPU is not compatible with Windows 10, then it will not be able to be installed. If it is compatible, if will install and evetything should work, as long there are video drivers available. However, depending on the speed of the CPU and how much RAM is installed, it may run slowly.
     
  19. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    This is true, but it is up to the program developers for the software performing those tasks to ensure that software is compatible with the OS. It is NOT up to the OS to ensure compatibility with every program ever developed.

    Same with hardware. It is up to the hardware maker to ensure there are compatible drivers for the OS. The OS makers publish the compatibility specs (developed together with the hardware standards organizations, BTW, like IEEE, USB, ATX, SATA, etc.) well in advance of the release of the OS. If the hardware maker refuses to make their "legacy" hardware compatible with modern technologies, that is not the OS maker's fault.

    Let's not forget it is the hardware industries who primarily drive the advancements in computer technologies. Microsoft did not invent SATA. Microsoft did not invent M.2. Microsoft did not invent 6, 8, and 12 core processors. Microsoft did not invent DDR4 RAM.

    You are looking at this backwards. :( Operating systems do not "drop" support. The hardware makers do by not providing current drivers. There is no return on their investments to develop those drivers. Instead, they want you to buy current hardware. If your antique motherboard's chipset maker does not provide drivers for today's current operating systems, that's not the operating system's fault.

    It is the OS's job to support current and, as much as possible, future hardware technologies - not those of the past.

    Don't forget the lessons of the past! Why did XP become a security problem in the first place? There are many reasons, not least of which was the explosion in the use of broadband to the home. But another big reason was Microsoft kowtowed to the demands of the big corporations who insisted XP support all their insecure legacy DOS and W95/98/SE era hardware and software so they would not have to go through the expensive retooling and reprogramming process again - as they did going from CP/M to DOS and to W95/98/SE.

    At the same time, the security software industry whined and cried to Congress and the EU about Microsoft's desire to put AV code in XP, exclaiming "monopoly" and that it was their job to rid the world of malware. Congress and the EU agreed and ordered MS to remove any AV code and we see what happened there.

    Microsoft bowed to the demands of their corporate user-base and built-in legacy support, and removed the AV code and what happened? The AV industry failed miserably, users failed to keep their systems current, Internet use exploded, and legacy hardware software became exposed to the bad guys. And the bad guys pounced!

    But who got blamed? The AV industry for failing to do their job? Nope? Users for failing to update and use common sense when clicking? Nope? Did the bad guys perpetrating the offenses get blamed? Nope - not even them. Microsoft got blamed - relentlessly.

    This is exactly why, starting with W7, Microsoft made the correct business decision to put security ahead of legacy support. They would much rather be blamed for a lack of legacy support than for security issues they did not cause. And I don't blame them.

    On me? o_O Security trumps privacy every time - and it is clear it is not me that fact is being lost on. Again, there is a HUGE difference between security and privacy which you continue to ignore, or it just goes right over your head. :(

    It is "Wilders Security" Forums, not "Wilders Security and Privacy" Forum and once again, Microsoft is not trying to jeopardize your security like the folks targeting your XP system are. In fact, I point out that Windows 10 users are not subject to this WannaCry ransomware - unless users changed the defaults. Neither are W7 and W8.

    Do you not see the irony of this when looking at your own username? :rolleyes: Don't take my word on it! Do your own home work and see the "reality" by learning what the experts are saying and "all" agree on.
     
  20. Fly

    Fly Registered Member

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    Thanks for the on topic suggestions.

    As for this link: http://www.zdnet.com/article/if-you...e_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=30043325 the sheer arrogance !
    Running Windows XP may not be the safest thing to do, but it´s all about how you handle it. It´s just an OS !

    I haven´t had a real infection since before 2010 ! At one time, I used programs like Spyware Doctor, Spy Sweeper, Counterspy ... they usually found something ! But a brain, proper security software/setup, imaging setup will go a long way. Last time an Avira suite´s real time protection found ´something´ was around 2011 or 2012.

    Windows 7 is OK. Windows 10 ... no.

    ´Security trumps privacy every time´ Really ? Sometimes you have no security without privacy.

    ´Do your own home work and see the "reality" by learning what the experts are saying and "all" agree on.´ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality Consensus reality ? Is truth determined by vote ?
     
  21. NormanF

    NormanF Registered Member

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    Windows 7 has three years of extended support left.

    After 2020, you can continue to run it but it won't receive security updates from Microsoft.
     
  22. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    :(

    Just an OS? If only it were that simple. If it was that simple, why did WannaCry affect 100s of 1000s of computers (mostly XP) in over 150 countries? Are you just that much smarter than the badguys and all those other XP users?

    It's about reality, not individual perceptions or their opinions or how they vote. I ask again, show us one recognized expert or security firm who reports keeping XP is fine.

    And when you advise others to "ignore the sermons about connecting to the Internet with XP", do you just leave it at that as was done here? Or do you "teach" those people specifically what they need to do - to include the necessary consistent self discipline needed to avoid every time clicking on extremely realistic, but malicious links?

    :( Hardly the point. There is still a difference between security and privacy. Once again, when it comes to privacy, Microsoft does not know and is NOT trying to learn your real name, your home address, your billing information, your SSN or Insurance Number, your contacts' information, or your passwords. Nor is Microsoft trying to corrupt your hard drive or take remote control over your computer to distribute malware or spam. Those are all security issues.

    Google and Amazon know more personal information about us than Microsoft - where's the privacy concerns with them?

    Really? You really going to use that to justify your reasoning? If Avira found something, that means that something got by you and your security in the first place. That's not a good thing. And guess what, Avira does not support XP!!!!

    Last time, XP was a great OS. So was DOS and Win98SE. But they are all generations old and can no longer keep up with times - whether you choose to believe it or not.
     
  23. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    XP is still a great OS, otherwise I wouldn't be using it. For some tasks it can't be beat. For contemporary tasks and social media and bling-bling stuff, you'll need something more current.
     
  24. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Like what?
     
  25. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    Classic computer interfacing and file curation/management.
     
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