The problem is a lack of empirical evidence and/or, a lack of reputation for those people making those claims. The only way to prove that claim is to have two identical batteries (dozens or more would be better since no 2 batteries are truly identical) in identical laptops, operated in identical environments used in identical ways for the entire life of the batteries. I highly doubt that sort of testing is happening. I, by no means, am a battery expert. But as seen via the link in my signature, have some experience with electronics hardware. The problem, IMO, is not about charging a Li-ion (or any other chemistry type) battery to 100%. It is (as seen in the @bellgamin link), "keeping" the battery charged at 100% "all the time". While I accept that is probably true, that is an unlikely "real-world" scenario. Even if you keep the charger plugged in 24/7, including while you are using the device, that does not mean the charger is keeping the battery topped off 24/7. My Samsung cell phone has that 85% feature. I ensured it was disabled (which it is by default). Why? Because battery run time is important to me. So when I am venturing out, especially in sub-freezing weather as we get here often, I don't want the battery to die early because it was not allowed to fully charge. It also has cordless charging so just picking it up starts the discharge process. For my MSI laptop, the userguide says (my bold underline added to keypoints), No where in the manual does it mention anything avoiding 100% charging. In fact, instructing users to connect charger "whenever possible" - without mentioning any caveats or exceptions, that suggests leaving it plugged in 24/7 is perfectly fine - at least for 30 days straight.
As some laptop vendors suggest that setting a battery charge threshold would help improve battery longevity, and bellgamin mentioned to be interested in laptop battery management for a Linux system, I had a look at what battery management would be available for Linux, ideally a UI application. On some HP laptops, in BIOS, one can enable or disable the Adaptive Battery Optimizer to allow the system to optimize the battery pack for longevity. According to HP, this feature is currently only available for its business series notebooks. [1] On some other laptops, charge thresholds may be set using TLP (command line), or TLPUI (user interface for TLP). In order to use TLPUI, make sure TLP is installed first. https://linrunner.de/tlp/ https://github.com/d4nj1/TLPUI The level of battery care support as well as battery names and allowed charge threshold values depend on laptop vendor or brand, Linux kernel version and TLP version. If the hardware does not have the capability or no suitable driver exists, then TLP battery care cannot control it. https://linrunner.de/tlp/settings/battery.html https://linrunner.de/tlp/settings/bc-vendors.html https://linrunner.de/tlp/faq/battery.html Unfortunately, it looks like there is no support for bellgamin's HP 17-cn0097nr. Another article about how to set charge thresholds for some laptops using TLP or TLPUI: https://www.linuxuprising.com/2021/11/how-to-set-charge-thresholds-for-some.html
@bellgamin I've enjoyed the posts of your journey towards linux. I'm planning on doing the same first for my tablet, then my laptop, so it's been very educational. As for the battery, it's not just about recharge cycles. The enemy of batteries of all kinds is heat, which causes expansion in the cells. Keeping it plugged in all the time basically bakes the battery; keeping it charged to 100% leaves less room for expansion so accelerates the degredation. (at least, that's my understanding) I went for 7 years on my Thinkpad w530 before replacing the battery (and I had been letting it drop to 60% and charging it to 100%); it still worked but I think it was down to 1/3 its original capacity. Although I presume today's batteries are more resilient, they're subject to the same factors. I really only use the battery to move my laptop between rooms (like Raza), but it did degrade. I ran it on battery maybe a half dozen times, but with the quad proc, 32GB RAM, and 3 SSDs, I could only get about 2 hours from a full charge! Since I don't really use it off power, I don't need it at 100% all the time so I figure I may as well play it safe and now I keep it between 50 and 80%. I found out that in Windows I could use Lenovo's app to set the battery threshold but it appears to write it to the BIOS, so I'm hoping that it will stay set at 50/80 when I move to linux.
This isn’t small talk or hearsay, batteries will last longer if they are not charged to 100%. Some people say their battery hasn’t suffered through maximum charging, the point is their battery would probably be in even better conditions if it had been under charged. I’m not an engineer, but I drive a 10 years old hybrid car, and since it was purchased the electric motor battery is never allowed to charge beyond 80% whether I like it or not. My 10 years old Samsung laptop came with a program to electively choose to limit the charge to 80%, to prolong battery life. The new Dell laptop same story, these are not bells and whistles to attract more customers, these are engineering facts. Changing an inner encased battery would be expensive, not to mention the fact that most people would probably have to pay for a technician to do it. In 2007 I bought a 17” Asus laptop, after only 3 months the battery would last less than 1 hour…
My problem with the above is this. It makes no sense to allow a battery to charge to 100% if that harms the battery. Almost all Li-Ion batteries used in these "smart" devices (laptops, cell phone, tablets, etc.) have some intelligent circuitry already built in to prevent over-charging and over-heating - and that is definitely good. And I know we have all heard the horror stories of Li-Ion batteries spontaneously exploding and catching fire. No doubt, those stories are 100% true. But those are the exceptions. If you believe in planned obsolescence, then okay. I don't - at least not with reputable companies that realize garnering repeat business is good business. If allowing a battery to charge above 80% is truly harmful, then IMO, these device makers should restrict charging above that by default, then post runtime specs based on 80% maximum charges. Alternatively, they should include higher capacity batteries that allow meeting those published runtime specs. My point is, IF allowing a battery to charge above 80% is truly harmful, why not just program that intelligent circuitry to shut down charging at 80% instead of 100% by default? The answer is simple - it is not harmful to charge to 100%. BEFORE you bulk at that, read on. FTR - the userguide for my MSI MS-1551 laptop mentions nothing about limiting charge rates. Evidence shows the problem is not charging the battery to 100%. It is charging the battery to 100% AND storing it at that level. See Lithium-Ion Battery Care Guide and note where it says (my bold underline added), So, if your device does not have smart charging, it is perfectly safe to charge your phone, notebook, EV to 100% first thing in the morning, for example, then when charged, start using the device. Otherwise, RTFM.
@Bill_Bright -- Hi Bill. Didst thou read the Microsoft article that I linked in a prior comment -- the one about battery life protection on Win11? If so, I would appreciate your comments. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @Stupendous Man & @T-RHex & @Osaban & @Bill_Bright -- Your comments are greatly appreciated.
I did read it. And I will remind you that Microsoft is not a battery maker. Also, please note that MS article does "not" say it "will" extend battery life. It says things like "can", "may" and "may not" and "helps". That article also says, That is 100% true! It is also 100% true of every battery type. Beyond that, not sure what you want me to say. It clearly reiterates what I have been saying. The issue involves "keeping" the battery fully charged at 100% all the time - as noted in the very first paragraph. It also says every maker does it their own way. So RTFM, or as MS says, visit your device maker's website. And it says, That clearly suggests you are not going to kill your battery if you charge it all the way. I think of students who use their laptop on battery all day long. If that were me, I sure would want a full charge. There are many other jobs and activities that routinely require hours of continuous mobile capability. I am not saying don't use Smart charging or whatever your device calls the features - if it even does. I am saying if you want to, fine. If you don't that's fine too. And I am saying don't assume you must use it or else your battery is going to die soon. Odds are it will provide many years of quality services. I will add this - I have to wonder, if folks leave their notebooks plugged into 24/7, including the times they are using the computer, then maybe they didn't need a mobile computer after all, and should have gone with a PC or AiO. So again, not sure what you want me to say. I know many people who leave their laptops plugged in 24/7 for days on end. I did it almost continuously with my Toshiba for over 12 years. It never died. I only replaced it because the very old i3 system, with the no-longer-supported W7 OS, could not be upgraded to W10. I keep my 2 year old MSI plugged in 24/7 and according the my manual, I only need to discharge it once a month - to keep the battery status monitoring circuit calibrated to the battery. There is nothing in my manual about extending battery life by limiting the charge. Are those anecdotal examples? But so are those who claim their battery died at 4 years because they left it plugged in 24/7. There is no way to prove that is why it died when it did. I will also note the life of rechargeable batteries "may" also be shortened "if" they frequently deal with deep discharge/charge cycles and heavy workloads. This is exactly why some UPS users have to replace their SLA batteries every 2 years while the same batteries in other, identical UPS need to be replaced every 5 years. Bottom line, YMMV. Edit comment: fixed critical typo by adding a missing "not" in first paragraph.
Thanks for the comments Bill. Live long & prosper. As to "...when you might want to turn off Smart charging" -- I quoted that part of the MS article in the comment where I linked to the MS article. MS is stating a few exceptions to MS's implicit rule, and that implicit rule is: "turn ON smart charging." (Every rule has an exception, and vice versa, wot? ) These phrases are surely the fruit of MS's lawyers, hard at work. Such caveats are essential nowadays, in sue-happy USA. I'm certain that MS has great confidence in the value of their free Smart Charging app, else they would not have released it. If I were using Win11, I would most certainly leave this app activated. Why ever not?
"Peace and long life" to you! No doubt. Well, if you leave your charger plugged in all the time, then for you, it would make sense to keep the feature enabled, if for no other reason than peace of mind - ASSUMING your hardware supports it. But if you unplug your laptop and run it on battery for several hours on end, you may want a full charge for maximum run time. This is especially true today when so many laptops come with batteries that are NOT user replaceable. Years ago I had a Dell and a spare battery I could pop in quickly. But run times were a lot shorter then and I really hated lugging around that extra weight. I have W11 on my MSI laptop. That feature is not found in my W11 settings. I am going to assume that is because this particular MSI laptop came from the factory as Windows 11 "Ready" but with W10 installed. I would hope all newer laptops support the feature.
Any charging is harmful to battery. You are using strawman here in this thread. People were not discussing overcharging aka charging above a upper level of design voltage range which may immediately damage battery. People are just discussing best ways to prolong battery lifespan*. That's it. *Some advices were better or more achievable than others of course. PS I charged and kept battery charged to 100% for years. It was fine for it. Battery is still functional.
Huh? No it isn't. Got a link to substantiate that claim? Surely then, every time you run your car, by your claim that would be harmful to the battery. Again, huh? I am doing nothing of the sort. You quoted me then suggested I was talking about "over" charging. Nothing I said suggested anything of the sort! In fact, I said above,
