Is this virtuaslization and if so (or not) is it any good

Discussion in 'sandboxing & virtualization' started by bgoodman4, Nov 2, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
  2. Meriadoc

    Meriadoc Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Posts:
    2,642
    Location:
    Cymru
    They describe it as software virtualization but the original os is cloned and so on.
     
  3. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Thanks for the reply but could you clarify what that means a bit please. For one thing do I need to pay for Windows licences for each machine and for another, given that the different machines (evidently) reside on the C: drive does this indicate a possible shortcoming or a benefit.

    I have been interested in virtualization for some time now but have not gotten around to trying it yet. A week or so I got as far as installing VBox portable to the point where it asked me to install Windows. I did not have my Windows CD handy so I cancelled the operation. I would like as simple a solution as possible to start and this one sounds real simple but if its going to be problematic I would rather pass and go with VBox or some such at some point in the future.
     
  4. wat0114

    wat0114 Guest

    Unless someone seeing this thread has used it before, it's tough to garner opinions. What bothers me just viewing the web page (never used this product) is this ridiculous doomsday-like scare tactic:

    Honestly, how many people run out and buy a new computer and spend the rest of their lives never trying new applications because it crashes? :rolleyes:
     
  5. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Well yes, that certainly is aggressive marketing. Still, that does not nec make the program junk. I will have to do some searching for (hopefully) unbiased reviews of the program and decide for myself. Was hoping (obviously) someone here had some experience or knowledge about this one, guess not.
     
  6. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    Re: Is this virtualization and if so (or not) is it any good

    With respect to your question about virtualization, then as far as I can see and under stand the "HyperOs 10PCs-In-1" then I do not think so, not as far as the word Virtualization normally is used , but on the other hand then the word might have more defenitions or be open to, so to speak, add on interpretations via modern use of language.
    Normally when speaking of virtualization we would speak about a piece of software like M.S. Virtual P.C. or WM Ware Workstation which runs as software on your O.S. installation which then becomes the "Host O.S." and the software (e.g WM Ware Workstation) which then runs as software on your "Host O.S." will then Emulate/simulate/virtualize a hardware enviroment with varying degree of pass through to the system on which it is installed.
    In the, by the program (e.g WM Ware Workstation) , Emulated/simulated/virtualized Hardware enviroment you may then install a number of different instances of guest O.S.' .
    One of the great problems with virtualized hardware enviroments are that they up until now never have been good enough to create/virtualize the hardware enviroment so things like DirectX in the guest O.S. either do not work or works only partly or at least not as good as if on real hardware.

    I find the sellers/makers of "HyperOs 10PCs-In-1" very very untrusthworthy.
    They do not offer any trial product, at their site a link to support seems absent and seemingly they don't even offer an easy download of a product manual so that one might get aquainted with their product.
    Then their lingo and explanations sounds like 50% crap whipped up with whatever else
    They write (their spelling error included) :
    A Virtual PC software enables you to run one master copy of Windows on several connected pieces of hardware, so that you can keep going if one piece of hardware fails. This is called hardware virtualisation because the master copy of Windows actually emualtes hardware. It acts like it is the hardware.
    To me this sounds like crap, as far as I know then normal virtualization software runs on one computer or Server which we consider as one hardware system though it may consist of more parts (like drives, memory CPU and so on) but if any of these parts stops funtioning then you "can't keep going" as we know that the PC/Server will seize functioning. Also I do not think they are right when they write that "the master copy of Windows actually emualtes hardware" (they probably means emulate hardware) as what they calls "master copy of Windows" doesn't "emulate hardware". Surely an O.S. like Windows actually consists of a Graphical User Interface (G.U.I.) that is nothing other than a graphic interface that "sits on top" of mess of other software pieces and layers of software interconnected. Some of these pieces of software (the drivers) takes care of the more directly interfacing to the hardware though probably through both O.S. Kernel and BIOS. So an O.S. like Windows is like a ressource interface that through a complex layer of different sections of pieces of software allows you to utilize your hardware, and the Graphical User Interface is then another piece of software on top of the rest and allows you some level of control through different types of "HID" (Human Interface Devices).
    So yes, your "Master O.S."/"Host O.S." do interface to the hardware and controls it but as I see it it does not emulate hardware in anyway (though software such as DirectX and the rest of the O.S. acts like a "go between" between the hardware and the software that runs on the Host O.S.)
    The actual emulation/simulation/virtualization is not done by the "Host O.S." but by the virtualization software (e.g WM Ware Workstation) which in turn then presents the "Guest O.S." with a virtualized hardware enviroment.

    Then they keep on babbling : :
    HyperOs 2009 enables you to run several copies of Windows on one piece of hardware so that if one Windows system fails you swap to the next. It is a very simple form of software virtualization. Software goes wrong more frequently than hardware does! Virtual PC software also enables you to run several copies of Windows at the same time on a master copy of Windows which emulates hardware in software. This is incredibly clever but incredibly resource intensive. So it slows down your PC tremendously. It is also rather risky because it requires a lot of copies of Windows all to work at the same time! HyperOs runs several copies of Windows one after the other, which is not quite so clever but a hell of a lot safer and simpler
    They make it sound like most users will run several instances of installed "Guest O.S." installations at one time on their virtualization software, which I consider as some stretch of the truth because the average home user of for example M.S. Virtual P.C. will start their host O.S. and then by means or their virtualization software start up a single instant of "Guest O.S." when needed.
    Surely the industry uses Virtualization on a very great scale but that is another story and that is actually because it is either easier for them or more economical and they uses mean high performance server hardware (perhaps even cluster computing ?) The makers of "HyperOs 10PCs-In-1" wants to sell it to users of a single workstation and offer them the opportunity to switch between different copies of the same O.S. so this is all together different which then makes what they write b.s. ....

    Also they brag that their Windows installations can see each other ("What is the difference between HyperOs 2009 and Dual Booting?"), I have however seen examples of situations where that is not so smart and actually creating some rather nasty problems (which I will neither discuss nor document) .

    I think that , though they do it themselves, it is very wrong to use the term virtualization here.
    As I see it then the "HyperOs 10PCs-In-1" is more working like an advanced "Sandbox" application.
    With respect to "Sandbox" applications then I've seen around here that a lot (or some) of peolple advertize (under their system specs) that they use "Sandbox" applications. I have also noticed a sharp increase in different pieces of software that either claims to semi-virtualize or to act like "Sandbox" applications, however I personally have never tried any of those that I found worked quite to my satisfaction without creating un-desired system disturbances, problems, malfunctions, whatever....

    I personally probably would not go for something like "HyperOs 10PCs-In-1" , but then again there is a lot of things that I wouldn't do ;)
     
  7. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Thank you very much for your detailed post and comments. I think, after reading what you have to say, that I will not try this software and eventually get around to installing and learning to use VBox or VMware. Your input is much appreciated.
     
  8. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    Happy you could use my analysis/comments....

    I don't know how much you know about virtualization...
    Anyway : Should you wanna play around with some virtual installations of Windows you can still download "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" for free. Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1 does not have any support for directX at all for Guest O.S.' but it can on the other hand use both Win XP and Win Vista as both Host O.S. and as Guest O.S. . I have played around with it some times and think it is OK to get a little experience about running an O.S. in a virtual enviroment.

    If you would like to run old DOS games you ought to try DOSBOX emulator I think that it actually runs many games better and easier than original DOS .
    You can get newest DOSBox 0.74 here or get an older version bundled with my favourite DOSBOX Frontend (DBGL) plus games collection down the page here. (The frontend requieres Java installed)
    Actually it is not so stupid as it may sound, kind of nice to walk down memory lane...

    With repect to "VMware Workstation 7" then it has some DirectX 9c support for Guest O.S.' , but please don't get your hopes up too high because the DirectX support is far from perfect. VMware Workstation 7 itself seems as a reasonably nice product (though not free) and you can download a free 30 days trial here .
    Please note that some configurations may require that your CPU provides hardware assisted virtualization.

    With kind regards / Good luck
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  9. Chuck57

    Chuck57 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Posts:
    1,422
    Location:
    New Mexico, USA
    I'll add that if you're using Vists Home Premium that MS Virtual PC does run just fine with it. For whatever reason, it isn't supported.

    I'm using Vista Home sp2 on my laptop and have MS Virtual PC. It isn't VMWare or Virtual Box, but I'm happy with it.
     
  10. wat0114

    wat0114 Guest

    I shake my head and laugh when I see:

    Isn't that awesome, I don't need to throw my computer out when it crashes...yayyy! :rolleyes:
     
  11. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    Hi "Chuck57"
    Could you please elaborate..
    I have run "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1", but only on and with Windows XP.
    The data with/for Host O.S. and Guest O.S. I have taken from the "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" download page where it says :
    This update for Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 includes support for the following additional Host and Guest Operating Systems:

    Additonal Guest Operating System support:
    Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
    Windows Vista® Business Edition with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
    Windows Vista® Enterprise Edition with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
    Windows Server® 2008 Standard
    Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3

    Additional Host Operating System support:
    Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
    Windows Vista® Business Edition with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
    Windows Vista® Enterprise Edition with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
    Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3


    So I have had nothing else to go on that M.S.' info , and as you write yourself then "MS Virtual PC. It isn't VMWare" , but I still think that it runs reasonable well , atleast good enogh to get ones first experiences with O.S.' on Virtual enviroment.

    I was around "Virtual Box" a long time ago but both I and my brother discarded it as useless because of serious disturbances on USB products on the Host O.S. and as far as I remember these disturbances/problems continued even when turning off "Virtual Box" USB support.....
    So I'm not inclined to go there again any time soon , nomatter other peoples experiences - there are plenty of virtual machines out there and free isn't the only factor to consider.
    At the moment I would use "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" or VM Ware Workstation if I have to (I got an older one of them I got for free from VM Ware, almost never use it anywway however... , because none of the virtual machines fully and truly support all kinds of DirectX and so on..)


    * Edited to specify "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" throughout the text rather than just "Microsoft Virtual PC"
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  12. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    In truth I know extremely little about virtualization and thats why I am looking for a VERY simple solution. I did get a Returnil licence and used it for a bit but it seemed to cause some issues with my PC and I gave it up. I expect my first experience will be with VBox Portable but the idea it could cause USB issues is a bit of a turn off.

    Thanks for the info and suggestions, I will be back with lots of questions and no doubt requests for help when I finally get into this stuff.
     
  13. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    Yeah , I had issues with "Returnil" also , installed it , tried it and uninstalled it....
    With respect to VBox then it is not necessarily so that there still is USB issues, there were when I tried it but that is quite a while ago and it might have been fixed , I simply don't know.
    If you just want to try to run Win XP in a Virtual enviroment on an XP installation then because it is simple I think that you ought to try M.S.' free "Virtual PC 2007 SP1".
    If you want something more advanced I would suggest VM Wares Workstation.
    However as soon as you want anything more than to install your O.S. in your virtual enviroment you will most likely either run into some problems one time or the other or have to do a lot to get up to speed about how things are done.
    Also things does not always work as smooth as they should, like for example "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" has something called Virtual machine extensions that should be installed also (VM Ware got their "VMware Tools"), and sometimes these things goes smooth other times they don't. Also issues like transporting files between Host O.S. and Guest O.S. sometimes goes easy and sometimes they may be issues depending on whatever. (And ofcourse different Virtual machines , different capabilities and different limitations)
    But you should not let any of this scare you or deter you.
    "M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1" and VM Ware Workstation are just programs like all other programs (though they may be able to do special things) and like other programs you just have to learn system, and other, requirements plus you have to get to know the programs , what they can do and how to use them. That is not different from other software and they can be uninstalled. Then the Guest O.S. you install you can probaly choose to be existing only as a file on your harddrive (in "M.S Virtual PC 2007 SP1" they just are I don't know if you have other choices in whatever else you might wanna try) and as such they should be easy to get rid of.

    I think that both M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1 and VM Ware Workstation can use iso images insted of real disks to install from if you wish (When instaling guest O.S.). As far as I have understood then VM Ware Workstation 7.1 actually can convert backup images (like for example Norton Ghost Drive Backups) into a virtual disk (see user manuals section "Creating a Virtual Machine
    from a System Image or Another Virtual Machine"), but as Virtualized hardware in Virtual enviroment is probably different from the real hardware I can't see how well this might work, so your best bet is to just install your O.S. from scratch in the Virtual enviroment. Having done that you can however just take a file copy of the files representing your Virtual installation harddisk and eventual settings file so if you then screw up you can just overwrite with your backup copy of the virual disk file and your installation is as good as new again. So every time that you have sucessfully installed an O.S. in your Virtual enviroment then just take a simple file copy of the file(s) representing virtual HD and settings and you will end up with a library of ready to go installations that you may mount and use when it fits you.

    Like I wrote , just try M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1 , it is easy , and you can play around with it for free, it is nothing to be afraid of - just give it a go (who knows , you might even ejoy yourself). Then you will end up wanting something that is more advanced like "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" and you can then try that and buy it if you like it. They got a lot of free to download documentation for "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" so you can familiarise yourself with all sorts of things without even owning the products - I think it is really great that one freely can download manuals and such to get to know things.


    * Edited to specify "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" throughout the text rather than just "Microsoft Virtual PC"
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  14. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Thank you for this, I have bookmarked a download site for M.S. Virtual PC. and hope to get to trying it soon.

    I do have a question or two before I go ahead though.

    I am running RollBack Rx on my laptop. If I load M.S. Virtual PC and have a problem would a revert using RB get me safely back to the system prior to the install? I expect it would but I would rather appear dumb and ask the question than just go ahead and then possibly have a problem. As noted above I know almost nothing about virtualization and so do not know if installing a VM will mean affecting the PC at a deep enough level to mess up RollBack?

    In addition with M.S. Virtual PC would I have to load Windows from a set-up disk or will I be able to just replicate my existing installation?
     
  15. Boyfriend

    Boyfriend Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Posts:
    1,070
    Location:
    Pakistan
    You should not have any issue with MS Virtual PC (2007 SP1). I am using it since I switched to Windows 7 (Oct 2009).
    RollBack Rx (9.1) will surely revert successfully as MS VPC does not alter your MBR or other critical parts of OS.
     
  16. starfish_001

    starfish_001 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Posts:
    1,041
  17. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    After reading your post I then gave "RollBack Rx" a look. It looks like a sophisticated, advanced and effiecient/powerful tool, if I should judge from what they write at their pages. But I do not have any experiences with "RollBack Rx" what so ever so it would be very hard for me to to say what will happen if.... and so on.
    However "RollBack Rx" offers rollback and uninstall (as far as I have understood it) so you can roll things back to prior to any program installation if you wish so, and like I wrote earlier then "M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1 and VM Ware Workstation is just programs like all other programs (though they may be able to do special things)" so there is no need with respect to these two programs to have any fears that they are more dangerous or problematic to have on your system than other programs or that VM Ware Workstation alters your boot record. They are simply programs like any other program.
    However, please notice that "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" has the capability as an option to install a Guest O.S. to a physical disk rather than to a virtual disc, choosing such an advanced option certainly will influence your logic data on your physical harddrive. To understand about this please see "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" user manual Chapter 11 : "Using Disks and Disk Drives" , subsection : "Using Physical Disks in a Virtual Machine" where VM Ware warns : "Physical disks are an advanced feature. Do not configure them unless you are an expert user."
    Ofcourse as soon as you start to or attempt to use externally connected devices like printers and USB devices through "VM Ware Workstation" (and the program has installed its device interface for such devices) then there is a chance that this might interfer with how things are working on your host O.S. or that your device may not function through your guest O.S. .
    It would ofcourse be impossible for me to forsee all possible ramifications.
    I got an older "VM Ware Workstation" (with USB support) on the PC I am using to write this and it has never given me a bother or problem with respect to interferring with how my PC runs, of course "VM Ware Workstation" sometimes will ask that its network driver can have access through my firewall, I just disallow and then no problem. But I can not issue any warranties to you about about how things, for you, are going to work or not.

    To give you an idea about USB on "VM Ware Workstation" I copied part of the help files USB explanation and put it below here (with reference to "fair use", ofcourse copyright to the text belongs to VM Ware) to allow you to have an idea of the minimum ramifications if you wanna use USB devices in/through a virtual machine. (As far as I know then "M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1" does not offer USB support but it does offer Hardware Assisted Virtualization)

    Device Control on a Windows Host
    When you connect a device to a virtual machine, it is disconnected from the host or from the virtual machine that previously had control of the device. When you disconnect a device from a virtual machine, it is “plugged in” to the host.
    Under some circumstances, if a USB storage device is in use on the host (for example, one or more files stored on the device are open on the host), an error appears in the virtual machine when you try to connect to the device. You must let the host complete its operation or close any application connected to the device on the host, and connect to the device in the virtual machine again.
    On Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003 hosts, when you connect a USB network or storage device to a virtual machine, a message might appear on the host that says the device can be removed safely. This is normal behavior, and you can dismiss the dialog box. However, do not remove the device from your physical computer.
    If the network or storage device does not disconnect from the host, use the appropriate system tray icon to disconnect it. On Windows 2000, the icon is called Eject Hardware. On Windows XP and Windows Server 2003, it is called Safely Remove Hardware.


    With respect to for example USB devices it should be obvious that care ought to be taken and common sense ought to be used , and also it should be obvious that there might be devices that possibly will not work, but I believe that if one uses a quality product such as "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" then of course chance is also that the product generally speaking will work better and have better support......
    I am not aware that "M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1" will allow you to just replicate your existing Host O.S. installation. "VM Ware Workstation" however does offer a wide variety of import functions and possibilities (please see "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" user manual section 6: "Creating a Virtual Machine from a System Image or Another Virtual Machine" and subsection "Importing from Various Sources : Physical Machine Source" .
    I do however not myself fully trust such import functions funtionality, I myself would rather go with safe which I think is to install the O.S. into the Virtual machine yourself (load/install Windows from a set-up disk), that way one is completely sure that nothing is going wrong in "translation".
    However as I have written to you earlier then, if you are smart this is a one time event (for each V.M. product) as you after installation simply can copy (or export) the files representing the virtual machine installation. "M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1" is really easy as it is less advanced than "VM Ware Workstation". For help on copying/cloning "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" Guest O.S. installations then please see "VM Ware Workstation 7.1" user manual sections : chapter 4 - subsection "Files That Make Up a Virtual Machine" and chapter 10 "Cloning, Moving, and Sharing Virtual Machines".

    If you had known someone that had already installed their O.S. into their Virtual machine and there had not been any O.S. license issues it would have been very easy for you to get started as you could then just have had a copy/export of the files representing their virtual machine O.S. installation (atleast provided that both Host O.S.' had been e.g. 32 bit or 64 bit.)
    Had there not been an O.S. license issue I could in theory just have given you a copy of my files, if my Guest O.S. had been the same language as yours, and you would have been up and running in a matter of minutes.

    But if you just want to test "M.S. Virtual PC 2007 SP1" to see what it is like, and think it takes too long time to install a Win XP you could just install a Win 98 SE if you got one laying around that will not take much time compared.

    With respect to this pages info and links then you also have the possiblity to save the page to your harddrive to have and read/use page content off-line.


    * Edited to specify "Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1" throughout the text rather than just "Microsoft Virtual PC"
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  18. MrBrian

    MrBrian Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    Posts:
    6,032
    Location:
    USA
    I use VirtualBox with USB support disabled in all of my virtual machines, and I haven't had any USB trouble with my real OS.
     
  19. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I will begin with M.S. Virtual PC and then perhaps graduate in time to either VBox or VMWare. Much appreciated.
     
  20. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    You are most welcome...
    Good luck with your ventures/"voyage" into using Virtual machines!
     
  21. Meriadoc

    Meriadoc Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Posts:
    2,642
    Location:
    Cymru
    If this is still a HyperOS thread :) I've been given a retail disk from work, looks like it was never used -we get a lot of freebies- certainly I've not used it before...Going to have a play, although on install it gave me an option for 1-22 computers.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  22. Fiat_Lux

    Fiat_Lux Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Posts:
    180
    Judging from you picture I think you might as well yourself had called it a "VM Ware Workstation" thread ;)
     
  23. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Yup, still a Hyper OS thread from the point of view that I would appreciate hearing from someone who has used the program. I look forward to hearing from you what you think of it.
     
  24. Meriadoc

    Meriadoc Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Posts:
    2,642
    Location:
    Cymru
    Give me some time with it and I'll let you know. From the help,
     

    Attached Files:

  25. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,132
    Thanks, much appreciated
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.