IFW Hot Backup of RollBack System Saves Baseline Snapshot?

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by The Shadow, Jun 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Shadow

    The Shadow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Posts:
    814
    Location:
    USA
    I am a relatively new RollBack Rx user and a brand new IFW user. Within this forum I've read various posts indicating I could make a hot backup image of my system partition with RollBack installed and that would backup my current system (it was further stated in those posts that by upon restoring this image I would have to uninstall and reinstall RollBack, but I was willing to 'live with that').

    Well, I'm here to say that ain't necessarily so! - I did a hot backup of my system this morning using IFW and then restored the image. Can you imagine my shock when I found that the restored image was that of my 2-day old baseline snapshot and not my most current system (at the time of backup)!!! o_O

    Thank goodness my baseline snapshot was only 2-days old!

    TS
     
  2. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Can you please define hot backUp?

    Best regards,

    KOR!

    P.S. No pun intended!
     
  3. garry35

    garry35 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Posts:
    329
    i think he means from within windows, rather than from bootable media ie. cd / dvd or flashdrive
     
  4. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    You wanna bet that he doesn't mean that?

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  5. The Shadow

    The Shadow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Posts:
    814
    Location:
    USA
    That is exactly what I mean (and what I did)! - isn't that the correct meaning of the term 'hot image'? o_O
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  6. twl845

    twl845 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Posts:
    4,186
    Location:
    USA
    I remember a long discussion about this last November I believe, stating that indeed IFW would do an image with RB installed. I'm interested in IFW and am looking forward to how the discussion goes.
     
  7. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    What you describe in OP is cold imaging (outside Windows).

    Here is how it works when Rollback Rx is installed.

    Cold Imaging (outside Windows):

    1. Non sector, normal imaging: Any imaging program will work and they will only capture the baseline snapshot.

    2. Sector based, complete disk imaging: Any imaging program will work and they will capture all snapshots.

    Hot Imaging (inside Windows):

    1. Non sector, normal imaging: Any imaging program will work and they will only capture the current snapshot. Upon restoration, you have to uninstall Rollback Rx and then reinstall.

    2. Sector based, complete disk imaging: Only IFW is capable and no other imaging programs is. It will work capture all snapshots. In registry in the UpperFilters, the PysLock.sys should be above Shield.sys

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  8. The Shadow

    The Shadow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Posts:
    814
    Location:
    USA
    KOR, I don't see how I described cold imaging when I specifically alluded to doing a (normal) hot backup *from within Windows* using IFW. So far, I have not ever attempted a cold backup!


    That's what I did, but there is no confusion (on my part) that doing so saved my baseline snapshot!!!

    TS
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  9. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    What you have described above has never been heard of it before. One can think of three situations.

    1. There has been change in IFW and we are not aware of it.

    2. When you did your hot image, you only had baseline snapshot and no other snapshots. However, on restoration of the image, Rollback Rx shouldn't work. For Rollback Rx to work, you have to uninstall it first and then reinstall it.

    3. You forgot and did a cold image, and now you think that you have done a hot image.

    Is Rollback Rx working on restoration of the image?

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  10. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Posts:
    3,052
    Location:
    The Pond - USA
    Greetings! If The Shadow did a HOT IFW image... AND the PHYLOCK UpperFilter was above the SHIELD UpperFilter in the UpperFilter list (either IFW installed AFTER RBrx or PHYLOCK positioned there manually via RegEdit).. AND he forgot to select "Backup Unused Sectors"... he will wind up with only the baseline INSTALLATION image.

    If the UpperFilter sequence is reversed for the above scenario, he'll wind up with the CURRENT SYSTEM IMAGE rather than the INSTALLATION image.

    If you want a complete RBrx restoration, the above must be met and "Backup Unused Sectors" must be selected prior to image processing.
     
  11. The Shadow

    The Shadow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Posts:
    814
    Location:
    USA
    Hi Rollback Frog, thanks for the sanity check (I think)!

    While I find your explanation of the upper filter stuff somewhat too technical for me, I did install IFW after I installed RollBack (however, since restoring my backup I had to uninstall RollBack and reinstall it). Contrary to KOR's suggestion that I did a cold image backup, I actually did a hot image backup with IFW (mostly using its default settings). Restoring that image resulted in my baseline snapshot (and a disfunctional RollBack).

    TS
     
  12. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    TS,

    Did you select "Backup Unused Sectors" when you created your image? It is not a default setting.
     
  13. The Shadow

    The Shadow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Posts:
    814
    Location:
    USA
    Hi Brian,

    No, I did not - as mentioned previously I just used IFW's default settings.

    TS
     
  14. Scott W

    Scott W Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Posts:
    493
    Location:
    USA
    Hey guys,

    When I was testing IFW in backing up my RB system (a few months ago) I did notice that making a hot-backup using Phylock (IFW's default system-snapshot driver) resulted in IFW copying my baseline snapshot, whereas using VSS (Windows system-snapshot driver) saved my current system state. I figured this was an idiosyncracy of Phylock and made a note of it.

    Interestingly, DS' proprietary system-snapshot driver does not behave that way. It delivers the same result as when VSS is activated (i.e., the current system state is saved).

    And as a side-note, I find that VSS results in faster hot-backups with both DS and IFW than their respective proprietary drivers!

    Scott
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  15. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Dear The Shadow,

    If you are going to use Rollback Rx, then you better learn about UpperFilters. If you don't than you would wound up from one of those "saved my bacon" to the "horrors of Rollback Rx".

    Let me give you examples of two software. Since, you have already Rollback Rx installed, if you now install either O&O DiskImage or Jetico BestCrypt, you will have no problem as the UpperFilters drivers for these software will be above Shield.sys in UpperFilters.

    A month later you decide to uninstall Rollback Rx either for maintenance or to install the updated version. Now since, Rollback Rx is a newer installation the Shield.sys will be the topmost UpperFilter in UpperFilter drivers, above the drivers of O&O DiskImage and Jetico BestCrypt in UpperFilters.

    Now your nightmare will start. Every time when you restart your computer, you will get a Rollback Rx ERROR at boot, "Improper Shutdown". It will go into trying to recover files. After 5 or 6 shutdowns the chkdsk will start and it try to recover tons of improper files. After a week or so, your hard disk will be useless.

    But you will not know what created this nightmare. You will not even suspect either O&O DiskImage or Jetico BestCrypt as you installed them a month ago and they seem to work perfectly. Since, then you might have installed other software and deleted some other.

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  16. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Dear Brain,

    If he uninstalls Rollback Rx and reinstalls it (which he has already done), then Shied.sys will be above Phylock.sys in UpperFilters for him now, therefore with IFW he can do normal hot imaging. The normal hot imaging will give him the current snapshot of Rollback Rx on restore and not the baseline snapshot of Rollback Rx.

    He can do sector to sector hot imaging that will give him all the snapshots of Rollback Rx on restore. ONLY IFW CAN DO THIS AND NO OTHER IMAGING PROGRAM CAN DO THIS<> INCLUDING SNAPSHOT DRIVE. But, he has to move Phylock.sys above Shield.sys

    This is the beauty and strength of IFW over other imaging programs, and that includes Drive Snapshot. Add to that the price of IFW and the support, nothing beats it.

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  17. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Dearest Scott,

    It is NOT the idiosyncrasy of IFW but rather Rollback Rx as explained above. With IFW you can do normal hot imaging and capture the current snapshot of Rollback Rx as explained above again.

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  18. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    KOR,

    Thanks for the info. Did you mean IFW instead of IFL in the last two posts?
     
  19. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Hi Brain,

    You are right, it should read IFW rather than IFL. For $10 per computer, one gets IFW, IFL and IFD.

    ONLY AND ONLY IFW CAN DO ALL FOUR TYPES OF IMAGING, THE OTHER IMAGING PROGRAMS CAN ONLY DO THREE OUT OF FOUR.

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  20. Scott W

    Scott W Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Posts:
    493
    Location:
    USA
    Hi KOR,

    The fact of the matter is that your last 4 posts do not address The Shadow's issue; instead, I'm sorry to say, they sound more like an IFW infomercial. The Shadow attempted to make an IFW hot-backup of his current system state while RB was active. Upon restoring that image he discovered that he had captured the baseline snapshot. He is confused as to why that happened would like to remedy the problem. That is what we should be addressing.

    I know that The Shadow is very knowledgeable when it comes to using Shadow Defender, but he is very new to RB and IFW. Imho one can be user-literate without the necessity of being tech-literate. So addressing the situation which prompted The Shadow to start this thread, there is really a very simple solution which doesn't require knowledge of upper filters and taking any registry edit risks. All that's necessary is to set IFW to use VSS instead of Phylock (and have IFW save the setting). Then regardless of his uninstalling-reinstalling RB, IFW will always make perfect hot (normal) backups of his RB-System volume, capturing the current system state (which is precisely what he wants to do).

    Use of Phylock instead of VSS, knowledge of upper filters, and editing the registry has an advantage over using VSS only if The Shadow were interested in making a hot backup including unused sectors, which he isn't. He said he just wants to backup the current state of his system (i.e., a hot backup of used sectors only). So the solution I'm proposing above is very simple, very effective, and no need to ever mess with upper filters or the registry.

    Scott
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  21. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Posts:
    3,131
    Scott is correct as to TSs concern assuming that by current system TS is referring to the current state of his system and not the ENTIRE system, which could be interpreted as the entire drive.

    I must confess that I understood the concern to be with the current state but I do see how the question could be understood otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  22. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Already this has been addressed by both Froggie and I. Since, he has now restored the image and had to reinstall Rollback Rx, therefore he can now use IFW with Phylock for hot normal imaging which will capture his current snapshot of Rollback Rx, without messing with UpperFilters in the registry. Be a good reader!

    No need to use VSS and he should use Phylock. He can uninstall-install Rollback Rx umpteen of times and still use Phylock and he will capture the current snapshot of Rollback Rx when doing hot imaging with IFW and Phylock. This has been confirmed by both Froggie and I. Be a good reader.

    Again, be a good reader. This has been said umpteen of times and confirmed by Froggie that since he has now recently installed Rollback Rx after restoring the image done by IFW, therefore without messing with UpperFilters, he will be now able to make a hot normal image (i.e., a hot backup of used sectors only) with IFW and Phylock and this will capture his current snapshot of Rollback Rx. He can now install-uninstall Rollback Rx thousand of times and it will not matter.

    BE A GOOD READER!

    Best regards,

    KOR!

    P.S. My other posts were cautioning him about Rollback Rx and the nightmares of Rollback Rx.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  23. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Dear Scott,

    See below what Froggie is saying:

    Now for TS, IFW is installed BEFORE RBrx ....., as after restoring the image with IFW, he has uninstalled-installed RBrx, therefore he'll wind up with the CURRENT SYSTEM IMAGE rather than the INSTALLATION (baseline) image.

    P.S. My other posts were cautioning him about Rollback Rx and the nightmares of Rollback Rx.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  24. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Posts:
    3,052
    Location:
    The Pond - USA
    Greetings, once again, TS!

    I know this all seems a bit confusing but it's all due to RBrx's system management and not any IFW anomalies.

    I'll try to summarize...

    1. If you ever want to do a FULL disk/partition image of your fully functional RBrx system and all its snapshots, you must insure the above conditions are met (last to install = IFW or PHYLOC positioned above SHIELD in the UpperFilter REGISTRY key, and "Backup Unused Sectors" option selected in the final options list in IFW).

    2. If your main interest is in your CURRENT SYSTEM STATE when you image, the easiest method is to select "Use VSS" in IFW's options (this is NOT the DEFAULT). In this case it will not matter how or when RBrx and IFW were installed. However... when that image is restored, RBrx will be neutered (non-functional and no sub-console) and any previously managed snapshots will be gone. At this point, RBrx must be unINSTALLed (be patient here, it takes longer when the sub-console is no longer available) then reINSTALLed for continued RBrx functionality.

    As you can see from above, as soon as you do operation #2 (last to install = RBrx, not IFW), operation #1 is no longer available unless the UpperFilters are repositioned in the REGISTRY.

    I wish it was easier to explain :oops: ... but I guess it isn't. When you have two different technologies trying to assist each other, things like this do happen sometimes.
     
  25. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Dear Froggie,

    Can you please confirm that in above scenario, where last to install = RBrx, not IFW, that he can also use PHYLOCK, when he is doing hot normal (non-sector based) imaging and on restoration he will have the current snapshot of RBrx?

    Please confirm with YES OR NO, so not to further confuse!

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.