I do not think all has been said regarding TDS-3

Discussion in 'Trojan Defence Suite' started by Denny, Jul 25, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dog

    dog Guest

    Re: Why not making TDS-3 freeware?

    Would there be an alternative motive here?
     
  2. muf

    muf Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Posts:
    926
    Location:
    Manchester, England
    Let me refresh your memory. Post #248
    I don't see where you extrapolate from Wayne's comment improvements to ProcessGuard. He didn't say that. His wording quite clearly says that TDS4 technologies will be evident in his next program.

    I think you'll find that there isn't anti-DCS going on here. Or no witch hunt for that matter which i suspect is the reason for your 'prominent' support. DCS have gone back on their word, and shrugged it off as inconsequential. The customers aren't happy about it, and are letting DCS know about it. If DCS want to shrug their shoulders and say "so what" then they risk the possibility of losing customers. Telling customers that they have lost their free upgrade but can purchase the next new software at full whack just doesn't cut it with most customers. That's what the TDS3 crew are trying to hammer home to Wayne, but he chooses to not listen. His cross, he has to bare it.

    muf
     
  3. Tron

    Tron Guest

    This seems like a suitable solution to me, does this sound a reasonable proposition to everyone ? Quoting directly from the webpage..

    I have a suggestion which could alleviate a lot of frustration amongst users. If they choose not to take up the current/future offers, then for every month of purchase they get back between, one 12th and up to 100% of the purchase price going back a full year. I think that sounds fair and reasonable and would bring much kudos to DCS.

    hxxp://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13955382~start=40#end
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2005
  4. David Schenk

    David Schenk Guest

    Hello,

    You're right--I did misremember the comment about the upcoming software. Thank you for the correction. Nonetheless, while I agree there is no witch hunt here, there is a considerable amount of overreaction and leaping to judgment. I mean, the announcement was made FRIDAY. It is now MONDAY; how much time have we actually given them to explain just what's going on and how best to pursue remedies for purchased licenses?

    I fully grant, it does not help appearances that they kept saying TDS4 was on its way, but I've already pointed to at least one or two possible non-paranoid explanations of how this might have happened. Really, I still insist we just have to wait for them to give a fuller account of all this. When has conjecture ever been anything *more* than conjecture?

    I also do not see good evidence for your claim that they have shrugged this off as inconsequential. Again, quite a bit more time is needed to make such a sweeping determination of their attitude and approach. All we actually *KNOW* at this time is that DCS cancelled a product line with a much-anticipated update. Kevin McAleavey's comments on all of this were extremely informative (probably because unlike ours, they were also extremely informed).

    From way across the ocean, it looks to me like they found themselves just unable to keep up with the rate of increase of new trojans and so could not maintain the updates and therefore judged that the definition-based software was no longer viable. I can *easily* see honest and well-intentioned people putting off the moment where they finally confess that it's just too much for one or two people to keep up with all the new definitions. You know--it's not always easy to admit defeat (especially when you're fighting for something worthy).

    No, man--I repeat my plea for a return to some degree of charity and civility here. Scream at them after they *demonstrate* that they don't care about their TDS customers, not three hours after the angry and essentially reactive *suspicion* that they don't care first enters one's head. That just isn't fair.

    -David
     
  5. Denny

    Denny Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2002
    Posts:
    43
    David,

    Neither was abandoning, without warning, the installed paid user base of TDS-3.

    Wayne has demonstrated exactly what he thinks he can do and get away with to the paid customers of TDS-3.

    Denny
     
  6. richrf

    richrf Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Posts:
    1,907
    Hi all,

    I would characterize this as a DCS decision, as opposed to a Wayne decision. The two may not be equivalent. Sometimes it is difficult to make a judgement about what may be happening without all of the facts. But I do agree, that whatever "entity" made the decisions, it was ill-advised and will continue to come back and haunt the company. For example, whenever someone tries to recommend a DCS product, as opposed to a competitive product (of which there will be many), this incident will surely be brought up. So who wants to take the constant flak? Not I.

    Cya,
    Rich
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2005
  7. hollywoodpc

    hollywoodpc Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2005
    Posts:
    1,325
    This is all funny .
    Poor management . Did Wayne lie all along ? Who cares . Tds is now a joke . Gone . Let it go . I knew a longgggg time back that this would happen . The problem is , Moderators and Administrators have told you all to basically shutup when asking about TDS4 . I love how the SAME old DCS butt kissers are still doing it too . It is funny . DCS has caused this by being too quiet on TDS 4 all along . Had they kept you updated on progress via the forum , I think things would be much better . WILL they HAVE more products ? Based on the 20 years it took to make TDS 4 , then to say , SORRY , no TDS 4 . Too funny . More products huh ? I hope but , I will believe it when I see it as the comments made by Wayne concerning new products SHOULD be falling on deaf ears .
    If there are to be more products , let us hope that management handles things better this time . Of course , is the forum any good when it comes to this ? NOPE . What has anyone heard in the last 12-15 concerning the TDS 4 release and what is happening with it ? Let me refresh your memories . Quoting now " It will be ready when it is ready " . AKA . " SHUT THE $#@! UP ABOUT IT . Very sad but this is why I left long ago . No respect for the users . Just butt kissers for the TDS crew . I realize they put much time and effort into this . But , AGAIN , you all should have been kept up to date on what was happening . They chose not to and people are now angry . I , for one , am glad it is now over . I hope admins and mods will leave well enough alone and let people talk about this . Too much censorship going on . Again , when people start talking about DCS in a bad way , OMG , the " biggies " must step in and tell us to be quiet . Stop talking bad about DCS . WAH WAH WAH .
    People are upset and angry and rightfully so . The idiots that continue to overlook that and talk about how GREAT DCS is should remove themselves from this forum on TDS . I do not think the RIGHT people need to be battered AGAIN by these low lifes ballyhooing TDS and how great it WAS ! Let the people that are bothered discuss this among themselves here . They do not need your help in telling them to not be negative as that gets you no where . O h well . TDS is gone , people are upset , let them be . Maybe there ARE good things to come .
    I must say though , Gavin is as good as they come . Make no mistake . Wayne went about this completely wrong ! But , their support was top notch and , I believe , will continue to be IF they stay in business . Just sad that years of good support are ruined due to their lack of info on what was happening over the last 15 months .
    To Dallen and all who never liked the silence on the TDS subject , I am sorry . I know how you feel .
    Wonder how long it will be before one of the wonderful mods or admins come and remove this .? hahaha . Like I care . Good luck you guys and God Bless
     
  8. Defenestration

    Defenestration Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2004
    Posts:
    1,105
    Very astute observation richrf, and one I have made myself.

    I have already had my say on this decision and it surprises me that a company which has prided itself on customer service coupled with innovative technology, they suddenly decide to ignore there customers opinions, as voiced in this and the other thread, and consistently post the same information in their (ie. Wayne's) replies.

    This leads me to the opinion that DCS has either been bought out, or invested in, by a third party (hence discontinuation of TDS line and the limited time offer for current users) with Wayne, Gavin and Co continuing to work for the company. If this third party wishes to continue using the DCS as a brand identity, they are making a cardinal error, with their current policy tarnishing the reputation of DCS as a honest and trustworthy company.

    Admittedly, this is only speculation, but I'm sure all will be revealed soon enough.
     
  9. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Posts:
    1,533
    Location:
    Perth, Oz
    Nothing is being said or asked that hasn't been said/asked a dozen times already, and some of you are so far off the mark as well, ie. claiming that we've been bought out by a third party? That is an unsubstantiated claim that you've just thought up out of nowhere, it is completely wrong, and you're misleading every other fellow member of this forum by making such claims. This thread will remain unlocked for now, but please folks remain civil, on topic, and this isnt Hollywood so lets give the rumours a break, they just get in the way of your fellow members questions and thoughts. This is business - hard decisions sometimes need to be made but if it's in the best interests of our customers then we won't hesitate to make them, as we're here for the long run which is why this decision needed to be made. I know that some of you (ie. especially those new to TDS) aren't in the position to be able to understand these sorts of decisions as there are so many underlying issues that need to be understood before the decision can be fully comprehended as obviously it's not a simple decision so especially those newcomers will no doubt be somewhat confused and angry, and that's fair enough, but in time all will become crystal clear so to them we ask for some patience. Many companies in our position would've been afraid to make the decision due to inevitable criticism that you initially get whenever you discontinue a software product (under any circumstances), but we're not afraid to get our feet wet if it means we'll be able to carry our customers over to the other side where there are greener pastures. Rather than concentrating on one program that you haven't even seen before, think about all the software that we'll now finally be able to release, made possible by this decison.

    Many of you giving criticism are perfectly entitled to do so, but I urge you to consider the future - not just one single program that you wish you had today. We have made this decision in order to be able to release more software to you - ie. what you come to us for, and YOU will be the ultimate winner, regardless of whether or not you understand or agree with the decision now. We're here for the long run folks, for you, and if anti-trojan/anti-spyware etc etc developers don't start making big decisions soon then you'll find that they probably won't be here for the long run, it's that simple. That is not my opinion, it's just how it is - I speak as a former anti-trojan developer with many years of experience, having developed anti-trojan software since the very first remote access trojans for Windows were released - it's not an easy industry to be in that's for sure, and I take my hat off to all the anti-trojan developers for sticking to their guns in an ever-declining industry, but sometimes you've gotta know when to move on. Signature scanning certainly has a place, but we've got more to offer than that. Just think about how few programs and software updates are being released by other anti-trojan developers ... the reason is because they're basically in the same boat as we had been, their resources are all tied up due to the dynamic day-to-day demands of the work (regardless of license/fee structure). However unlike most other AT developers, we have other software to fall back on (ie. PG, PE, WG), whereas because their scanner is essentially their only selling program they probably don't have the option of making a decision like we've made as they'd then be out of a job, so it'll make for some interesting times ahead for them to say the least if they continue to run with just one program in a declining market, but all I'll say is that if you think missing out on one free upgrade to a program is big news (its not, software is conceived and discontinued every day), then keep your eyes on the other scanners over the coming months/year(s) and see where they, and their customers end up, it will be interesting, one way or another ... :).

    So basically there were two options - you can have just one program for a short time (which is what some of you would prefer right now), or you can have lots of programs for many years to come (which is what all of you will eventually agree with in time). We've made the choice that we know some people may disagree with this year, but will make more and more sense as the years go on. All I'll say is you just watch our growth over the next couple of years, and keep an eye on the continued lack of growth by other anti-trojan developers, the same lack of growth we were experiencing due to our own scanner - they are just such an immense resource, the type where there is always work to be done, but the sales in a declining industry dont make enough to employ further analysts and programmers (expensive), and proof of that can be seen by how few anti-trojan analysts there are.

    Business is not just about today, security isn't just about one program, and TDS isn't the be all and end all of security (you haven't even seen what we're releasing next!) - always consider the bigger picture. We're evolving with the times, and we're not afraid to make the big decisions if it will be beneficial to our customers, so I don't have any concerns at all today about this decision or the criticism from some TDS users because I'm too excited giving them our upcoming releases, as I know that if you liked TDS then you'll love what we've got coming up.

    If you still have any questions or concerns about ANYTHING then please re-read the previous thread, and if that fails to answer your question then simply contact us at sales@diamondcs.com.au, we can't make it any easier than that.

    Anyway that is all I have to say on this matter, we've moved on - for you. We wouldn't if it wasn't in your best interests, it's that simple.

    Over and out and back to work,
    Wayne
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2005
  10. Denny

    Denny Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2002
    Posts:
    43
    Wayne,

    I am not a newcomer and this you know. I have not repeatedly purchased your product because of the free upgrade, but because it worked so well and I told you so in the very first E-mail I ever sent you. I continued to push your product, without compensation, even after we had agreed that I did not have to have a website, but substantiate the sale, which every one of my sales was marked in the comments section, or to my E-mail address for my client. Why did I do this you ask, quite simply because TDS-3 was the best Anti-Trojan tool, and the support, particularly by Gavin and Jooske, was beyond reproach.

    This I want everyone to know.

    This I addressed in my original post, which you still have not responded to, and I will point it out again. If TDS-3 was such a drain, you could have simply said that after this xx/xx/xx date, upgrades will not be free and DCS will more than likely have to start charging a subscription fee because of the overwhelming task this has become. Of course there were other options, but you and DCS chose not to explore them.

    As for keeping an eye on other Anti-Trojan companies, this I will do because there is NO other choice now, is there Wayne?

    No Wayne, business is not just about today, but really about tomorrow, and I firmly think you have ruined DCS' future by now creating such distrust. Again, as I said in my original post, you could have provided warning, like any professional would rightly do, but you did not. You did this on a Friday and then left folks to speculate as to they why and what they should now do the entire weekend- just like a politician does. You then came in this morning and basically told everyone again that you were reneging on contractual promises and closed the thread when the heat became too much for you. In fact, a poll asking specifically what people were going to do was closed, and you brought this to everyone’s attention shortly before closing the thread.

    If by now you fully do not grasp what you have done, then let me explain it one more time- you dumped your flagship product (even if you do not consider it as such), without warning, and left your customers, who you claim to be so concerned with, dangling. You then tell us you will generously offer "free" licenses transfers, which no other company would do, for product we already have licenses for. You will have to pardon me a moment while a take the shawl from around my shoulders and gently wipe the tears from the corners of my eyes.

    Yes Wayne, you and DCS may have moved on, and so have I, my customers, and many of your other clients.

    Denny
     
  11. Wayne - DiamondCS

    Wayne - DiamondCS Security Expert

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Posts:
    1,533
    Location:
    Perth, Oz
    Denny,
    I've replied to your email and again the same things that have already been said are being rehashed over and over so I'll just reply to a few of your comments.

    You don't know what options we had, you don't know what options we explored, nor do you understand the position we're in, financially, resource-wise or otherwise, so you are in no position to tell us what we did.

    TDS is an extremely inexpensive program to purchase and many people have received over half a decade of free updates and even software upgrades, yet it's an incredibly expensive program to maintain, requiring fulltime daily analysis/database updates/engine improvements etc. I know this means nothing to some as all some of you want is my software for free, but the reality is software costs a lot of time and money to develop, especially scanner-style software, and I don't know many businesses which give anything away for free, yet that's what we're here arguing about. We've offered free upgrades to all of our programs over the years, this is the first time we've ever been unable to grant a free upgrade and that is simply due to product discontinuation - something which happens to software regularly, as newer and better software takes its place. We must evolve for the sake of our customers, those businesses which remain stagnant will not survive long. This will become crystal clear in no less than a couple of years.

    If you believe that signature-based anti-trojan scanners is the future of security, sure.

    Again, I know it's difficult for people to focus on the future because it's a lot easier to focus on what's here today, but if people want us to keep developing software (and our software is the reason why we're all here) then these decisions must be made. I'm sorry you don't understand that, but I'm not moved as it will be people like yourself who will ultimately benefit the most anyway, regardless of whether you can see that now.

    We wouldn't make big decisions like this if it wasn't in our customers best interests, it's that simple. We're evolving with the times, some businesses choose not to.

    Best regards,
    Wayne
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2005
  12. --ntl--

    --ntl-- Guest

    @dog

    "Would there be an alternative motive here?"

    Well ... tell me. Why is it better that TDS become AbandonWare instead of freeware?
     
  13. dog

    dog Guest

    I was taking a stab at who you might really be (a developer maybe :ninja: ) ... Would you do the same? ... If they released TDS /editor and all ... who might that really benefit?
     
  14. --ntl--

    --ntl-- Guest

    @dog

    If I were a developer I would certainly NOT ask for such a step. (By contrast, I would be happy that a competitor has been eliminated.)

    Whether I would do it (if I were a developer) ... well I don't know. If there is no more money to make from TDS and there is no competition between TDS and future DCS products ... why not?

    "If they released TDS /editor and all ... who might that really benefit?"

    Possibly, the TDS userbase. Ever heard about Clam AV ( http://www.clamav.net/ )? It's also freeware.

    Moreover, I did not they that DCS *must* release TDS as freeware. I simply said they should consider it.

    (If you want to know who I am ... ask Wayne or Paul.)
     
  15. dog

    dog Guest

    ...I would think there could be useful knowledge gained (for developers or malware writers) ... but what the true benefit would be I don't know.
    I'd never say never ... but why end any chance of possibly benefiting from licensing the technology to someone else, once it's released into the public domain, you no longer have any control over it. I wouldn't release it if I had put that much time, effort and resources into it.
    Yes I have heard of Clam ... but from my 'newbie' prospective ... I don't think that would fly ... and it may easily benefit malware writers to change the code enough to let a known 'trojan' past current signatures. You'd know better than I ;) ... but isn't the TDS DB encrypted ... and if the editor was released wouldn't it allow access to it.
    Nah ... I'll stop guessing ... maybe one day you'll share, I'm just curious why it has to be such a mystery :ninja:
     
  16. Andreas1

    Andreas1 Security Expert

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Posts:
    367
    Location:
    Mainz (Ger)
    Hi all,
    I've just now become aware of this and want at least to offer my opinion as well -- although it doesn't actually add anything new to the debate.

    I can understand DCS's decision and I think it is a good decision to discontinue TDS -- good for the financial and workload situation as well as for the product suite of the company. And good for those who are open-minded enough to take advantage of the improvement -- when it's there.

    I find it perfectly in order and sufficient to offer free licences, free licences for other persons or one form or another of refunding. Of course this somehow depends on the chances of getting the refunds when one decides that one would rather get them, on the timeframe that the purchase has had to be in, on the amount of money refunded, etc. but in general it's okay with me. (And IMHO it's maybe not very very very kind not to make DCS's policy on that explicit, but in order to motivate ppl to remain licenced customers, I agree that "contact us by mail and inquire about refund options" is a permissible way to go.)

    Also I can understand that DCS don't want to promise anything about the software that's next-in-line. If they want to think about upgrade policy, discounts, bundle deals etc. when the software is finished, that's okay with me -- after all, you should be able to get a refund for your TDS3 purchase which you can save and then invest in the other program when it's ready. Okay, that would still allow for price differences and might leave the customer with additional cost to pay, but to discuss these would be *purely* speculative.

    I imagine that if you're a developer working on an upgrade for your product, publicly saying that you'll give the update once it's ready for free to those who purchase your product right now -- this doesn't enforce you to keep developing the upgrade no matter what. Neither ethically nor legally I suppose. People who purchase your product as it is because of their anticipation of the upgrade get a refund when the development of the upgrade is abandoned. (And they get additional options here.)
    Of course the fact that the upgrade has been announced for such a long time *could* mean that such a refund would apply to purchases from a long time ago as well...


    OTOH, I find it somehow a bad move that there has been no prior announcement. Of course the best solution would have been to wait with abandonment until the new software along with its pricing policy is ready and announce the transition some months before. But even without a new product at hand, it would have been better to have some time to adapt to it. To do it like that is - IMHO - just not professional.

    Also, I am a little uncertain as to what to think of "we can offer this only for a short time". I would imagine people would like that time to be extended at least until the new product is there, so they can decide to ask for a licence trade-in, for a refund or to pehaps pay some additional money to get the new one.


    So that's three pros and two cons (if I count correctly) -- only the pros are a bit more on the technical and legal side, whereas the cons are on the customer relationships side.
    I'm still with DCS but I can see that there are people upset (that was of course clear from the outset) and that has been made a mistake (from what I can tell) in communicating the transition.
    Then a part of the angerness has some reason for it. (But I don't agree with much of the other reasons mentioned in this discussion.)


    Just my 0.02
    Andreas

    P.S. I will of course keep TDS-3 installed. Heck, I even have TDS-2 installed. Not that I would use either of them frequently, but I like the idea of having them available at my fingertips.

    P.P.S. Of course I am also fully pro-"make-TDS-OpenSource" :D
     
  17. Infinity

    Infinity Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2004
    Posts:
    2,651

    Hi Andreas, I won't uninstall TDS-3 either. and opensource would be nice,

    would give a better impression after this all, cause I do understand what everyone is saying here.

    Take care
     
  18. Phant0m

    Phant0m Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Posts:
    3,726
    Location:
    Canada
    I think the honourable thing here would have been to sell TDS code, and have agreement setup for those who already had purchased TDS, or as Andreas1 has said make-TDS-OpenSource.

    TDS is obviously a liked product, and been around for many years, so the above should have been applied, rather then to let pride get in the way (If I can’t maintain it, no one will!)

    I suppose be much more money making if you cancel every licensed TDS user, discontinue TDS sales, wait, make some GUI changes, come out afterwards with a whole new Anti-Trojan product to be sold.
    :rolleyes:
     
  19. beetlejuice69

    beetlejuice69 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Posts:
    780
    Gee I wonder where we heard that one before. ;)
     
  20. Phant0m

    Phant0m Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Posts:
    3,726
    Location:
    Canada
    ... lol
     
  21. Phant0m

    Phant0m Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Posts:
    3,726
    Location:
    Canada
    Ahaha, you had mentioned something similar, I didn’t know, I didn’t take the time to go through every single post here... I simply stating my opinions :)
     
  22. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    20,590
    Common guys give it a break. There is a real world here. Sure someone who just purchased TDS rightfully is upset. But when you say Wayne should have given prior warning that is nonsense.

    Think about it. How many products and services give much if any warning. Okay so say they gave one month warning. What about the guy/girl who bought it 5 weeks ago. Some have griped about the fact it was done on Friday. So what. When I worked in industry and there were layoff's(I've been on both ends), there was rarely warning and it was always done on Friday. It really doesn't matter.

    Make TDS opencode. a) first why give away how you do things, and b) as time goes on without updates the value of that will diminish.

    Personally I think Wayne did the right thing. I have been concerned for some time that the whole TDS concept might be outdated, since the market, which is driven by the malware folks is having to move to the proactive approach rather than the reactive approach.

    Will this "distrust" hurt DCS's future business. I don't think so. You might say today never again, but if and when DCS comes out with a new innovative whiz bang, that has an obvious benefit people will try it.

    Compare DCS's and Wayne's track record as a whole with the big red and yellow boxes in terms of support and software quality. They would have done this in a heart beat and not offered any kind of compensation.

    Finally for the track record, I hold one TDS-3 license I've had for almost 3 years, and a 2nd TDS-3 license, that I've had for about 2 months. I still am glad Wayne took this step.

    Pete
     
  23. tutankamon

    tutankamon Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Posts:
    170
    Location:
    Lancashire U.K.
    Let`s thank Wayne

    Hi all, tut here, I have read most of the posts in the TDS3 discontinued thread, one or two members / guests seem to be giving Wayne and DCS a hard time over his decision. Don`t forget the FREE programs, stemming from the development of what was TDS4, plus the offer of free registrations for other DCS programs, not to mention a future `super duper` program from Wayne in the future, (perhaps those of us who already have purchased Wormguard and Port Explorer could qualify for a discount on this program? ) I am disappointed that TDS3 updates are finished, I am also disappointed that I did not win the National Lottery last Saturday, I am disappointed that it is always cloudy in the U.K. when I want to see the sky at night with my giant binoculars. BUT we have to live with disappointment. Let`s thank Wayne / DCS for what they have done for us, and look forward to the next generation of programs. :)
    So thanks, Wayne!
     
  24. dog

    dog Guest

    Re: Let`s thank Wayne

    As it stands right now, current license holders would get a member discount based on purchases, check your member area to see the discount you are entitled to. That doesn't mean that, that current discount would continue with DCS new direction/products ... but I'd safely guess that it would.

    Steve
     
  25. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Posts:
    4,228
    Location:
    US
    Bingo.

    Acadia
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2005
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.