How do you boil a frog ?

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by Long View, Oct 26, 2007.

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  1. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    Answer - put the frog in a pan of cold water and turn the heat up slowly.
    Apparently the frog won't notice.

    For some time now I have run my pc's with only a firewall and Firefox to protect me - no real time programs, no HIPS, no software firewall, no AV , No AS.

    Just read an article praising Spyware Doctor so with Returnil turned on I loaded the program and ran it. I wasn't surprised that it found nothing wrong ( have yet to find an Av or AS or rookit that can find a problem) But what did surprise me was just how much slower everything ran. One program that would load in 6 seconds the first time and 3 seconds thereafter took 12 seconds the first time and 8 thereafter. Outlook took for ever to load.

    Yes I know some programs are lighter than others but all will have some impact. I can only imaging that adding more layers of real time protection will make the situation worse - so a quick reboot and everything was back to normal.

    So just like a frog I suspect that many ( looking at the bloated signatures) are really having to buy new machines just to provide the necessary power to run programs which may not really be necessary anyway.
     
  2. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    I have cut back on security apps. also, and know I have gained loading times by replacing bloat-for-open-source. I have also cut back a lot of Windows services. Loading times are quicker and ram usage is at a minimum, but I am also a safe-surfer. I would not take my current set-up to the "dark-side", but suspect that those with large signatures do!
    P.S.;put a lid on the frog-pot, they are spooked easily and jump because of movement and eye-contact.
     
  3. Meriadoc

    Meriadoc Registered Member

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    lol

    One of the reasons why I don't run antivirus, I cant stand how they slow a system.
     
  4. steve161

    steve161 Registered Member

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    Count me in as one who did not feel the water getting hotter. The one exception was real-time AS's. The slowdown was noticeable on my comp.
     
  5. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    I was another. Ran AV/AS for so long didn't notice how much of an effect it was until I took them off. Disabling doesn't accomplish the same thing.
     
  6. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    I used to run several AS/AT's, but found the AV was the only one I needed. Lots of downloads and a couple of teenaged-daughters, you know. When it was just me I only had an AV as an on-demand scanner and a firewall. When the girls are gone in a few years, I'll probably just use on-demand AV and the router. And Windows 7...
     
  7. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    Returnil works for teenage daughters, sons, wives, and friends who just can't resist loading the latest cat chasing a dog screen saver.

    By the way I consider your suggestion that I put a lid on the pot as yet another example of excessive and totally unnecessary security. You'll be suggesting next that I cook the frog in a locked/hidden room just in case something bad gets into the house and contaminates my frog.
     
  8. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    No. I used to catch frogs. If you make eye-contact with them, any sudden movements will make them jump. So if you don't go near the pot while the water is heating, you won't need the lid. But if you get curious and look, you'll startle the frog.
    P.S.;the legs really do taste like chicken!!!
     
  9. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Hello,
    Indeed, one of the reasons why not to use 300 layers of everything.
    First, it will cripple the machine. Second, no need, simpler solutions are available.
    Mrk
     
  10. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    The same here. At this moment, I'm asking myself why I need :
    1. A firewall, when I have already a router.
    2. Anti-Executable, which only protects my system partition between two reboots and this one certainly slows down my computer.
    3. DefenseWall, which only protects my system partition and supports my browser.
    My system partition recovers itself during each reboot and removes any infection.
    So why do I need these 3 security softwares, maybe I can live without them. I wished I had this vision sooner.
    Why didn't I see the Light 3 years back ? :)
     
  11. sukarof

    sukarof Registered Member

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    Interesting question. I have never had my computers without at least AV, I might uninstall it just to see how it goes.
    But I noticed after I ditched all the HIPS and other antimalware stuff and went for LUA, the speed of loading apps and general speed of the computer is much faster. When I used the other security software I didnt think my computer was slower but I can clearly see the difference now. So the boiling frog analogy isn't that far fetched, for me at least...
     
  12. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    The pot will do better if you season it with Linux salt:D :D :D
     
  13. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    And maybe a little "Apple-butter"... :D :D :D
     
  14. Dogbiscuit

    Dogbiscuit Guest

    I just add limited user accounts, which don't slow down my system any.
     
  15. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    I ran limited for a while but this was on an existing system and there were one or two minor irritations. I'm sure that on a clean install things would have been better. Certainly limited user gives a great deal of protection for very little overhead. I think though that probably the main reason I reverted to admin is lack of motivation. Forgetting about the odd stale cookie I have never, never seen a virus nor downloaded any spyware. On a regular basis I load up A/S and A/V programs and run them and nothing. Well nothing is not quite true. Occasionally a program will show up a problem. I report it to the company and they come back with sorry - false positive now fixed. It really is difficult to get motivated to load up a program when it does nothing. I have installed HIPS and waited patiently - nothing.

    For my kind of surfing and good hardware firewall and Firefox seems to be enough. Limited would help if something bad ever did get in but I don't see how I'm going to let anything bad in.
     
  16. ccsito

    ccsito Registered Member

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    I have a system that just has a firewall without anything else. It hasn't been infected (but then I don't use it that often), so a lot depends on where you surf to. You may never get infected with rudimentary or no defenses and you may be bombarded with malware with a huge boatload of defenses. A lot depends on how you use the PC. I guess I am of the same school that there are safety in large numbers. I hope to get by with minimal security and hope that the bad guys bypass me. :cool:

    BTW, I am not one to buy a new system in order to be able to run a new set of software. If the software isn't compatible with my system, I just don't use them. A frog is poikilothermic and reacts to changes in temperatures very slowly if at all. I may be like a frog with respect to PC technology. I am always behind on the current trends, but that is because my knowledge base comes from the 1980's.:D
     
  17. GrailVanGogh

    GrailVanGogh Registered Member

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    No real time AV running and only Spybot & ZAP v4.5.

    No problems and my system is nice and fast.

    Common sense goes a long way towards computer security IMO.
     
  18. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    I'm going to try the frogpot in practice, because I have two computers in one computer :

    1. An off-line computer + data partition, which has the very best security in the world : NO INTERNET.
    That is where I do all my work and hobbies. This is also my fastest computer, because there is NO SECURITY.
    So this is already an extreme form of the frogpot and is in fact the opposite of the honeypot.

    2. An on-line computer + data partition, which is the black sheep in my system, but :
    - during each reboot, every change is removed automatically.
    - the data partition is constantly locked : no reading, no writing, no stealing, which makes any malware/hacker powerless.

    I will start with removing "Anti-Executable", which scans my on-line snapshot constantly to protect it against unauthorized executables and that makes any action slower on my computer.

    Suppose an unauthorized executable installs itself in my on-line snapshot. Let's see how serious this can be :
    1. It can't do anything in my LOCKED data partition.
    2. It can't do any stealing, because there is nothing to steal in my system partition.
    3. It can only damage my system partition and I see only 2 kinds of damages :
    - damages that can be recovered during reboot (boot-to-restore), that's easy.
    - damages that corrupt FDISR, which can be recovered by restoring a clean image.
    In other words, whatever damage it is, it can be recovered completely.

    This must be very frustrating for the Malware World : trying to infiltrate in my system, coming back the next day and find out that all their preparation is destroyed and neutralized like cats by ... a newbie with the I.Q. of a monkey.
    This must be an insult for their intelligence, including A.I. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2007
  19. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    Is that ito_O Take it all off Erik...
    (that just sounds so-o-o-o wrong:shifty: )
     
  20. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    No that's not it, that's just the beginning, but I won't ditch my Forecastfox extension. :)
     
  21. 19monty64

    19monty64 Registered Member

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    lol that's my favorite FF-extension too lol:D
     
  22. lucas1985

    lucas1985 Retired Moderator

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    Keyword: realtime. On-demand is a different thing.
     
  23. screamer

    screamer Registered Member

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    I'm a firm believer in security software and have too fallen into the frog conundrum. I really believe it's a balance one has to make based on the type of activity you seek (personally I love FeFe LaRue) and the hit on resources you're willing to take for this adventure. I've slimmed down my security apps since joining PINOSS
    The last app I ditched was Spyware Doctor, and Ohh what a faster machine I have for it.


    ...screamer
     
  24. EASTER

    EASTER Registered Member

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    I confess that i too fell victim to security-ware overload, in my case doubling up HIPS with SSM, and at one point running 2 firewalls, Kerio 2.15 + Comodo at the time as well as throwing in CyberHawk for good measure then shadowing them all with Power Shadow plus SAS for occasional On-Demand scans.

    My new much more performance efficient and light but STRONGER shieldings now come on the order of Kerio 2.15, PC Security, SandboxIE, with Returnil or Power Shadow for virtual coverages over my FD-ISR snapshots.

    EQSecure IMO is about as worry-free & light a HIPS as they come plus i have Tweaked it's settings substantially increasing protection with absolutely no additional CPU or memory useage build-up and all is quiet once again on the home front, even when plowing headlong into potential malware laced sites for the occasional reaping of those latest stupid malwares that my HIPS suspend in mid-air so i can easily collect them up and store them in a Locked chamber for research & submission purposes.

    The only fear i have to concern about now is if/when Windows itself does something radically frustrating which is been a sore spot for me a long time.

    That security array may appear a bit overdone by some, but so far this layered shield of guards is amazingly formidable and oh joy! how very light in the system now in comparison to before.

    Also EQSecure can take up those extensions ScriptSentry can't cover, and since ScriptDefender needs an update.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2007
  25. Thiggy

    Thiggy Registered Member

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    Run NOD32, SuperAntiSpyware Pro and ProSecurity beta2 all realtime and do not have any slowdown on a 2.8G XP Pro system with 1G RAM; none, zero zilch. Wired router serves as a firewall.
     
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