HDM 12 Suite

Probably I got confused by the terminology too as I do not recall Ghost having incremental imaging at all. I only tried it for a day and then uninstalled it. I did not do use the automated backup set. One way to find out if they are differentials or incrementals is to look at the size of the increments. If they keep on increasing then they are differentials. or take one manually right after the automatic one, if it is incremental it would be small.

I am not sure Paragon is going to add incremental imaging to its products soon. If they had wanted to they would have already.

Paragon did have the ability to do chains when I used it. It was called a cyclic backup and it automatically made 1 full and the rest differentials and you had the ability to tell it to delete the older set before it started the new one. I think they still have that cyclic backup in HDM 2012.

I never used NAS storage with Paragon, so cannot comment on that aspect of it.

 

Yes, in the Pro version.

 

I had taken a look at this already but didn't come up with an answer. I'm running Ghost on a WinXP machine I use as a "server," so nothing much changes on it very often. Because of this it was difficult to determine if subsequent backups in a "chain" were incremental/differential for sure.

Agreed. Especially seeing as I've watched for this for three releases now. I'd probably ought to just give up on Paragon if this continues to be a "must have" for me.

True, as posted by @Robin A. There was something about it that didn't work for me though... I can't remember what it was - possibly only as simple as it'd only work with differential and not incremental sets. It seems there was something more though -- maybe it won't allow you to image the MBR and/or "special Win7 partition" (whatever it's called) like ATIH does (when ATIH works at all I mean)? But in pulling up the HDM12Pro manual just now the screen shot on pg. 155 seems to indicate otherwise. I don't like that a cyclic backup can only handle one partition at a time, but that in and of itself wouldn't be a deal killer.

Maybe I need to just "give in" on the inc/diff issue. I prefer incrementals so my computer isn't tied up for so long every few days (I image 2 terabytes worth of hard drives and it's slower since I save the image to a NAS device). Since I rarely need to utilize an image, the fact that restoring from an incremental set is much slower isn't a big deal to me. Also, in the past and when I do it again when I buy a blu-ray writer, saving images to optical media was better with incrementals due to the space available.

I will need to look further into the issue I had with the NAS if I decide to "give in" to the inc/diff thing. I only played with it for 10 mins so, though it most certainly didn't look promising. (It appears the user is forced to map a network drive. (Per the manual - I didn't try it.) I'd much rather use an IP address directly.) But I gave up on it more quickly than I would have if it were the ONLY reason for making a determination that HDM12 isn't "the one."

OH HERE IT IS... Here's the biggest sore spot for me with regard to cyclic backups. From Pg 157 of the HDM12pro manual:

I bolded the last sentence to indicate my point. This sounds to me like a differential cyclic backup will only allow for a single base. So, if create a cyclic backup on 1 Jan 2011 differentials created even a year later will be taken off that year old base. Who would ever want THAT? At some point you either want to put old bases into deep archive or delete them.

So, I still don't see a way to, say, create a base image on the first day of each month followed by a differential to that base every Tue and Fri. THEN create a new base on the first day of following month, followed by differentials to that base every Tue and Fri. Then, on the first day of the third month create a new base - and after it is created and verified, delete the base and all differentials for the first month. This would keep a true "set it and forget it" backup scheme going forever, in theory, without having your last base be more than a month old and without filling up your destination location thus requiring manual intervention.

I realize there are ways to do this with scripting, but I don't want to bother with that. This doesn't seem to be too much to ask of an imaging program which also touts itself as a backup solution - ESPECIALLY at a $100 price point.

 

Perhaps you should really download the Symantec GHOST 15.1 trial.


All people are looking for here and are complaining about linked to Paragon or Acronis is well implemented in Ghost 15.1 and it is working unintrusively.

Offsitecopy (NAS, FTP and USB as you like combine them...), small 'incremantals', superb scheduling.

 

@Gorkster,

One possible way you can check whether the Ghost images are incrementals or differentials is to delete one from the chain and then try to restore the chain. If they are incrementals the restore will fail.

If you really have 2 TB of data to be backed up then it makes sense to use the backup utility that can do fast incrementals. I think you will be better served by getting Shadowprotect, if you can bear the high cost, real time sector tracking and usual activation related problems.

As far as the NAS problem is concerned, I am sure if you work on it Paragon will be able to see the NAS. As I mentioned, I never used this myself so I can not say for sure.

The cyclic backup deals with sets and each set has its own base image. You can choose to remove the entire set, base+differentials, or you can choose to remove the differentials only while keeping the base. The second option does not make sense to me, but they do give it as an option. When I used it, I used to remove the complete older set. If you need help in this I can help you out as I have extensively used this feature with Paragon.

$100 is for HDM pro. It contains a backup utility, a partition manager, defrag tool and other hard drive tools. If you just need a backup utility you have to go for their backup line, which used to be called drive backup. As I mentioned earlier that it is unfair to compare Macrium and Shadowprotect with Paragon HDM, as HDM has far more functionality then these backup only utilities.

 

I mentioned somewhere here to @SIW2 to do a test with Paragon HDM 12 with VSS backup and see if your windows history is still there after restore.

Well, I had some time yesterday so I downloaded HDM 12 suite. I checked and made sure I had windows updates history on my system, it displayed a list of all the updates I had installed and times at which I installed them. I then did a full backup from inside windows using VSS as the hot processing option. Then I restored the backup and went to check my windows update history and the same problem! No update history! Where it was supposed to list the history it listed that windows updates had never been run on this system.

This was one of the reasons I stopped using paragon back in 2009. Can somebody check and see if this happens on their systems as well or has Paragon taken a personal liking to me.

 

If this was for me, I have used Ghost extensively in the past - only up through v14 though when I finally left them due to problems with the software among other issues. I have considered trying v16 when it comes out, but really I'd prefer to steer away from all things Symantec anymore.

True, very true. I don't think I'm curious enough to do that though! If it continues to bug me I'll set something up on a virtual machine.

Shadowprotect is on my list, but I don't like a few things about it. First, lack of file system support, comparatively speaking. Second, I don't like how you must either install the program or the DLL on any drive you back up - I do NOT like how it runs in the background constantly keeping track of changes. Yeah, it makes it faster to run a backup, but at a daily CPU cost I'm not willing to fork over. I think those were my biggest problems with Shadowprotect.

There was nowhere I could see that would allow you to input the IP address directly to connect to a NAS device.

I saw all these choices, but I did not see a way to automatically, through the GUI (not using scripting), start a new base image once every month (for instance) or once every X differentials. I only saw where you could start a base then perform differential imaging off that base, deleting old differentials if desired. Am I wrong? I see that you can manually remove a set (base + differentials) but I didn't see how to have this done automagically. For instance, where HDM would create a new base on Jan 1 followed by differentials, then a new base on Feb 1 followed by differentials, then a new base on Mar 1 followed by differentials, then delete the base created on Jan 1 along with its corresponding differentials. I know you can set this up through scripting, but I did not see a way to set it up in the GUI. Also, as I previously quoted, the manual seems to indicate the program won't do this. If you're sure I'm incorrect I could try again though... Maybe I missed something?

I do realize the difference between the the backup utility software and the drive "imaging" software, so I probably used the wrong dollar amount. Even so, I'd imagine the drive imaging part of the HDM Pro software should be compared to Drive Backup 10 Workstation? And that's still a $75 price point. (I assume the home/sb versions called Backup & Recovery wouldn't support this "cyclic" option.) And even so, my main point is that I feel this capability I refer to isn't too much for the consumer to expect from software advertised as a backup solution. Now if you're paying for a $20 or even free program to simply create a drive image, that'd be different.

 

I see an option to backup to ftp server. Isn't there a option on that screen for backing up to a NAS? I checked the manual and do not mention the word NAS anywhere so it might be that Paragon is not able to backup to NAS.

See the attached image below. I believe you can do this from Paragon pro versions only. The suite versions of HDM does not have the gui based cyclic backup option. If you choose the differential type in the options shown below, then it will create one full backup and rest differentials. I forgot how this option worked, apparently you can not specify just the number of sets, you have to specify a max size too and Paragon will only delete the older set if the images size goes beyond the max size defined.

I know this is not the best way to do this, I like the Macrium and Shadowprotect way better, where you just have to specify sets, no matter how much size each set occupies.

 

As I already mentioned, there are quite a number of things I do not like in Paragon. This is why I switched to macrium about 2 years ago. The only thing going for Paragon is that it is reliable. But Macrium has not failed me even once in the last 2 years and the options it provides suits me more. I guess you just have to choose the utility that works for you.

One major thing I do not like about paragon is that with VSS as the hot processing technology, it fails to restore certain things on a restore, so it is not a 1:1 backup and restore utility. See my previous post for detail.

If you choose paragon hot processing as the technology instead of VSS, then it restores everything but unfortunately, with Paragon hot processing the backup job runs with a "realtime" priority, which is not good if you are multi-tasking at the same time as Paragon takes all the cpu resources.

 

Yeah, I'm familiar with that screen shot you posted and it's also in the manual. But the manual states "if choosing the Differential type only differential images will be overwritten." This leads me to believe the if you put "3" in that box then cyclic backup will continue to make differential images of the same base image, but delete the oldest differential and make a new one when three differentials exist - thus always making differential images only off the original base.

Anyway, not being able to create sets and define the number of sets to keep is my biggest problem with going for it. Followed by not being able to choose incremental/differential - though that might not be a deciding factor in the end. I find the "base image to file incremental" (whatever they call it) idea interesting, but for me to use that it would have to allow me to make sets just as I've described all along.

I thought Paragon would let you do a sector copy - this would give you a 1:1 image wouldn't it?

 

No, it deals with sets. I have used it so I know what it does. If you put 3 there it will keep three sets and when the fourth is done it will delete the first one to keep three sets at a time. But it will only do so if the max size is reached, so as long as the size is not reached, it will keep on making sets and as soon as the max size is reached it will keep the last three and delete the older sets.

I know it is not a best way to go about this but this is the only option they provide you with in the gui. I think you will have to write your own script to force it do do differently.

It does. There is just a bug in it when it restores. It does not restore certain files on your drive. Like the windows update history. I just finally received a confirmation on this by a different user (@skbaltimore) so at least I am not alone. See today's posts here for the details and my response and previous history with the same bug.

 

I make multiple backups to both HDD and flash drives (and DVDs). I can get 1 full image b/u, and 6 or 7 differential b/u's on a 16GB flash drive. I could never get 6 or 7 full image b/u's on a 16GB flash drive. So that's the reason I use the diff b/u's. And they take around 14 minutes for my 63GB "C" drive, which is fine with me. I've found that I'm much more inclined to make the diff backups even after seemingly small system changes, and it gives me more options than when I'd only make weekly (or less) full image backups. (And sometimes those "small" system changes turn out to be bigger than I thought. Like after I installed the "Take Ownership" tweak and kinda went crazy "zapping" all the locked folders. I had done a diff b/u before I started zapping the folders, then very shortly afterwards, I decided to take a big step back in time and restore from the previous diff b/u.)

When I used IFW/IFD, I always did full image backups, and was satisfied. I never got the big deal about differential backups. But after using Paragon 11 for a month or so, I've found the differential option to be quite handy and useful.

 

Oh...so the workaround for keeping the Windows update history is to select Paragon hot processing, vs VSS? I didn't know that. I'll give it a try. UPDATE: I just checked in the options section, and there is no "Paragon hot processing" option. There's either VSS Hot Processing to check, or nothing. (The drop down menu is greyed out, and VSS is automatically selected.) I'm using HDM 11 Suite.

Now...whenever I do a system backup, I never touch the laptop. So in terms of the time it takes (for me, with a 64GB "C" drive and about 18GB on it), I can do a full b/u in around 14 minutes, using VSS. Would it be the same using Paragon's hot processing?

And as far as compression goes, I've always used standard compression, dating back to IFW/IFD days. Does anyone use a higher compression rate, and does it affect reliability?

TIA

 

I do not know why this is; they include Paragon hot processing in all of there products. I just installed a trial version of HDM suite 12 yesterday and it had both options. Maybe something is wrong with your install, can you try reinstalling the product that might fix the issue.

By the way, you know that paragon HDM 12 is out and is a free update if you recently bought HDM.

Since Paragon hot processing always runs in "real time" priority so it is slightly faster than VSS. However, that is another sad story that it runs in real time processing. See my complaint here dated Oct 2009. The process is "scripts.exe" if it runs from a schedule otherwise it is "launcher.exe". You can see it in the task manager and check its PCU priority. Needless to say Paragon duly ignored that complain also and the bug is still present in HDM 12.

 

I just got Suite 12 today. If I install 12, should I uninstall 11 first, or just install 12 over 11?

(Maybe the problem with the Paragon Hot Processing being greyed out is related to the "Archives" options being greyed out as well. I didn't get any errors when I first installed Paragon 11, but something doesn't seem to be completely right.)

BTW -- thanks for your help.

 

OK...I figured it out. During the normal install, the HotCore Driver is X'd out. (The explanation for it seemed to indicate that it's recommended for Win 2000; no mention of Win 7.) I did a modification of the original install and included the HotCore Driver, and now the Paragon Hot Process option is available.

 

I think you should uninstall paragon 11 and do a fresh install of HDM 12. The hot processing should not be greyed out. The fresh install should at least fix this problem.

 

You beat me by a few second with your last post. The hotcore.sys is a driver for windows 2000 I think. It should not have been responsible for paragon hot processing being greyed out. I think a simple reinstall did the trick for you. Let me check this for you.......

 

Okay, you are right. The hotcore.sys driver is the cause of PHP being greyed out. I just installed and tested it using HDM 12. Without hotcore.sys you only have VSS option available.

 

I think I also solved the problem of "Archives" being greyed out. Apparently, I'd never clicked on the "Archives" tab in the right side window that has:

Disk View/Scheduled Tasks/Archives/Help.

Once I did, I saw the options to select certain archives and add them to the archive data base. Once I did THAT...THEN the "Archives" at the top of the menu bar are no longer greyed out.

What a night.

 

Next question...when I select Paragon Hot Processing, it mentions Win NT, 2000, XP, and 2003. But there's no mention of Win 7. Is it okay/safe to make a backup on a Win 7 Pro 32-bit system using Paragon Hot Processing? (I would think it is, but I'm just double checking.) If so, I'll do a diff b/u using Paragon Hot Processing instead of VSS, then a restore, and see if that solves the disappearing Windows Updates on my system.

(Also: Is HDM 12 really an improvement over HDM 11?)

 

It should be safe as PHP is not a snapshot based hot processing technology. It is done by using a kernel level driver (hotcore.sys). I used it with HDM 2009 and Vista and it worked fine. It should work fine on win 7 as well. Paragon does not recommend it nowadays as VSS has made it irrelevant.

The windows update disappearing problem will not happen with PHP. I have checked this multiple times. However, while the backup is running look under the task manager the process that is doing the backup, it will be running with realtime cpu priority.

I have not used any paragon version extensively since HDM 2009, so can not answer whether HDM 12 is better than HDM 11.

 

Well...that didn't go too well.

Using Paragon Hot Processing caused the program to lock up at 6%. The cursor turned into a spinning blue circle, and I wasn't able to cancel, only click the "x" of the window box. A message came up, stating that a part of the program had stopped working:

APPCRASH
launcher.exe Paragon Utilities.

Apparently, using Paragon Hot Processing will not work on my system. (So I'm stuck with losing the Windows Update History.)

One other note: Apparently, after a restore, MSE ends up with a corrupted file:

C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Microsoft Security Client\Support\EppOobe.etl.

The fix is to delete that file, and reboot. MSE will recreate the file, and the error will no longer appear. (This is another one of those "What sort of things is a Paragon restore doing to the system?")

But the evening wasn't a total loss. At least I no longer have "Archives" greyed out. Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know what, if anything, Paragon says about the deleted Windows Update history.

 

I do not know what could be the problem. Are you on 64 bit windows? As I always used it with 32 bit. Since it is a driver maybe it does not work with 64 bit windows 7. Perhaps this is why Paragon has made the driver optional. As I mentioned I never used HDM 11 or HDM 12 extensively.

I guess, you will have to wait for a resolution of VSS. I do not think they will resolve it anytime soon. Maybe in version 13, next year. In any case, getting them to just acknowledge the bug will be a miracle enough.

 

I'm running Win 7 Pro, 32 bit.