Going to have a shot at self-assembly...

Hi Sully

I'm glad you've bonded with your new case and that you're enjoying your build!

I went to a mega-PC World today, to look at some cases (they had 3), to look at the non-touch-screen desktops (they had 6) and to ask some questions. Hopeless! It just made me even more determined to do my own build, even if if I blow myself up and the dog ends up covered in thermal paste...

Anyway, the difficulty here is not being able to see any cases at all in the flesh up close...

I've thought a bit about what really matters with the case and that is:

-effective, very quiet airflow (with properly filtered intakes) - I'm going to be sitting right next to this thing
-removable hard drive cages (I'll only need space for 2 x SSD and maybe 1 x mechanical)
-front USB3 ports that plug directly to the board
-a grown up and boring (aka elegant) look

The Z60 seems to satisfy all of the above, except that the hdd cages can't be removed, can they? I know you'll advise some nifty modding here, but please remember I am ranked about 94 billionth in the world in terms of skill with tools and general practical competence - I'm certain I'd end up drilling right through a panel...

Right now, the Z60 is an excellent contender, but it's going to be the most expensive item in the build at double what I'd allowed (it's £190 here, delivered) and now I've gone and discovered the Fractal Arc Midi, which seems extremely builder/expansion friendly and does exactly what I need for £90 delivered - meaning I wouldn't feel so bad about laying out more money to get a couple of 'quiet' ULNA (?) fans if necessary... The only downside I can see with this case is that the front panel is plastic, which is probably going to be pretty repugnant...

I'd be interested in your views on that one - I very nearly ordered it today, but will take a step back and think some more...

I know I'm over-thinking this (in the end, my wife will just ask me why it's not white) - but it's all very interesting somehow...

Cheers

philby

 

I have modded nothing other than swapping out the fans with 4pin pwm ones that have a bit higher airflow.

What I did do was to remove 6 screws on the top of the case, allowing complete access to the upper end where things are tight.

The case is so well thought out it suprised me. I was expecting to have to mod it to get all my cables tucked neatly away, especially considering the length and quality of the cables that seasonic used. This case, once you take the top off, has a lot more slots and holes that are perfectly positioned for hiding cables than I first thought, and with no modding needed thus far.

Th only thing plastic on this case is part of the front bezel for the front ports and the little latching tabs that attach the face to the case. If you have never seen a LianLi case you will appreciate just how beefy those latching tabs are compared to cheaper stuff. The whole case is pretty much aluminum, so in terms of look/durability, you won't be disappointed there. I do wish the inside of the case was anodized black as well for that money, but not a big deal as there is no window.

As far as the drive bays go, that also was one reason I wanted that case. I was not disappointed. To remove a drive, you pull the front of the case off - very easy to do. You unlock the little drive bay lock with a key, if you use it. You slide a bar down, you pull the drive out. Not much to it. The drives need this little rail screwed into either side to keep vibration etc down, but they use oversized thumbscrews, so that too is a cinch.

The only issue you will have is that the SSD area is separate from the pluggable drives, on the bottom. LianLi makes a little tray adapter that you isntall into one of the pluggable drive bays, and it allows you to then have a hot swap type connection for SSD drives as well. I plan to pick that up at some point.

If you rank removing drives as important, then this case should satisfy you. If you need to hot swap and don't want to remove the case front, you need to look at a traditional hot swap setup or something else. I did not want a case with a door, I always get irritated with those, but the ones with doors allow swapping drives without removing the cover, but also require the door to open to access cd/dvd drives, which I really dislike.

You mentioned the hdd cages cannot be removed, and that is correct. The cages themselves are riveted into place. But in this instance, the cage really plays a minimal role in things as the drives don't rely on them other than to provide a shelf to rest on, of which there are 6 for that purpose, plus the two SSD areas on the bottom.

If I had to do it over again, and I had not built this yet, I would have bought another case. However, after installing most everything, I can now happily overlook the price tag and the slightly less quality build because it does give me exactly what I was hoping it would.

Tonight I will be able to test the airflow situation. I believe now that there will be enough filters for what I need, I just have to move them around as needed for my best airflow.

BTW, I bought a Phyoba 140mm PWM fan for the top. It looks to be 25mm deep, and is the same size as the stock fan. Posed no problems at all. I was worried about it not having a grill but becaus of how clever the case is made, all of my cables can be tucked out of the way and worm thier way through some port to the backside of the mobo board, just where I wanted them. The cables are all so long it is really easy to route them the long way around and keep them hidden. I was even suprised that the little slot on the side of the case to use for cable management, that holds the cables with little clips, --- it holds the 24pin mobo cable in place without having to force it. I let my PSU cables hang for 5 days so they wouldn't be so coiled up from the packaging. I had thought they would be so stiff and have so much memory that the cable managment system on the case would be useless - pleasantly suprised on how well it works then


Sul.

EDIT: if you want to see specifics on how things actually are with hardware installed, let me know and I will get them for you to see. The hdd system is not what I imagined at all in terms of how they mount. LianLi is obviously not the only good case maker, but they do have great little features I would not have thought of, which always puts a smile on my face when I see how they did it

 

With Fractal chassis...Not sure plastic front is the way to go. Is not exactly the best conductor of heat and may be something you live to regret when overclocking...unless you went watercooled...but for air cooled systems you definitely want a full metal chassis. Extra heat will be building at the front of the case around your drives.

 

Didn't know about plastic + heat, didn't know aluminium isn't magnetic. Don't know what I was doing in Physics lessons at school...

Today, as per Sully's advice, I took apart my dusty 13 year old Vaio. Managed to remove entire CPU heatsink by mistake (was trying to remove its fan for cleaning!) and noticed the paste was uneven with gaps - so I've ordered some isopropyl alcohol to practice cleaning CPU cover / heatsink base: The pharmacist said its 70% pure - is that good enough?

I practised removing stuff and putting it back and the box still boots!

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I'd like to take the (very quiet) optical drive from this machine for use in the new build, but it's data cable is IDE, so would I just need an IDE/SATA adaptor for this? It has power leads (black, yellow, red) that run directly to the PSU - could I use those in the new build? I'm not sure though that I can get into the PSU to get them out...

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I also thought about adding a wireless PCI card to one of the available slots on this old machine's board, so my kids can mess around online - presumably I would just plug it into an available slot as below (are these standard PCI slots or PCI-E and does it matter?

Still thinking about that new case...

philby

 

I have used isopropyl from the pharmacy before, it worked fine. I used q-tips with the alcohol. The better thermal pastes get stiff but not dry, and q-tips alone are generally enough to clean them for me.

When applying the thermal compound, be aware that the "die" is what you want the compound on, not the entire wafer or chip. On older machines the die is sometimes not very big, on newer machines it is pretty much the whole thing. Compound needs to be (ideally) a thin film of even thickness. How thick, there are many opinions. I generally put my compound on with a razor blade, using it as a squegee or putty knife to get a nice even layer on. I don't worry too much about thickness, but you really don't need it that thick. When you get your new processor, examine it's heatsink closely. My new 2600k had a pattern of compound on the heatsink that I presume was supposed to "squish" out and around. I put my aftermarket cooler on and did my own thermal compound.

You see, it isn't that hard to actually put the hardware together. You just need to take your time, and read, and re-read. If you go slow, you stand a much better chance of not making a mistake. You need to learn some of the basic hardware terminology, it will help you immensely when trying to describe or follow directions. You will probably be more confused by the BIOS settings you need to adjust than the hardware itself.

When you get a new motherboard, you want to read the manual. The manual will help you decipher what all those extra pins and connections are. External USB ports on the case, eSATA, USB/USB3, audio, all of these have header on the board for the case cables to attach to. Some have orientations that make mistakes impossible, others don't.

When looking at cables, and not knowing the orientation, there is usually an indicator for #1, like a red wire or a mark somewhere. Looking closely at motherboards, you will see the white silkscreen printing on them. Around almost every header is a square rectangle, with one corner having a very heavy square segment, which resembles and arrow tip. This inidicates #1. So you then match the #1 parts of the connections together.

Liteon drives are noisy IMO, but they always work for me. I have been buying Samsung dvd/rw drives, as they are pretty quiet. If you want to use your drive, then yes you will need a SATA to PATA converter. (before SATA, it was just called ATA). The 4 pin power is called a 12v molex. Every PSU I have seen has one of these, even some really old boat anchors. You will have no problem with any PSU, as they all have this. Unless you have some proprietary piece of hardware with a special connection.

On old computers you might see a large and long black port, like an ovesized PCI. It is called an ISA port, and have been defunct now for a good number of years, but you can still see them on older boards. They are almost always black.

PCI ports, you are familiar with, are shorter, thinner, and almost always white.

AGP ports were normally brown, and were as thin as a PCI but longer and offset differently.

PCI-E slots are blue, but with todays boards can be about any color. They come in 2 flavors. One is long and thin, similar to an AGP slot. The other is very short, about 2inches max. Video cards typically go in the long ones, and other devices like sound/network go in the short ones. There is a technical difference between them, but it is enough to be able to identify them.

You will only be able to put a piece of hardware in its mated slot. PCI does not fit into PCI-E. AGP does not fit into PCI, etc etc. So it does make a difference, but if you have the hardware, you will most likely figure it out quickly enough. Do not confuse them when purchasing though. If you want PCI-E network card, make sure you have PCI-E slot. I can assure you, on a 13 year old machine, you most likely have PCI and ISA, and maybe a brown AGP slot at the top.

As for this case, it cools as well as a coolermaster HAF that a buddy of mine has with the same processor and mobo. He is using a Zalman heatsink, I am using a thermalright. Temps at 4.7ghz overclocked on both machines are at 62 deg C. That is a stress test temp, with everything maxxed at 100% for 15minutes. The case fans don't make as much of a difference on this build as they have on past builds. I can leave them run at about 40% speed, and they are inaudible. Increasing them cools the HDDS and a little of the ram, mch and vreg temps. If I was using the stock heatsink, the case fans might play a larger role in overall temps, but with the heatsink I have, it seems to cool everything by itself.

I end up with a case that is much quieter than my last one, and just as cool. I am actually only using the rear 120mm as intake, the top 140mm out outlet, the cpu 120mm fan which pulls air from the back across the heatsink, and only one of the side 120mm fans (the top one).

The USB2 to USB3 adapter works great. I was able to tuck everything except the power for the driives and the video card power cables out of the way. those just are not long enough to hide, but I guess it matters little without a window. Airflow is great it seems, so I shall not worry further about that.

Sul.

 

Look up 'lapping' too. Just something for you to keep in mind for maybe a few years time when you feel comfortable. I lap on systems where I want to ensure the best thermal interface for overclocking. There is an element of risk with this as it is possible to cause a total failure of the cpu...

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You can get IDE/ SATA data and power adapaters from many resellers in the UK including scan, overclockers, novotech, ccl etc.

A PSU stores very high voltage even seven weeks after being switched off and is more than enough to instantly kill you. ****CAN BE DANGEROUS TO YOU, YOUR DOG AND ANYONE ELSE AROUND***** It also invalidates the warranty on the PSU. Far, far more prudent to buy a 4-pin female molex connector plus 4 female crimp pins.

Just to add a little something on this subject. A SATA optical offers massively improved data transfer speeds.
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What Sully said re the slots (from your photo the available white slot is PCI and should work fine). The only difficulty you may come across is an IRQ conflict which is usually resolvable either by moving the card to the next slot or from within the BIOS (There is another way to alter the IRQ setting which I can't remember right now as I haven't used a similar system for a while).

Regarding the case, there is a plethora of chassis that fall within your criteria (airflow, removable hard drive cage / tray / caddy, front USB 3, a grown up look). I was gonna link to some but it's you who needs to the legwork. The only thing I will say is that you will not get better build quality than LianLi imho. I've actually got a spare LianLi mid-tower sitting empty that I bought 5-6 years ago waiting for me not to be so lazy. I did have a system inside at one point but transferred it all over to another case following an upgrade. Sorry, I'm waffling now. The point is, I wouldn't keep the case if it was no good, it would have gone on ebay. The only thing I will say about LianLi is that I personally do not believe they offer the best value (overpriced imo). Although, LianLi cannot be bettered, it can be equalled in build quality for less bucks (imo). All depends on what chassis closest meets your major and minor (unlisted) criteria.

Edit: Just remembered. The other way to resolve IRQ conflicts is from within the Device Manager in XP, which you get to via the control panel or right-clicking my computer>properties>Hardware>Device Manager

Edit: incorrect quote script placement corrected

 

This really should not be an issue with XP or newer. If it is your mobo is sorely outdated. On a new build it should be a complete non-issue.

 

It's for an upgrade on a 13-year-old machine

 

Well in that case...
I don't miss those days at all.

 

Thanks for all that further good advice...

I've decided against taking that old IDE optical from the antique Vaio! I had no idea about possible IRQ issues...and I certainly won't be tinkering with the PSU. Instead, I've ordered an Asus optical 24B3ST, SATA of course, along with the rest of the components...

I cancelled the AX850 and went for a Seasonic X-760, partly because of Sully's point earlier and partly because all the leads are labelled

The I5 2500k is coming along with the Extreme 4 board, which from reading around seems likely to be more stable than the Gen3 version.

The RAM will be 8GB of GSkill (DDR3, 1333, 1.5V) CL7 7-7-7-21. I checked the qualified boards list and I assumed these timings would be good...

In the end, I ordered the Fractal Arc - I'll try to live with the plastic and sell it on if it's no good and pick up a LL PC-9F instead - the Z60 was just too pricey here. If the fans on the Fractal turn out to be like jet engines, I was thinking of swapping them out for Noctua NF-S12B FLXs.

The boot drive will be a 128 Crucial M4 and, for the time being, I'll use an old 5400 or 7200 2.5" notebook drive for data (slower than a 3.5" but cooler and quieter?).

I also picked up a cheap NIC (TP-Link TL-WN851N) and some heatsink prep + MX-4 paste.

I've pulled all this in for £740 and am pleased that this is a few hundred cheaper than the nearest custom build equivalent I could find online here.

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions once I'm in the case - thanks again for all the help so far.

philby

 

BTW, regarding software. If your son attends school, college or university (and you can provide evidence of this) you will be a able to get a parent discount on software.

For example, MS Office Professional 2010 retails at around £350 but is available £40 student discount all legit and licensed for two machines instead of the normal one. Also discounts on Windows 7, CS5 Adobe, Kaspersky plus lots more. Visit Microsoft UK Students area and take the link to Software4Students or any of the other authorised MS partners.

The reason I suggested software4students is because they also bundle their own customised learning tools with MS Office which is not done by the other etailers (I don't think).

With Windows 7 they only provide discounted upgrade packages. This makes it difficult on a new build. But you can still buy Vista Retail cheaply (I bought several copies the other day) and then buy the student discounted Win7 which works out cheaper than buying Win7 regular route.

Good luck with your new build!!

 

Thanks cozumel

If my kids are 8 and 6, are they 'students' in any sense accepted by MS?

I have an XP Pro license that I could perhaps use as a basis for an upgrade disk - I had a look at the Win 7 Pro upgrade here but the EULA talks about school's volume licensing...?

It would be great if I could do it the way you suggest because at the moment I'm going to have to lift the retail Win 7 off my wife's laptop for the new build...

philby

 

My understanding of the educational licensing terms & conditions include students or parents of students who are of pre high school age.

Here is the Microsoft UK page that can give you all relevant information and links to their Authorised Education Resellers.

Like I said earlier the cheapest way to get the Win7 Ultimate retail package would be purchase a Vista retail pack from someone like ITC Clear and then buy the student upgrade from one of the educational resellers. Having said all that about Win7 it might still work out cheaper to buy an OEM copy at the same time as your hardware (I haven't worked out the sums) but this limits the ms license to one motherboard.

As far your kids being below high school age. They probably will not have academic email addresses (*.ac.uk) in which case you may be required to get a letter from their teacher stating they are enrolled as full-time students at whichever primary school to submit as evidence before being able to receive MS Office or any other software.

Edit: Just found this

Edit: Ooh, it works out even cheaper since you have xp retail and can do a direct OS upgrade without buying vista first!

 

OP its a very good idea. Build your own pc. If you struggle you can always take it to a pc shop for assembly. You will still save 3 to 400 usd on it

 

That's it - all done and up and running.

Just wanted to say thanks to all who advised on this.

I've learned a lot and the machine is excellent.

philby

 

Well done on taking the plunge and congrats on your new build. You're now on a downward spiral of extreme geekiness, continuous upgrading and tweeking. But its a glorious path that brings you and your family much honour lol

Enjoy sir. Enjoy...

Any chance you could post back in a couple of weeks or so with your thoughts/feedback on the ASRock please?

 

Thanks cozumel...

Regarding the Asrock, if you tell me want you want to know, I'll try and answer.

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As it happens, I cannot get the onboard Realtek HD audio to work at all - the problem persists when using 2 separate drives with separate installations of Win7.

I'm getting nothing from either the front or rear I/O (so that rules out the case's front cable?).
Drivers are apparently OK - I've tried both support CD and Asrock site. According to the Realtek audio manager, all jacks are recognised and everything is dandy, but the only jack recognised aurally is Jack ****!

I've checked HD audio is enabled in the BIOS.

Looks like I'm going to be googling sound cards...

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Also, either the case's front USB 2 cable connector is too small or the board's USB 2 header is too big - the fit is not exactly tight, unlike with the SATA connectors which seem superglued to cable connectors once attached.

VERY annoyed about the audio issue...

philby

 

I have had my share of onboard audio issues over the years.

First thing is first. Go to the manufacturers website and get a driver there. Mobo makers sometimes pack thier own, or used to, and getting one from realtek might work.

Second, examine device manager closely to see if there are any conflicts. There should not be, but you never know.

Third, make sure volumes are up. They have changed in win7 from what we have seen for other versions, you might have missed something there.

Fourth, try auto jack sensing both on and off.

I had a nasty issue with audio on a gigabyte board once. I cannot recall now what it was, but a reinstall fixed it up nicely. You are freshly installed, did you make images? If so, and you are not too far along, you could go back to a clean slate, and add the sound drivers just after the chipset drivers.

There are other methods, like disabling bios options like 1394 and printer/com ports etc, but those were generally used when you had IRQ conflicts. You are likely not the only one with this issue if it is really an issue and not a strang config problem.

Sul.

EDIT: I also remember that in the past, sometimes sound drivers and video drivers did not live well together. I seen that on gainward geforce 2 cards and creative and via audio chips. Might not be the solution, but one you could try. Uninstall the video driver, see what happens maybe.

 

Hi Sully

I've tried your suggestions except for getting Realtek's own driver and turning auto jack sensing off.

I don't seem to be able to do the js disabling - I went here but I don't have that yellow folder! I only have 'Device Advanced Settings' which doesn't offer the js disabling option...

I'll try going to Realtek...

Thanks

philby

EDIT: added forgotten link...

 

Is the audio turned on via the control panel? (I've forgotten this myself before).

Also do the rear speakers work if front audio cable disonnected

In bios, I think onboard HD audio should be either auto or enable. HDMI audio disabled.

Re USB header, not all cases and mobos have headers that match properly. Not all manufacturers use standard plug / pin config. Does the USB work though via header?

Edit: Just checked & Bios revision does not contain update or fixes for audio so nothing that can help you there...

 

Audio is on in CPL.

Rears don't work with front disconnected.

Just disabled HDMI audio now - problem persists.

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Re. USB headers; understood!
Yes, the USB works.

EDIT: Just tried R2.65 from Realtek here - no change!

 

I would be tempted to try a complete re-install as Sully said above if a realtek download does not work.

It might be good to do a minimal install. No peripherals connected. Just the one hard drive. one ram module. No malware protection except windows firewall during ms update and then disconnect router and optical drive after updates and latest drivers. A real basic configuration with just basic drivers for chipset, graphics and sound. And then check audio again to see if something in peripherals or other devices is causing problem for you.

vic

 

There is also another audio setting which I missed in your bios above the hdmi audio setting. There should be a config called on/off setting which is set to enabled by default. Change this to disabled save and reboot. This shouldn't really make a difference for your config but since it is part of the audio playback settings it might be a factor and worth a punt.

Vic

 

Looks like I'm heading that way - but while the Samsung has the OEM Win32 bit install, the M4 is a fresh install and has presented this issue from the get-go.

I've read around a bit and it seems I'm not the only one with this problem among P67, Z58 and Z68 owners...

You did indeed warn me about choosing a board carefully many, many posts ago, if I recall

 

This is one of those stupid, "Is your device plugged in" -kind of questions, but here goes: can you verify if the hardware (speakers, headphones) you are trying to install works?

If you can and it works on an another machine, and you can't find solutions here, I'd RMA the motherboard. There could be something else wrong too.