Emsioft Anti-Malware Makes Folders In My Documents

It's not so much about harm, it's more about taking away the control of your computer. If someone only has a half dozen applications installed then I don't really see this as much of an issue, but when someone uses a computer, say for personal and business use and has a lot of programs installed then that My Documents directory can really start getting cluttered with mess. So a part of this is about 'Control', 'Organization' and then the latter proper Security Standards being adhered to. A real simple point of the Security Standard, if something for security related issues were in User-Space, this is easier for a hacker to get at and use to their advantage, but in proper /Root Admin-Space they need to gain those rights. So placing anything in User-Space security related, this is the biggest flaw going on here.


Now that was a funny reply you made without even realizing what you've done.

The TRUTH is Emsisoft is the one imposing their views on you, I'm just the one bringing it to LIGHT and you think I'm the one imposing my views when you do not know how your system was meant to work. Also they are not giving you the best security related options by only placing security related items in user-space, BAD!

I'm not the bad guy Emsisoft is, I'm just the one trying to point it out for your benefit and you bark at me for your ignorance.

Don't bark at me, go learn who the real bad guy is.

P.S. Let's also PLEASE keep this on topic and not start a flame war back and forth or the topic is going to get closed. THANKS

 

theyre not imposing any view on me, ur saying that its against the users rights and shouldnt be allowed, i dont feel that way, i feel it makes sense to put it where it is

and its not a security risk, logs won't help a virus infect ur system, emsisoft can continue putting its logs into my documents, it makes sense to me, so i dont feel offended or that theyve taken away my control, because remember, i can simply get rid of their software in the case that i did feel that way, see, im still in full control. logs dont hijack a system...

i dont think emsisoft trying to accomodate LUA users better makes them the "bad" guys nor does having the logs easily accesbile to the user...and u havent brought anything to light really since there's no issue in my view

 

Microsoft and Windows Developers can certainly choose their own way in which to do things and so can users. There is always that freedom to choose to do it anyway you like.

But there are also computing standards that most have followed and adopted from one another and stick to it, because it makes sense and it's in everyone's best interest to do so.

Many end-users don't understand this and in the Windows world these types of Standards are being raped badly. The simplest thing to think here is, doesn't the end-user want what's the best and safest method available to them?

Here's a nice article I found that might help shed some light;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Documents

'My Documents' is your personal folder, not someone else's or actually for any application to write to, but of course nowadays people have stepped over this standard and dump into it.

The thing here is that on a personal one to one level that is one thing, but I'm talking about all end-users as a whole and that's the bigger issue. Sorry I see when I made the post it looked like just me and my concerns only.

For all End-Users the world over this is not a good approach that is being stepped on, Standards must be maintained that Microsoft adopted because if not, one day, you're not going to have much control over anything anymore!

One thing I highly suggest is for anyone that loves computing and wants to learn another OS to get into Unix or Linux and you'll see more here on what I'm talking about and how well Unix/Linux has maintained this Standard and because of it maintained better system security and stability.

 

I think it's called be overly paranoid/perfectionist on some details
And i'm not an exception I'm extremely picky on some aspects i think are important and can get to being obsessive oh well

 

hmm, i dont think those "standards" have been updated cuz ill list to u all the software that has made a folder or a document in "my documents' folder currently:

Logitech Sepoint
Drivereasy
microsoft (a specific folder called microsoft, dont u think the OS maker would be the one creating the standard for its OS?)
Microsoft OneNote
Seesmic
Starcraft 2
TMnationsforever
wondershare video converter
battlefield bad company 2
Civilization 5

if its such a standard that must be strictly adhered to, how come ALL those software vendors create folders in "my documents"? its because, the folders they create their, are USER files, files that pertain to the user at hand and the details of his particular actions

for example, wondershare puts MY converted videos into its "my documents" folder because its converted the videos i want and wants them available to me since its my file

battlefield puts MY particular game settings into MY documents as well because those files are based on what I want and choose and its the same for all of the games i have, they create folders there because its storing the users files (not files that the game needs to function)

drivereasy has a folder to show me MY drivers with logs for them so i know what drivers I have etc

OneNote puts the notes from my classes into here as well because JUST like each of the other programswith folders there, these are MY documents for MY viewing because they have information that is about ME and MY choices

Seesmic (a social network client) stores data and logs about MY information and MY data for ME to access and for the program to use specifically for ME

Setpont stores MY macros here as well because those are macros I have created for MY use, its not essential for the programs function, it is simply a preference thats for me specifically and lets me see what i have created

i dont know if anyone else is noticing a trend here, but the files and folders that go into the "MY documents" folder ALL are about files that are for the USER and about the USER, not for the program to work

 

If this standard I'm not aware of means writing everything to %Program Files% then you are correct, I'm not aware of it, mainly because it isn't true.

OK, I've already said this twice, as a limited user you have no write privileges to %Program Files%. An application that does this forces the user to run as admin or set up write privileges for the limited user to a directory he isn't supposed to have write privileges for. Running as admin is not safer! Is this so hard to grasp? Besides that, these are just logs, text files, for God's sake.

If that's true then you need to brush up on user account privileges.

 

Well you're truly missing all this and maybe you have like what 3 applications installed on your system? Because if you truly had a lot installed then you'd at least see the downside to this with all the extra folders being created cluttering up your My Documents folder, that's one problem.

Also since you don't understand OS Standards as it relates to Security, applications are not suppose to write to User-Space. But some how over time this has been getting raped and developers left and right are violating this by placing all sorts of things in there...

So let me make it CLEAR here, applications are not suppose to install or write to User-Space!

If you've used Unix/Linux or Apple then you'd know what I'm talking about here, because this is the typical behavior in those systems that applications don't violate the user-space on those systems either, it's only the occasional off the wall developer that might. So in Windows in the past it was the same, but for some reason over the past 5-10 years it's been dying out and developers are just dropping all sorts of things into My Documents now.

Gimp for Windows is a great example of just dropping crap into your My Documents directory that doesn't need to be there for no reason at all.

 

I believe firzen explained this pretty well in his posting above. If anyone doesn't understand OS security it's you. For the fourth time now, A LIMITED USER CANNOT WRITE TO PROGRAM FILES.

I have used Linux distros and I have an IPCop firewall as a gateway. Here's an example of the Firefox profile from Mozilla:

Please note the last sentence:
The tilde character (~) refers to the current user's Home folder, so ~/Library is the /Macintosh HD/Users/<username>/Library folder.

 

DasFox, with respect you need to quit while you're behind. You are wrong on so many things you state. If you want to go pick a fight, start with Microsoft, who's OneNote application (ships with Office) creates the folder "OneNote Notebooks" in My Documents.

If they don't give a stuff about the so called 'standard' you keep quoting, then perhaps the standard is no longer relevant or useful in todays world.

 

Fight with Cyberlink too. CyberLink PowerDVD 10 create "CyberLink" folder in My Documents.
Also fight with Google as Google Chrome make "Downloads" folder in My Documents.

 

Do not put your personal data into "My Documents", because too many software treat it like their documents folder, i gave up "My Documents" long ago already, i just simply created another folder for my personal stuffs.

Regards
southcat

 

Dasfox has a valid point he wants to bring up but his reasoning and explanation may not be the rightest of all....especially in regards to 'security' terms. That's why there exist this gap of thinking between the rest of you guys with him.

First of all, this is a matter of preference. It is a matter of how you view what the "My Documents" directory is meant for. For example, I am one of those type of people that would prefer most of my apps to place their log files, application data, etc (whatever you can think of) in somewhere else other than the "My Documents" directory. Usually, I would prefer them to place it under the "AppData" directory. However, there do exist exception such as output user files that I'm more keen on accessing (read/write) in my day-to-day usage of my PC such such as word documents, notes, music/video files, etc. But then again, my music/video files usually end up in my "Music" or "Videos" directory respectively or "Libraries" if you are using Windows Vista/7.

That is because, in my eyes, the "My Documents" directory is meant as a central place for files/folders that I create with my explicit permission, not ones that come from other programs 'deciding' for me that it should be placed there. It just comes with a mindset of being organized or what others may call 'clean' or 'perfectionist'. I don't wish to see most of my software using my "My Documents" directory as a dumping ground...

At the very least, software developers can help by giving the end user the choice or option that's clearly visible during the installation process. Otherwise, provide it as an option within the program GUI itself that allows the end user to set where the output files go to....even after the program have 'decided' beforehand to place it under "My Documents" directory.


In this case, Emsisoft has been 'fair' by providing the option within the registry but not every one of its users may be aware of it. And not everyone is comfortable with editing the registry (I am fine with that but most home users I know don't) Thus, it might have been 'better' if they could provide it within the program GUI itself or during the installation process. This may not be much of a problem for most users but there do exist a certain group of users that are bothered over such 'trivial matters'..

This is what Dasfox is trying to point out when he says "standards" and "respecting user rights". It's a 'standard' for him and for some others. Unfortunately, in ultimate defense, he brought up the topic of "OS standards" which leads this discussion to go sideways from the main objective itself.

Apparently, a few members here brought up the concept of "a limited user account can't write to program files"...which I am familiar with since I'm running under LUA myself. And that's a valid point indeed. One that Dasfox fail to understand...what more with his eagerness to reiterate his point. So, spare him the bad eagle eyes and take a look at things from his views...you may just be able to understand why he gets so 'stressed up' over the matter.

Like I've said above and like someone here has brought up as an example, Emsisoft may want to consider placing such logs inside the AppData folder instead.

And nope, I'm not an Emsisoft Antimalware customer/user currently (I've tried it in the past) but I do hold a license key for Mamutu thanks to a giveaway from an acquaintance online (Mamutu is nice btw ) and I'm a fan of Online Armor even before Emsisoft took over it (when it was still under TallEmu's supervision)

This thread is not targeted at Emsisoft but rather as something that's worth a look by other software developers too.

I'm merely speaking my mind over here..not intending to offend anyone. I apologize if I did.

 

Let's try to put this one to bed once and for all. I will quote from the actual Microsoft standards, rather than some perceived 'standard' you have (read?) that appears applicable only to Windows 98 and earlier:

- Applications should be installed to the Program Files folder by default. User data or application data must never be stored in this location because of the security permissions configured for this folder

- All application data that must be shared among users on the computer should be stored within ProgramData

- All application data exclusive to a specific user and not to be shared with other users of the computer must be stored in Users\<username>\AppData

Microsoft acknowledge however that Users\<username>\Appdata is not intended for use by the end user - which is why it is a hidden folder by default. If the user requires access to the relevant files outside of the application the correct approach is to save the data under the MyDocuments folder (or simply 'Documents' as it is now known).

If you have an issue with the standard I suggest you take it up with Microsoft. What Emsisoft and other companies have done is correct.

 

Thanks dude - I must admit that I wasn't aware of that earlier on (since I'm no developer but just an end user)

Well, to properly quote from the source, it'd be this:

First of all, am I wrong to view the log files (even if it's reports and scans) of a security program as application data rather than user-created data? After all, security programs as far as I'm aware and concerned are shared among users on the computer...especially if you have more than 1 user account. And fact is Microsoft itself recommends running under a standard user account. So, why not place such data (log files) in the appropriate place as recommended? ProgramData? (I made the wrong assumption earlier on with AppData...my apologies for my ignorance) And from what I can see, it's accessible by a standard user too.

Perhaps this is the reason why. But I still think it'd be good for Emsisoft and other software developers to provide the option either during the installation processs and/or in the program GUI itself after installation.

Once again, let me clarify that I'm not here to intrude on this topic. I couldn't care less if Emsisoft decides to stick to how it works as it's ultimately up to the developers themselves to set things up the way they think is best for their customers. I'm just sharing my views as opposed to suppressing it onto others.

It's EOT for me too.

P.S. Please don't curse me for what I've written...I'm just another human being.

 

I wasn't talking about any perceived standard or my own ideas, I was actually talking about what you are going on about too, BUT some companies and developers are abusing this, that is what I'm really going on about, the abuse where so many things don't really need to be in User-Space and can be placed elsewhere without causing an issue and actually are more secure.

We're not just going on about simple User data or application data, we were originally talking about security related issues being dumped into User Space and actually these logs should of been piped to the 'Event Log' to be more proper, something I never mentioned before.

Next is respecting the users-space and giving options and not just taking it upon yourself to dump everything into My Documents like you own the system, this is just plain wrong, WHY because you take away the Users control of their own system. Originally My Documents was a bit of a Standard for just user-created items, now everyone out there is raping it and dumping everything into it without consideration of the end-user. So some of this gets down to just plain old common sense and respect for others personal belongings and allow them to have their own space and not violate it.

Probably the simplest thing that MS should of done was to create a directory under My Documents called something like My Programs to then have developers dump into, to separate the mess. But for now at least all developers should give the end-user a choice to where in My Documents you want to place everything during the install and many of them don't and where these directories are placed right in the Root of My Documents can't be moved, without breaking something.

And so with my last words, what's wrong with giving the end-user the choice, if they made a directory called, 'My Programs' and wanted everything like this placed there? Well there is nothing wrong with it and it's called organization, something developers seem to be forgetting about, but like I said, many installers don't give you a choice, so you are stuck for now with everything getting placed in the ROOT of it!

 

Good, so you admit that your 'standard' that you were harping on about throughout this thread doesn't actually exist. The only standard is the Microsoft one which completely disagrees with what you're saying and supports what Emsisoft and other companies have done. There is no 'abuse' as you put it, only perhaps a perverse personal abuse that you feel due to an overly-intimate relationship with your MyDocuments folder. They are coding to the standard. You also need to go back to school on the purpose of the Event Viewer, as you are proposing a misuse of it.

And since Emsisoft has given the option as to where the log files are written, that covers your second point. I suggest you take up your 'MyPrograms' suggestion and "User space respect agenda" with Microsoft, encouraging them to rewrite the standards to your liking. Good luck with that.

Hope you see fit to make your final post an apology to Emsisoft. You've been on a quite viscous attack against them throughout this thread based on your own lack of understanding of the relevant issues and standards.

 

They have, AppData
Unfortunately, a lot of dev's still don't use it.

 

...which is hidden by default, hence it is not for use by the end user.

 

I think this Topic have enough debate xD
Finally settled

 

True, the average end user probably wouldn't know about it and wouldn't use it, but the average end user also wouldn't go looking at logs of his/her security products.

 

Why don't you go back and re-read those MS standards and try and put 2&2 together as it relates to SECURITY and then explain how you think that even remotely relates to User-Space, because it doesn't and that is what I've been harping on.

 

I've no wish to respond to your comments and bring this horrible and unneeded thread back to life. You thoroughly lost both the argument in every respect and embarrassed yourself with your ill-advised rant against Emsisoft. If you think you're right, then fine. Ignore the facts and stick to your immovable position. The rest of the world will carry on with life and you can carry on living in your own little parallel universe. EOT for me.

 

NON SENSE ARGUING

 

Sorry you don't seem to understand Windows Security so I'll show you a SIMPLE little screen shot to see if you can understand that.

http://img63.imageshack.us/f/logging.jpg/

Where is the firewall LOGGING TO?

I said in the beginning of the post 'Reports' & 'Scans' and since we are dealing with an application of Security I didn't think I had to come out and explain all this, but I see I was wrong.

Show us all where a SECURITY application installed into Windows as an Admin, then allows a user account access to security related Windows matters? If so then that application has broken basic security in all Operating Systems.

NO OS gives a basic user Security rights unless they were given, or added this is what I meant by all this and I thought since this is SUPPOSE to be a SECURITY forum you'd have a clue!

So I was ranting because a basic user should not have access to any security related reports or scans that the application just simply dictated which should come from the Admin who gives those permissions, but it seems Emsisoft took it upon themselves to do this and over ride PERMISSIONS.

You know if you guys don't get this, then you don't even understand BASIC SECURITY COMPUTER PERMISSIONS as it pertains to all OS systems...

SO why don't you show us then Security Applications installed by an Admin that give a user access? Oh yeah sure, they have SOME access, but not ALL and these logs I was going on about in all this post, a user should not simply have access to it. And then if you don't understand this, go back and look at all the security applications out there by Windows and SEE what access an Admin has over a User and this is what I mean!

SHEESH...

No it's not, you fail to see I've been talking also about Windows security, but I guess I didn't explain myself very well, so that is my fault and I assumed people understood it...

 

actually uve slightly changed ur argument to suit ur criticism now, u started by saying its against the users rights to put it there since u believed that folder was purely for user files and u also said it goes against basic windows practices and such

now ur saying that its a bad idea to put it into documents because limited users should not get to see those files anyways because its the admins job to take care of it

so its a slightly different position ur taking now.