Dr Web and AV Comparatives

Discussion in 'other anti-virus software' started by jrmhng, Feb 3, 2008.

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  1. Bob D

    Bob D Registered Member

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    I'm inclined to agree, but once again, I find test results nebulous.
    Per av-comparatives:
    Test of other Anti-Virus products. Feb 07 (revised Mar 07)
    Ikarus (T3) engine: Total detection rate 75%
    Single product test Sep 07 (revised oct 07)
    Ikarus (T3) engine: Total detection rate 97%

    Quite an improvement?
     
  2. sergeyko

    sergeyko AV Expert

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  3. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    A very interesting reply. I will be arrogant enough to make my own hypothesis.

    Each vendor, more or less, knows if his product is good or not. AV tests certifications, worth as a pubblicity. You add the logo or the results on the home page and the people are impressed.

    However, since you say that your way of developing is moving towards pro-active direction and that AV tests aren't going this way, i would think that you decided that partecipating at AV comparatives, doesn't give you back a good enough cost-benefit result, since you don't think that it reflects anymore the real potential of your product, so why waste the money ? (Recently there was a short-lived post here about costs of partecipating to av tests. The mods deleted it, but not before i had a nice look at it).

    So, if the money paid, don't show the real potential of the product, why partecipate? I see you already partecipate in Virus Bulettin, so more money spent to partecipate there. You can use that logo and use the money saved to promote the true capabilities of your AV in other ways (magazine insertions, for example). After all, if you make your name known to people, sooner or later you will sell more. And most people, will remember much easier F-Prot from a whole page pubblicity on a magazine, than from a result in a test with 15-16 more. Also, if the prices posted in that unlucky posts about the price of various tests is true, i would understand even more your reasons.

    Just an arrogant poster that likes to think he can deduce things. Don't pay attention, don't get mad at me. :D

    Regards
     
  4. Firecat

    Firecat Registered Member

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    PR games, cloaks and daggers.....well, lets see what the future brings :D
     
  5. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    "Standardization". I think of it as a gentle way to describe the struggle of interests of various AV vendors. Vendors depend on testers for their reputation and testers on vendors to make their own money. Each vendor has the interest to promote a "standard" that will rely more on capabilities that his AV can outshine the others. The final result, if any, IMHO, won't be a reliable standard, but a compromise between the interests of the partecipants. Some will end up winners, some not.

    Basically, in a statistics survey, the sample to examine, must be a) random (if you take 90% of zero day samples from Spain, then most probably Panda will win for example), b) representative of real life malware.

    I have my doubts that a) they will ever achieve such standard, b) that anyone either on the vendor or the tester side, has any interest of doing that, because it wouldn't help the image of anyone outhere. No more 99% success. No more happy users, that might turn into other solutions to which invest their money... And if vendors can't pubblish their super-duper results for this month where they beat the competition, maybe they won't be interested in paying for tests that don't help their image any more.
     
  6. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    well, i dont really care if drweb isnt in the huge-set tests, i dont believe they offer a proper judgment of the antivirus.

    anti-malware.ru
    antivirus.ru

    of course, those are russian but they are mainly smaller, realworld threats.

    and of course, drweb does well on shadowserver, which i doubt is russian.

    stick to the russians i will, they really know how to protect.

    Untitled.jpg
     
  7. Sjoeii

    Sjoeii Registered Member

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    I totally agree ;)
     
  8. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    reaction speed to new threats:

    :D

    1.jpg

    not sure how trusted/untrusted they can be, but its still another test to look at Sjoeii

    trust in the Russians :D
     
  9. NAMOR

    NAMOR Registered Member

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    Thank you.
     
  10. Hermescomputers

    Hermescomputers Registered Member

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    At least there will be some type of synergy between all the tests allowing to us to weed the wheat from the Chaff more effectively...

    It is difficult to assert what is fair in the testing of something as complex as anti virus technology. Having a standard (applied in an impartial fashion) can do nothing but good in the long term as it would bring fairness and balance to the process...
     
  11. Hermescomputers

    Hermescomputers Registered Member

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    This is why usually such things need to be developed from a neutrality perspective. My guess is some type of independent council formed for the establishments of basic rules for testing... With monitoring focused on preventing meddling from the vendors or of unfair Bias profiting specific vendors by the testers...

    As for the financing of such tests i am certain some types of consumer groups or those who profit from marketing such products like magazines could finance the process independently from the vendors themselves...

    Objectivity is paramount...
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2008
  12. bellgamin

    bellgamin Very Frequent Poster

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    A) If I am reading all this correctly then...

    >>>DrWeb's decision to withdraw from being tested by AV-C might be related to DRW's opinion that their antivirus program is being inadequately tested as to its TOTAL detection capabilities. ("TOTAL" = signatures PLUS heuristics PLUS et al).

    B) In terms of TOTAL detection capabilities...

    >>>Instead of DRW being among the "2nd tier" AVs (as indicated by certain test organizations), DRW is among the "1st tier" AVs (per data reported by shadowserver.org & other testers of that genus).

    >>>Ditto for F-Prot6

    OR am I mis-interpreting?
     
  13. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    yes, this is one reason.

    im sure there are others.

    yep, different tests, different opinions.
     
  14. Wabqua

    Wabqua Registered Member

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    do not know if I am in right area first time post down loaded Dr. Web cureit free edition have avg 7.5 on computer can I scan the Dr, Web cureit with the avg 7.5 with out problems?
     
  15. IBK

    IBK AV Expert

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    yes, you can.
     
  16. Hangetsu

    Hangetsu Registered Member

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    At a higher level than what's being discussed, as the independent tests can vary widely, multiple tests should be taken into account as only ONE aspect of making an AV decision IMHO. History, company reliability, certifications, etc. also come into play - Unless you like to change for the flavor of the month. :D

    However, one has to ask why an AV vendor would pull out of a test that its competition either accepts being part of, or are trying to be part of. I've always dinged TrendMicro (who opted out of IBK's tests) for the same reason.

    Scores can vary quite a bit across the various independent testing sites, but there tends to be a trend for many of them: Kaspersky, Avira, Symantec... There's a few that are consensus top-tier. That doesn't mean the others are bad, just that these AVs have numbers behind them. When an AV starts cherry-picking which tests they want to be a part of, it certainly throws some doubt into the equation.

    Having said all of that, the most important criteria will always be: If I go to bed at night with my PC left on and connected, can I sleep? :D That will always be a personal question, and the one that matters most!
     
  17. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    please enlighten us all, because you seem to know the reasons behind drwebs removal from the av-comparatives tests. :blink:

    lets take for example, the 'other' large sample test, AV-TEST.

    seen as you mentioned it, Trend Micro.

    you think a product can change its protection to users sooo dramatically within a timeframe of 2-3 months, didnt trend micros 'score' improve from about 90% to 99%?

    (sorry, cant remember the exact figures)


    you really think this is reliable testing?
    offers the public a proper reflection of the product tested?
     
  18. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    If your product only ranks standard, it kills your sales and public perception. So you pull out to save face instead of making the changes needed to improve your product. It isnt IBKs fault for this. Personally there are others wanting in, why? Because they are improving their products and want the exposure from his tests. There, plain and simple, and the truth. Spin it any way you want but it all boils down to how you look.
     
  19. C.S.J

    C.S.J Massive Poster

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    this forum is biased!
    true,

    false.

    ?

    i say that, because i aint really sure where IBK stands in this, and the reasons given/argued by both.


    true, its all a numbers game.

    company's use it as propaganda for sales of their product.
     
  20. Hangetsu

    Hangetsu Registered Member

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    I'm going by what I thought IBK said early in this thread: That DrWeb asked to be pulled from the testing. I'll double check when I'm done typing to be sure. EDIT: Page 1, 8th post down.

    I don't take any single test at face value, but rather a number of them (VB100s, Av-Comparatives, etc.). And again, that's only one aspect of my personal critera. Certifications play a part, a solid track record spanning over a year (at least), and system performance also are important.

    But as to your last question: Yes, I think a company can change their scores in between tests dramatically: Three months is potentially enough time to modify signatures and heuristics to improve scores, assuming the underlying software isn't the culprit. Why do you think it impossible that such a change could occur?
     
  21. Severyanin

    Severyanin AV Expert

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    I believe, in these cases your oppinion is the most valuable one.
    If it is based on your own experience, not on tests carried out by somebody else. And you know why? For one simple reason: you have all the evidence under your hands. In case of comparatives, reviews, tests etc. you miss one single thing: the evidence. You never know what and how was tested against what. I would rather trust your oppinion if you would have tried both Avira and Dr.Web on your computer AT YOUR OWN RISK. If you are confident that your computer is safe with one of them installed - what else would be a criteria for you?

    Dr.Web withdrew from the AV-Comparatives for one reason - it does not help it to make a progress on the market. All pros and contras have been said - but this is in the past. The technology that Dr.Web uses has not so far been tested at AV-Comparatives. Besides, the world of AV testing is quickly moving (many AVs met in Bilbao in January to start the discussion over tests and reviews, which means that not just Doctor Web is concerned with the tests quality).

    The reason Dr.Web is not there is not directly related to differences and mutual disagreements. Doctor Web is fastly moving on the Russian market with its new AV-Desk service which gains one ISP after another. This is a much more important challenge than any comparative review. After all, the company was created not to win comparative tests but to help people to be safe. The whole Dr.Web team is much more satisfied to see ISP's clients get rid of viruses and other malware with the help of Dr.Web than to argue with both Andreases.
     
  22. Hangetsu

    Hangetsu Registered Member

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    I have to disagree with that somewhat. I don't have a zoo of virii to test software against. A friend telling me "X works great, I don't have viruses, etc." is good, but how do you KNOW they don't have a virus? Because X told them so?

    I'm not saying independent testing is the complete panacea for this, but it does provide another measure of a product's capabilities. If independent testing and certification don't matter, why do I see Dr. Web listed as ICSA certified for virus detection?

    Either they matter or they don't. But cherrypicking tests doesn't give me, at least, a lot of confidence. I've never used Dr. Web and I'm NOT saying its a bad product - I'm only saying that this strategy doesn't make much sense IMHO.
     
  23. Severyanin

    Severyanin AV Expert

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    Are you 100% sure that what is believed to be a collection of virii in any independent testing is really a collection of virus files? This is one reason AV comanies gathered in Bilbao - they do not want to be tested against a bunch of garbage arbitrary called "virii".

    ICSA, at least, gives a guarantee that an Av-product is tested on a 100% proved virus collection. And 80% of Dr.Web's clients have never heard of ICSA labs. One of the reasons Dr.Web is still there is because they care about the products they are testing and thus help them to become better.
     
  24. Hangetsu

    Hangetsu Registered Member

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    Nope, I'm not 100% sure. But I'm not 100% sure of trade mag reviews of products either. Or reviews posted on forums by others. And I know I don't want to spend the time and energy trying to do it myself. Its a matter of taking the various components to determine the best product based on all of the information available from multiple sources.

    I know what you're saying about the ICSA vs AV-Comparatives testing, but to the independent person, its going to look like a) They did so bad they got tossed from AV-Comparatives a la OneCare last year, or b) They are picking and choosing which tests to be part of, based on how well their product does within those tests. That's a red flag to me, but not for you.

    And that's fine - each person has a different mix of checks for their product. Some are more concerned with performance, others want "The Best" from all of those tests, some want something in the middle. My opinion (and that's all it is) is that pulling out of a well-read and respected test like AV-Comparatives is a mistake. I might be wrong.
     
  25. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    In the end it really doesnt matter. Web has their reasons and are entitled to them. AV-C will continue on and some may stay, some may go, and some may come. So that is what all of this boils down to. No smoking gun. None that we will or should be privy to.
     
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