DOJ starts new war on encryption, this time with Facebook

Minimalist · Aug 17, 2018

As part an investigation into MS-13, the U.S. Department of Justice is trying to box Facebook into the same corner it tried to put Apple in after the 2015 San Bernadino shooting. According to a bombshell Reuters exclusive, the government wants Facebook to break the encryption of its standalone Messenger app so authorities can listen to the voice conversations of a suspect as part of an MS-13 investigation.
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https://bgr.com/2018/08/17/facebook-messenger-encryption-in-doj-crosshairs/

mirimir · Aug 17, 2018

Predictable, of course.

LockBox · Aug 19, 2018

I have a feeling Facebook could fall to these demands. Apple has such an investment in privacy, and its encryption, that they have made it technically impossible (without huge $$$ to spend) to hand over this kind of information. But buying and selling of data is not Apple's business model

Palancar · Aug 23, 2018

LockBox said: ↑

I have a feeling Facebook could fall to these demands. Apple has such an investment in privacy, and its encryption, that they have made it technically impossible (without huge $$$ to spend) to hand over this kind of information. But buying and selling of data is not Apple's business model
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Except that Apple has a big advantage here in that its a HARDWARE block of their phones, whereas Facebook is only controlling the software of the messenger. In theory if Apple had a truly locked physical phone and then agreed to mfg new ones that are not blocked, it wouldn't affect those already produced and securely locked from prying eyes. In my basic example I simply mean you couldn't bypass the locking mechanism remotely by changing a software package during a sneak update! e.g. my LUKS serpent header cannot be changed by an update unless I sudo in and perform the change locally, which I won't!

LockBox · Aug 31, 2018

Palancar said: ↑

Except that Apple has a big advantage here in that its a HARDWARE block of their phones, whereas Facebook is only controlling the software of the messenger. In theory if Apple had a truly locked physical phone and then agreed to mfg new ones that are not blocked, it wouldn't affect those already produced and securely locked from prying eyes. In my basic example I simply mean you couldn't bypass the locking mechanism remotely by changing a software package during a sneak update! e.g. my LUKS serpent header cannot be changed by an update unless I sudo in and perform the change locally, which I won't!
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I agree! You said exactly what I meant.

BriggsAndStratton · Sep 9, 2018

The problem is that the encryption in question is end to end, so in order for facebook to comply, they would have to re-write the code to their app or hack the target's phone which I have no idea how they will do that on their own. If granted this would set a president. Could this mean the end of end to end encryption in messaging apps or any other form? I doubt it. DOJ will not prevail.

mood · Sep 28, 2018

US government loses bid to force Facebook to wiretap Messenger calls
September 28, 2018
https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/28/u...to-force-facebook-to-wiretap-messenger-calls/

According to sources speaking to Reuters, the judge later ruled in Facebook’s favor — although, because the case remains under seal, it’s not known for what reason.

Reuters said that an affidavit submitted by an FBI agent said that “there is no practical method available by which law enforcement can monitor” calls on Facebook Messenger . Although Facebook-owned WhatsApp uses end-to-end encryption to prevent eavesdroppers, not even the company can listen in — which law enforcement have long claimed that this hinders investigations.

But Facebook Messenger doesn’t end-to-end encrypt voice calls, making real-time listening in on calls possible.

Although phone companies and telcos are required under US law to allow police and federal agencies access to real-time phone calls with a court-signed wiretap order, internet companies like Facebook fall outside the scope of the law.
Privacy advocates saw this case as a way to remove that exemption, accusing the government of trying to backdoor the encrypted app [...]
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mood · Nov 28, 2018

ACLU asks court to release a secret order forcing Facebook to wiretap Messenger
November 28, 2018
https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/28/aclu-secret-order-facebook-messenger-wiretap/

[...] the feds pushed the court to hold the company in contempt. The case collapsed, but details of the case remain under seal and out of the public eye.

Now, the ACLU wants to know how the feds tried to pull it off.
The rights and civil liberties group filed a motion in California on Wednesday to ask the judge to unseal the case to reveal exactly what the government asked that was enough to convince the court to demand Facebook dismantle Messenger’s encryption in the first place.

Jennifer Granick, ACLU’s surveillance and cybersecurity counsel, said the public “deserves to know why the government thought it could dismantle measures that protect their right to privacy online.”
Facebook declined to comment. A spokesperson for the Justice Dept. also declined to comment.
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mirimir · Nov 28, 2018

The more of this sort that I hear, the more I think that nothing privacy-centric should depend on, or be vulnerable to, entities that can be pressured. Ideally, they ought to be thoroughly anonymous and hidden. Or at least operating from relatively safe places. But on the other hand, there is the benefit of relying on firms with the resources to resist adversaries. As long as they're likely to do so, anyway. And with profit-driven firms, the only hope is that they fear damage to their reputation.

Palancar · Nov 29, 2018

And with profit-driven firms, the only hope is that they fear damage to their reputation.
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This reminds me of Apple and their latest firmware upgrade. Time will tell whether or not the modification is a serious block instead of just "show face" for appearances.

mood · Feb 12, 2019

US judge keeps documents secret in Facebook Messenger encryption case
Civil rights groups sought the release of documents describing a US government effort to compel decryption of voice conversations
February 12, 2019
https://www.computerworld.com.au/ar...ts-secret-facebook-messenger-encryption-case/

A US judge has rejected a bid by two civil rights groups that had sought to force the release of documents describing a secret U.S. government effort to compel Facebook Inc to decrypt voice conversations between users on its Messenger app.

Groups including the American Civil Liberties Union argued that the public's right to know the state of the law on encryption outweighed any reason the U.S. Justice Department might have for protecting a criminal probe or law-enforcement method.
The Washington Post newspaper also filed a legal brief to unseal the records.

O'Neill wrote that Facebook supported the ACLU's requests to unseal, with limited redactions, while the government opposed them.
"The materials at issue in this case concern techniques that, if disclosed publicly, would compromise law enforcement efforts in many, if not all, future wiretap investigations," O'Neill wrote, adding that the underlying criminal case was still ongoing.
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mood · Jun 15, 2019

EFF asks for DOJ efforts to break Facebook encryption to be made public
June 13, 2019
https://www.zdnet.com/article/eff-a...-break-facebook-encryption-to-be-made-public/

On Wednesday, the civil rights group asked the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit to unseal documents relating to a ruling made by a judge to prevent the US Department of Justice (DoJ) from forcing Facebook to purposely break Facebook Messenger encryption protocols.
The case (.PDF), in which the EFF, American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), and Stanford cybersecurity expert Riana Pfefferkorn are taking on the DoJ, asks that documents are unsealed which are keeping the details of the legal dispute between the DoJ and Facebook secret.

EFF, ACLU, and Pfefferkorn argue that US citizens have First Amendment and common law rights to access court records relating to the rules that govern them, and in Facebook's case, the vast amount of personal data the company holds makes transparency even more crucial.
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EFF: Details of Justice Department Efforts To Break Encryption of Facebook Messenger Must Be Made Public, EFF Tells Court

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