Does IFW/IFD play well with FD-ISR?

Discussion in 'FirstDefense-ISR Forum' started by Horus37, Jan 4, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Horus37

    Horus37 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Posts:
    328
    Was thinkinking of using Image for windows/Image for dos as my imaging software of choice over ghost or acronis but after reading endless posts I'm still confused as ever. I have a fear about long file names not being trunkated correctly, plus I'm also worried about creating an image of my entire disk set up the way I have now that has and admin AND limited user acct but no passwords set up for either. Will this cause a problem? I read that if you don't setup a password with your admin and user accounts your CD rom access gets denied when trying to take image off external USB drive back to native host drive. Is that true? HEEEELLLLPPP!!!o_O

    Plus I was reading about Norton Ghost 9+ and above about it changing the MBR to solve a drive rename issue and was wondering if I that is a reason not to consider using it as an image software with FDISR? I'm looking to see which of the products works best and now I have Bootit NG seems like a better choice than the IFD/IFW. So many choice and so much reading my eyes are hurting....

    Decisions decisions...

    I have an AMD64 Hp laptop 3500+ I've rebuilt from scratch lean with FD-ISR just installed and now I want to do a backup to an external drive and wondering which imaging software to pic to backup to a USB 2.0 250 GB external HDD.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  2. Blackcat

    Blackcat Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Posts:
    4,010
    Location:
    Christchurch, UK
    IFD/IFW with FD has been thoroughly tested by Dallen here.

    In contrast, if you look through past threads you will also see that other Imaging programs have been used successfully with FD.

    Personally I would trial the Imaging programs first; decide which one you like/suits your system/succesfully images and restores and then post back here with any problems. There is a lot of experienced users here to help you.
     
  3. Blackcat

    Blackcat Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Posts:
    4,010
    Location:
    Christchurch, UK
    A recent thread here gives you some good reading on different Imaging software.

    Read, and then test some of them out.
     
  4. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,054
    I have used IFW/IFD, DriveSnapshot, Acronis, and ShadowProtect

    My preference for use with FD would be either Acronis or Shadowprotect. The reason is they both image and give restore options on the MBR and TRack 0

    Acronis has never failed, when I've restored a good image, but there are little flaky things about it. Shadow Protect has been rock solid.

    I did some real tough testing in a virtual machine, by taking the standard image with IFW and ShadowProtect. Then I really messed with the disks deleting volumes, and other stuff that really mess them up. Shadow Protect could have cared less, restoring the mbr track0 and the partition with no sweat. I did manage to find one combo that left IFW confused, and it was unable to do a restore. I was using IFW under Bartpe, so I tried again with IFD and it still failed. Granted this was something you probably would never encounter in real life, but still...

    Pete
     
  5. Horus37

    Horus37 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Posts:
    328
    Thanks Pete for the replys. I've read over this forum for 2 days straight at great length so I feel like I have a ton of questions. I did read about acronis true image and the MBR issue and was previously wondering if FDISR would fight with products that messed with the MBR like acronis and shodowprotect do. I guess they don't since you've thoroughly tested that idea out. My recollection was that FDISR doesn't like resident MBR programs along side it. I thought KAV was a problem but apparently not?? So trying to figure out this whole thing all I really get is "hey just download them all and try them all out." NOT I don't have the time or the patience for that when I've got other more pressing issues. Everyone here seems to have there own pet software and the general consensus is that no one software is better than another which doesn't really seem possible is it? I read one post that extols the reliability of IFD/IFW then another that talks about BING and then the MBR issue comes up. Then I read about all the downloads you need with BartPe to go along with it and my head spins. Then I read about Bootit NG and how that might be a better choice but I have questions about it and the MBR and issues of it only being a "partition" image software not truely a whole disk image solotion, whatever. I read over tons of info on Ghost issues pre and post 2003 and having to get a 2.0 universal USB driver and how and where to put that into the software etc. (More head spinning) Plus the whole raging debate about dos VS windows reliability and if the software now is truely more reliable since it really does all it's magic in dos anyways, why not just use dos? Plus I'm concerned about all my files name length and truncation issues if I use ghost. GEEZ . Are all these programs that way? Do I have to worry about name length on all my files if I use a backup image program? (can you tell I never did this before) :) I seem to change my mind with each new reading of the forums. STOP THE INSANITY!!!

    My issues are how concerned should I be about MBR and which programs mess with it on backup/imaging that I should stay away from?


    Would you consider shadow protect over the new acronis 10 and Ghost 10 products? What issues do they have? I read over on a ghost forum about even the new 10 version programs still have issues so it's hard to drop 70 bucks when they seem not to have gotten any better.

    :doubt:
     
  6. Horus37

    Horus37 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Posts:
    328


    Thanks for the response. I've changed my mind about a hundred times in 3 days about which imaging product to use. It's all so so confusing considering all the issues one has to watch out for. Considering depending on which program you choose they all seem to still work under dos with a quasi windows interface.

    With acronis they have issues with a bug right now about deleting time stamps and dates on files upon restore so that has me worried cause they don't have that fixed yet. Plus no one seems to be able to get the thing to work across a network backup situation...at least is seems that way considering the problems so many posters have. Next there is the whole issue of Secure Zone not working correctly with this product. Yet it's rated #1 by IT depts nationwide. Wish someone would compile a known issues data bank on the current imaging software. Now acronis has this to worry about https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=160090&page=2. I just can't believe I'm going to have to install and try out all the various products to see which one works best for my setup. I'll need a DEFRAGGER now for sure. Plus I have defragging issues with FDISR. It never ends...

    IFD/IFW requires bartpe and other snap ins? OR is Bing the ticket we need and how come it interferes with FD-ISR? Plus it requires a boot cd and bing doesn't Seems like with all these new products like acronis and ghost having issues with file date time stamps and file name trucation with .gho and the such how do these MUCH OLDER programs function without these issues? Why don't the new programs function like the old ones? They seem to be going backwards.

    Bing has issues with FDISR. Bing is an older version of Bootit NG? So will bootit NG cause problems with FDISR? What issues should I watch out for then if I us FDISR?

    Ghost 10 not sure of yet but would like to know if that's the same as Norton save and restore? and is that better?

    I just want to do a simple backup onto a hard drive usb and now I have to worry about USB 2 drivers and mounting issues and reading / verifying issues and networking issues ad hominum. Can't believe imaging is still so screwed up after all this time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2007
  7. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,054
    Hi Horus

    Let me attempt to answer.

    First I run KAV beta's and I have seen no issues with any of the software discussed in this thread.

    The MBR or Master Boot Record. This is the first thing read as the machine boots and provides direction for where the computer goes next.

    First Defense modifies the MBR which is how you see the Preboot screen.

    None of the other software mentioned here modify the MBR.

    When imaging Acronis and Shadow Protect include the MBR as part of the image. IFW does not. (they have a helper product that does, but I don't like it).

    When you restore with IFD it doesn't do anything to the MBR, although you can instruct it to write a standard MBR

    Shadow protect and Acronis give you the option of either restoring the MBR or not. Shadow protect gives you the additional choice of restoring a standard MBR.

    How does this all affect FDISR. Not much. If FDISR is active when you image, and the mbr should be restored to a standard one this isn't a big deal. You just boot up and turn FDISR back one.

    There is a lot more, but hopefully that will give you a start.

    Pete
     
  8. Horus37

    Horus37 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Posts:
    328
    ]


    Thanks for the help. I want FDISR running when I do my imaging right? I don't see why I should turn if off. And if I do have it running when I image with either Acronis or Shadowprotect =which both image the MBR along with the rest of the whole hdd then I shouldn't run into problems. Can you think of a situation where you woulndn't want it to image the MBR at the time of a backup image creation other than the MBR becoming corrupt prior? Why would you NOT want to include the MBR in an image?

    If you'll bare with me.... What about defragging issues with FDISR? I read that most people defrag PRIOR to doing a backup yet with FDISR that can be problematic because of the ? Location of some file or because it messes with the MBR? I suppose I could ask Raxco about the defrag program and how to be careful with it. Love to get defragged snapshot yet i'm leary of doing that till I know more.

    You also mentioned that if the MBR gets somehow transferred back to a standard one during an image restore then you are basically out of luck and have to "go back one" in FDISR because the MBR isn't able to bet appended with the proper FDISR files now if that were to occur? Can't fix a standard MBR to an FDISR compatible one after an image reinstall from an offline USB hdd? Would the image just not work then if the MBR became standard somehow?
     
  9. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    Posts:
    3,187
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Ok Horus, get a grip :)

    You are over complicating things:
    FWIW:

    FDISR: install into "primary" C partition: use it: solid gold utility, almost idiot proof: go back to the early threads in the support forum you will see. :thumb:

    If you want the simplest (and best :D ) image tool, get IFW.
    - ~3 click imaging to bootable CD, DVD, OR USB, other partition, other HD.
    - will not mess with MBR.
    - ~3 click restore to any partition of appropriate size; you may need to change boot order or reorder partitions with BING (except current OS partition, you can use IFD or BING for that when you are more comfortable)
    Almost idiot proof.
    (IFW will image your 'C' as required with FDISR and snapshots with preboot on or off)

    ShadowProtect has more options for restoring and is also very user friendly.
    Will not mess with FDISR or MBR unless you want it to.

    Perfect Disc defragger will not mess with FDISR and otherwise works with Shadow protect and Terabyte utilities. Will not mess with MBR. Other dfraggers may move some FDISR files and for FDISR to "find itself" may take reboot and reenable of FDISR preboot option.

    The thread https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=133283 from dallen is an exhaustive analysis of Terabyte tools and FDISR.

    Take care, Maybe as first go; Use FDISR to make an "Archive snapshot" of your current system, store it offline (USB drive, external HD then experiment with other tools. As long as you can boot back to OS and FDISR, you can restore with the archive
     
  10. Horus37

    Horus37 Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Posts:
    328


    I went and had some icecream. Feel better now.

    I am on a steep learning curve here but this can't be that hard. After all I am capable of reinstalling all my software and updates and patches etc and getting to this point. However I guess it's because I'm avoiding having to buy the perfect disk defragger which now seems like a totally essential tool now. Can someone explain why the stock defragger from MS is not up to snuff when FDISR is installed? Does it confuse FDISR after a defrag? I'm not interested in trying out tons of software and then having to defrag. I would rather do the tests in a virtual environment. So why do I have to purchase a special defragger?
     
  11. Longboard

    Longboard Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    Posts:
    3,187
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Fdisr may not 'reengage' after a dfrag that moves any of it's data points on disc.

    Usually a reboot will fix the problem.
    The same problem may occur if the 'C' partition is resized by any partition tool.

    EDIT:
    :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2007
  12. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,054
    Both statements are absolutely correct, but it is also interesting that when I tested the Ultimate Defragger(which I didn't like compared to Perfect Disk) I didn't exclude any files, and First Defense was fine.

    I have also resized partitions with Acronis Disk Director and FD has been fine.

    But if it does get turned off, it is no big deal.



    Lastly Horus, Windows defragger should work fine with first defense. The worst case is you just simply re enable FD. That takes all of 5 seconds. The reason I don't use it is simple. I think it is a lousy defragger.

    Pete
     
  13. Defenestration

    Defenestration Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2004
    Posts:
    1,086
    This will hopefully change with IFW version 2 - at least I've specifically requested this feature a couple of times and got the impression that it would be included.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.