Differential file backup

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by Wolf Ruediger, May 5, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    I'm new to Acronis 10.0 home (build 4871) ... and a little bit confused:

    Reason:
    - Done: Full IMAGE backup on external USB drive. OK.
    - Wish: Hopefully FAST differential FILE backup instead of SLOW differential IMAGE backup (as experienced in step before). AND that on another drive (DVD-RAM) because USB drive is stored at another place.
    - Confusing: Differential file backup starts backing up *ALL* files regardless of their settings re. archive bit.

    Using 'Backup Exec' and on board (W2K, XP) 'NT Backup' since a lot of years I'm familiar with behaviour that differential (or incremental) Backup saves ONLY Files with archive bit set (being resetted by full backup).

    What about True Image?
    - Doesn't it use archive bits?
    - Does it only work against it's own full backup as reference?
    - In special: Does differential FILE backup only work against a full FILE backup?

    Short explanation would be greatly appreciated ...

    At the moment I use old fashioned 'Backup Exec' / 'NT Backup' in parallel for diferential file backup ... annoying!

    Thanks in advance,

    Wolf
     
  2. Tabvla

    Tabvla Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Posts:
    649
    Location:
    London, England
    Hello Wolf Ruediger, welcome to the Forum :D

    You asked for a short answer. Here it is: -

    1. Differential Backups

    A differential backup will backup all files (or sectors) that have changed since the last FULL backup.

    2. Incremental Backups

    An incremental backup will backup all files (or sectors) that have changed since the last INCREMENTAL backup. (or FULL backup in the case of the first incremental).

    3. My Computer / Images / Cloning

    This type of backup creates a sector-by-sector backup of the partition (or the entire disk in the case of Cloning)

    4. My Data / Files & Folders


    This type of backup creates a file-based backup similar to Windows Backup and Restore utility.

    If you have any questions on the above please ask.

    T.
     
  3. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Hi Tabvla,

    thanks for reply.

    But - sorry- it doesn't answer my question.

    As pointed out I'm familiar with questions of backup modes since a lot of years.

    <A differential backup will backup all files (or sectors) that have changed since the last FULL backup.>
    My question once more:
    I made a FULL IMAGE backup. After that a DIFFERENTIAL FILE BACKUP saves ALL Files regardless of archive bit settings.
    Does Acronis NOT USE archive bits?

    For more details please have a look at my original message.

    Thanks,

    Wolf
     
  4. foghorne

    foghorne Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Posts:
    1,389
    Location:
    Leeds, Great Britain
    TI does not use archive bits. One reason that a differential might appear to take a long time is that TI is copying at the sector level - even for file backups.

    F.
     
  5. seekforever

    seekforever Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Posts:
    4,751
    The original post referred to a slow Full image backup. How slow is slow?
    For an image, you should be able to do about 3/4GB of normally compressed tib file per minute to a USB2 drive from within Windows. This is a very rough estimate. However, if you HW is slow then everything will be slow. Also, defraggers running between the Full and the differential or incremental will make the archive very large.

    Files and Folders backups are slower because unlike images, they use the File System for some of their work.

    I only do full images so a question for the Files and Folders users: If you make an Full Image backup and then request a Differential FF backup, will it do it based on the Full Image or does it require a Full FF backup and will thus make it? If so, could this be the problem?
     
  6. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Posts:
    25,885
    Hello Wolf Ruediger,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis Disk Backup Software.

    We are sorry for the delayed response.

    Please notice that Tabvla, foghorne and seekforever are correct. Acronis True Image does not use archive bit. Files/folders incremental/differential backup can only be created against files/folders full backup; the same applies for drive/partition image. Please notice that you can find the detailed instructions on how to use Acronis True Image 10.0 Home in the respective User's Guide.

    Thank you.
    --
    Marat Setdikov
     
  7. SloPoke

    SloPoke Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Posts:
    34
    - True Image doesn't use archive bits
    - Yes, it needs the original full backup file as a reference. If the original full backup doesn't exist, the differential will be processed as a full backup.
     
  8. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Hi,

    THANKS TO ALL for answers & informations.

    <Files/folders incremental/differential backup can only be created against files/folders full backup; ...>
    That means that full reference backup must be available when performing differential backup.
    But full backup (on external USB drive) is stored at another location in order to protect against hazard.
    So a quick, uncomplicated differential backup 'at your fingertips' is not possible. First full backup has to be made available in a time consuming way.

    Annoying ...

    Greetings from Colgne / Bonn,

    Wolf
     
  9. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Also thanks for your contribution.

    <If you make an Full Image backup and then request a Differential FF backup, will it do it based on the Full Image or does it require a Full FF backup and will thus make it? >
    *** That's a remaining question also to me ... ***

    <How slow is slow?>
    I can't quantify it at the moment.
    But indeed it's MUCH MORE SLOW than a typical differential file backup of mine done by my old fashioned 'Backup Exec' using the same hardware.

    Regards,

    Wolf
     
  10. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Archive bit is irrelevant, and has no effect.
    Archive bit is a bit of historic debris that has no use in real programs.
     
  11. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Do not use files/folders backup, use only image backup.
     
  12. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Thanks.

    I accept that my knowledge and habit making backups is somewhat old fashioned (as myself :) ) and that I've to change ...


    What about your know how re.:

    <If you make an Full Image backup and then request a Differential FF backup, will it do it based on the Full Image or does it require a Full FF backup and will thus make it? >
    *** That's a remaining question also to me ... ***

    Wolf
     
  13. Tabvla

    Tabvla Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Posts:
    649
    Location:
    London, England
    Hello Wolf, in a previous post you wrote...
    I am trying to understand what you find annoying about this o_O

    If all you want to do is backup your Files & Folders then there seems little point in using a 3rd-party Backup utility. The Backup utility supplied with Windows is quite adequate for simple Files & Folders backups.

    ATI users a completely different algorithm to the one used by Windows. Because of this ATI is considerably more powerful when it comes to "Imaging" a partition or disk. Windows Backup cannot create an Image of the system partition and as such is useless for rescuing a system after an OS corruption or disk failure. (Vista contains a utility called ImageX, but that is a discussion for another day!)

    Most users deploy 3rd-party utilities like ATI primarily because they create sector-by-sector Images of a disk or partition. It is therefore completely logical that when such a utility is used to create an Incremental or Differential backup that the original Full backup archive must be available as a reference.

    There is nothing "annoying" about this - it is simply common sense.

    T.
     
  14. foghorne

    foghorne Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Posts:
    1,389
    Location:
    Leeds, Great Britain
    The word differential is a relative term. It this context it is relative to a previous full backup. If you don't have a full backup - the term differential is meaningless.

    If you want to have a 'new changes' backup since previous backup where the previous backup is not a full one, you should look at incremental, not differential.

    Either way both types are based on a full at some point.

    F.
     
  15. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Hi Tabvla,

    I understand and accept benefits of ATI.

    I learn that I've to reorganize my backup strategy up to now:
    - To have a full backup on medium A in a secure, seperate location some distance away
    - To have a differential backup on another medium B more easily reachable

    NOW I've to make a walk everytime to perform a differential backup: I've to get the medium containing backup A - the reference - to perform backup B.

    For me that's annyoing. But I'll familiarize with this.

    Thanks so far for your contributions which helped to clear my point of view.

    Wolf
     
  16. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Thanks.

    Maybe that there has been a misunderstanding re. what my 'problem' is.

    Please have a look at my answer to Tabvla.

    Wolf
     
  17. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Posts:
    2,802
    Well, walking is good exercise.

    But yopu do not have to take a walk.
    If you want to take any backup archives off-site, just make a copy that you keep on site.

    NEVER use file-based backup.
    They are too slow and can miss some files.
     
  18. Tabvla

    Tabvla Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Posts:
    649
    Location:
    London, England
    Hi Wolf

    If you let me know the size of the backup(s) in Gigabytes (GB) and the nature of the backup(s) (Data, System, Programs...) I may be able to make some suggestions as to how you can improve your backup strategy.

    I understand completely what you are saying. And the long-term problem is that when backups become a tiresome chore, we may always be tempted to delay doing them.

    Your backup strategy needs to be easy to understand and to implement.

    For situations like yours I can suggest a number of strategies.

    T.
     
  19. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Hi Tabvla,

    sorry for replying late. But just on 11th I went into a nice weekend running a marathon and after that I had to spent my time with business.

    Thanks for your offer. I think with this discussion I've learned Acronis in a better way and know it's my turn to review my backup strategy a little bit re. availability of referenced full backup when making a difference backup.

    As Howard remarked: 'Well, walking is good exercise.' Which should not be a severe problem for me as marathoni :))

    Thanks to you and all other contributors of this thread,

    wolf
     
  20. evvivame

    evvivame Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Posts:
    23
    Good morning,
    I'm an old ...woman that has worked on the old mainfraim with the archive software (see means of differential or incremental backup).
    The ATI ( HOME 10 V4.942) userguide is clear but......

    1) How can I manage the differential/incremental archive, when ATI donn’t use archive bit (see this thread) ?

    2) after a lot of tests like this exemple:
    a) create a full.tib,
    b) add a new file in my HD,
    c) create a differential archive (baseline a),
    d) create a incremental archive (baseline a),

    I see that:
    c backup is created as a full backup
    d backup is created as a full backup

    Why are they full backups?
    Why can I restore c) or d), after full backup file ( point a) deletion, without error or data lost??

    Sure I haven’t understood something important...but I see more threads on this topic ....I'm in good company :-D
    Thanks in advance!
    Luciana
    PS sorry for my bad English:oops:
     
  21. thomasjk

    thomasjk Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Posts:
    1,477
    Location:
    Charlotte NC
    Read this guide BACKUP LOCATIONS don't work.
     
  22. Tabvla

    Tabvla Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Posts:
    649
    Location:
    London, England
    Hi Evivivame

    With the exception of the Title, the link provided by thomasjk contains a wealth of very useful information. The Title however is misleading. Backup Locations DO WORK.

    They may not work quite like most of us expect and some of the navigation around the functionality is perhaps counter-intuitive, but..... they do work.

    Read the User Guide very carefully.

    Let us know how you get on.

    T.
     
  23. Wolf Ruediger

    Wolf Ruediger Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    11
    Location:
    Cologne/Bonn, Germany
    Hi evvivame,

    The same with me (MVS / TSO ...).

    We have to learn and to change our mind ... please have a look to former steps of this thread: FORGET ARCHIVE BITS! They are not used by Acronis.

    Incremental / differential backups ONLY are created against a full backup as reference. If not available Acronis automatically creates a full backup regardless of your request.

    Regards from near Cologne / Germany

    wolf
     
  24. evvivame

    evvivame Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Posts:
    23
    Hi Wolf,
    you tell like my point 2a,b,c,d ?! ...or not?

    Thanks
    Luciana
     
  25. evvivame

    evvivame Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Posts:
    23
    Hi Thomasjk and Tabvla,
    Thanks for your support.

    After read the "Create and Configure Backup Locations Incremental.txt" , I tell you: Yes run fine (tested incremental backups ) !!!
    !!!!

    Now..can I tell that increm/differ run fine only if I use the "Backup Location" ?

    Again thanks
    Luciana
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.