defragmentation and data

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by clique, Mar 3, 2006.

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  1. clique

    clique Registered Member

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    Hi
    I have seen such thing in most computers, and no matter howmany times I do defrag, there is always a strip of data located in the middle or somewhere(as seen in pic). why is that. isn't defragmentation suppose to push data as well toward the begining. Any danger for example in resizing such a hard disk. Thank you
     

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  2. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    There are a few NTFS system files that cannot be moved.
    One of them is the MFT, master file table (which stores information about the location and other things about files on the hdd). This usually gets put in the middle of a partition and would matchup with the screenshot.
    Plenty of info if you google unmoveable files in ntfs.
     
  3. Alphalutra1

    Alphalutra1 Registered Member

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    The only problem with Nickr's comment is that the data is not said to be unmovable. Download contig.exe from sysinternals and also Power Defragmenter Gui from excessive software and then defragment with it, and post back what windows says after that ;)

    Alphalutra1
     
  4. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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    try doing it in safe mode (tap the F8 key during boot and select safe mode). or this might be better, download dirms, put it in -
    C:\WINDOWS\system32

    then open a command prompt Start>Run>cmd, then click OK.

    and run this command
    dirms c move lcn

    http://www.dirms.com/
     
  5. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    Im guessing thats one big file there, and if it is, im sure it is after the MFT and MFT reserved space.

    Why ? Because the ntfs driver will put a file in the smallest space it will fit (plus space for exspansion) and im guessing that rather large space after the MFT is the smallest space according to above.
     
  6. nadirah

    nadirah Registered Member

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    An easier program is to use PerfectDisk from www.raxco.com
    Its easier to use and defragments a hard disk better with its patented SmartPlacement technology.
     
  7. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Ayup, I just purchased the critter. It does appear to be the best of the lot.
    I use the trial version recently, it's reall very good (tho I do not like their manual).
     
  8. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    Just to add, have you noticed any problems/issues with that file being left there ?
     
  9. clique

    clique Registered Member

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    the computer is fine and no problem from files being there."diskeeper lite" pushed the strip further to the right, "contig" did nothing,in safe mode nothing, but the amazing "dirms" pushed every thing to the begining (top horizontal strip), however windows defrag puts it back again (bottom horizontal strip), why is that.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  10. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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    i don't really know very much about filesystems, but i do know that the default defragmentor doesn't show all the files on your disk, or at least all the tracks or sectors. so maybe if you tried something else it will show more information. in the past i had a nice standalone defragmentor, i think Nickr might have mentioned it in the past, there's a chance it might show something which will help. or maybe sysinternals has something o_O that would be a standalone too.

    i do know that Dirms' sister program - Buzzsaw, is very good. it's another little DOS program which you put in startups and it defrags on-the-fly :cool: i always use it, i checked to see if i needed to defrag the other day and there were only 3/4 fragmented files :cool: :cool:

    if you want to try it out and need some help setting it up i'll try and help, i'm not using XP any more but i should be able to work out how to get it working, i think :p
     
  11. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Perfect Disk is best and does things right.
    There are a number of white papers at the perfect disk web site discussing some things and comparing with other good defraggers, including Diskeeper and O & O Defrag.

    perfect Disk is way better, it's not even close.

    See http://www.perfectdisk.com/products/perfectdisk2k/wp.cfm
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  12. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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    this is the program i was thinking of, it's a standalone program so you can just extract it to a folder then if you don't want to keep it just delete the folder. just run it and ask it to analyse the partition, it might show something more. maybe it's a good defragger too o_O
    http://www.geocities.com/andreigaceff/DefragNT.html

    check out this screenshot :eek:
    http://www.portablefreeware.com/graphics/defragnt/screenshot.gif

    EDIT try this first.
    and here's something by Sysinternals
    http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/DiskView.html
     
  13. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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  14. WSFuser

    WSFuser Registered Member

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    the windows defragger doesnt always consolidate ur files, its just how it works. if u want ur data consolidated (one solid block) then try perfectdisk or other 3rd party defragger.
     
  15. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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    Howard, i don't like Perfect Disk.
     
  16. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    My only complaint is the manual.

    Also, they've made significant improvents in the GUI in the latest version.

    If you've not seen te latest version, download the trial and take a look.
     
  17. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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    i've never used PD i just didn't like the way you said "perfect Disk is way better, it's not even close."

    i don't think it's worth paying for a defragmentor, the defragmentor which comes with XP is good enough. AFAIK, all that's important is where the files are placed so they can be read back faster, where the MFT is in relation to the most used files, how much free space there is between all the files, and having enough free space to reorganise all the files when they are being defragmented. XP's defragmentor will do all that just fine.

    NTFS will move stuff around and try and make files fit the best it can without having to defrag. and i don't think it really matters where the files are on the disk i.e. the front of the disk, but, those stray files clique had/s look out of place to me.

    a good idea to help cut down fragmented files is to make a separate partition for files which will change alot because they can fill the space they have been allocated and become fragmented. e.g. for P2P downloads, just anything which will change alot i think.

    i know dirms will move files close together but i don't know how it organises the files so they can be read faster. i do know it's good enough for me, and unless it screws things up, everyone else too. but, like i said i don't really know enough to argue either way. just defrag when it looks like it needs to be done, i personally don't think anyone should buy a defragger. and i don't mean people should use P2P to get a paid version for free :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  18. WSFuser

    WSFuser Registered Member

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    for ordinary use, the windows defragger would be sufficient. 3rd party defragmenters, however, offer much more in the way of scheduling and options. i know that O&O defragger has several modes, some of which can defrag ur disk based on file access or file modification. diskeeper can also set (cpu?) priorities on defragmentation jobs, and it can change ur MFT size as well.
     
  19. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Then you have no business making your statement.

    Makes a big difference to use a proper defragmenter.

    Read the papers at the Perfect disk web site.
    Other info is available at the web sites of , e.g., Diskeeper and O & O Defrag.

    Afrer using the trial, I purchased Perfect disk for $11.99(USA) AFTER rebate.
    A system will get more than enough improved performance to warrant spending $11.99.

    It does matter where files are on the disk.
     
  20. iceni60

    iceni60 ( ^o^)

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    fact#1 all you have done in this thread is be a troll

    fact#2 you haven't helped the OP one bit with the problem, just gone OT

    fact#3 you haven't backed up anything you have said with knowledge of the subject

    fact#4 i have helped the OP and fixed the problem

    fact#5 for some reason that's not good enough for you, because you want to be a troll and go OT

    fact#6 the defragmentor which comes with windows is a proper defragmentor
    fact# 7 that's the second time you have talked about the manual o_O the GUI doesn't do the defragmenting, it's just makes the program look pretty, i promise you that's the truth. it's just more trolling.

    fact# 8 i'm trying to help clique, not debate the worth of your favourite defragmentor. i really, really don't care one bit about Perfect Disk. i don't even use Windows, so i think i'll pass on your offer to trial Perfect Disk. and no i'm not even going to read the manual :rolleyes:

    how have you helped clique in this thread? i really don't understand what you want from me?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2006
  21. Phant0m

    Phant0m Registered Member

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    Windows XP Disk Defragmenter is efficient for average user to keep the PC at peak performance, and it is no additional cost for us poor people.

    See image attachments, first image is of a before and after shot, second shot is the aftermath of running Dave's Disk Defragmenter (both in Windows normal mode) an even better freeware solution.

    Sysinternals System File Defragmenter is also another good freeware solution to be used as an addition.

    I’m no way saying some of the listed shareware Defrags solutions aren’t superior, whether it’s fast performance and/or more effective.
     

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  22. Detox

    Detox Retired Moderator

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    Howdy gents; please let us be keep on topic and refrain from getting personal in this thread.
     
  23. Osaban

    Osaban Registered Member

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    Perfect Disk retails at 39.95 $
    Diskeeper at 29.95
    O&O at 44.95

    I agree with Iceni that the Windows Defrag is free and probably enough for most situations. It takes an awful long time to defrag though.

    If I could get Perfect Disk for 11.99 I would buy it straight away, and 40$ seems a lot for a defrag.
     
  24. Howard Kaikow

    Howard Kaikow Registered Member

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    Buy it at www.amazon.com and get a $20 rebate.
    I was able to do so a few daze ago.
     
  25. NGRhodes

    NGRhodes Registered Member

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    To cut a long story short.

    NTFS allocates free space for files to grow, when files are written, it is designed to allow/use fragmented space to prevent files fragmenting which is a bigger performance hit than space fragmentation.
    If you consolidate the space perfectly, all that can happen is that any file that is subsequently modified will fragment, there is no space for the files to grow.

    If there are plenty of space fragments NTFS will try and allocate the fragments as nearby as possible (improves chances of the disc and os caches caching the file), when space is consolidated the file will have to spread its fragments much further, which is a big peformance hit in head seeks... on disc caching and OS caching is more likely to totally miss caching the fragments.

    When I will have time I will write in detail about how NTFS allocates files.
     
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