deepfreeze VS shadow defender

Discussion in 'sandboxing & virtualization' started by demoneye, Dec 30, 2007.

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  1. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Are that the PLENTY solutions ? I read only one, I can't use.
     
  2. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    Look Erik,

    Here's the deal - I'm not doing all your freaking homework for you. I'm not your damn servant. And yes - there are plenty of solutions out there.

    They start with FD-ISR, which you already own and have christened perfect, so you're done. Then there is FD-ISR Rescue - which is perfectly fine for a typical user like yourself. However, don't like it since it has fewer features than FD-ISR, but that's moot isn't it, since you have the full version. Right?

    Then there is any light virtualization (DF/Returnil/ShadowDefender/PowerShadow/ShadowUser Pro) + imaging/cloning solution (Acronis TI/StorageProtect/lots of free backup and/or clone ISO's/etc). See how I've actually referred to a nominal part of this thread's topic? I realize that it's not in context, but I've at least made the effort. This category runs from pure free to pure paid solution. Your appear to have an issue with these since restoration takes a few minutes, or perhaps the image is a day or two old, or perhaps it takes a little planning to have a recent backup available. Then there are all those fantastic scenarios in which light virtualization fails and you find the BIOS somehow infected with a submolecular rootkill with near magical powers...., which will appear in the year 2030 and immediately infect the three users still on Win XP.

    Then there is pure imaging, perhaps with rapid scheduled incrementals, and the heck with trying to do a in-place restore. Nuke and pave the system from an off system image.

    This is only scratching the surface, but you've already dismissively commented on virtually all of them on this site because frankly, you head in heels in love with a particular solution and now that the full version of FD-ISR is no longer commercially available, you're acting like the jilted lover. Not that it really matters to you since YOU HAVE A COPY!

    As for WHS not being for you? I happen to like unattended and automated backup of all my home machines nightly, being able to retain an embarrassing number is in-time snapshots due to it's single instance strategy, and frankly, I don't care if it's one your single minded radar screen or not.

    Blue
     
  3. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Let's talk about DeepFreeze/ShadowDefender as a mean to try new softwares and without personal comments, they bore me.
    That's what users do in practice, try new stuff and when they don't like, they want to get rid of it without traces instead of using Add/Remove.
    All these ISR-softwares are used for that purpose.

    I claim that you can't use these software to test legitimate reboot-softwares and don't tell me they don't exist.
    How is the user going to test these software without risks ?
     
  4. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    At present, neither allow this option is the application installation procedure requires a system restart. You know that, I know that, so actually what's the point discussing it? There's nothing to discuss at the present time.
    I could care less what bores you.
    No, that's not what users primarily employ applications such as Deep Freeze or Shadow Defender for. They primarily use them for last state rollback after simple usage. In addition, there's nothing intrinsically problematic with using Add/Remove.
    That what don't exist? Software that requires a reboot or users who would like to test some software? The former certainly exist, as does the latter, and I don't believe I've ever said that neither exist.
    As already noted, FD-ISR Rescue allow them to do exactly this. Today. An image on an external drive allows anyone to plunder their main system at will and come back like nothing happened. Depending on their system, that could take minutes to tens of minutes. Anyone can do that today. They could keep a clone handy and perform a physical drive swap, or if a USB/Firewire boot is supported, boot from the external clone. As fast, if not faster than any other solution.

    If you want to eliminate all risk in performing any task on a computer, there's only one way to do that - turn the computer off and unplug it. There, problem solved.

    Blue
     
  5. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    The fact is that DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender can't be used for that purpose and that users have to rely on IB when they try a reboot-software.
    I wonder how practical this will be with a single HDD/partition of 300gb used space ? Can't be backup of 10 minuts.
     
  6. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    Why do you feel the need to put constraints on this? If those are your constraints, available options include:
    • FD-ISR full version - not currently available
    • FD-ISR Rescue
    • RollbackRx and it's clones
    • ShadowUser Pro (there's that low level access issue...)
    • The native OS system restore
    • MS Windows Steady State
    and that's with not looking around, none of these solutions are image backup, and all but the first are available to anyone. Each has different weaknesses, but you've placed artificial boundaries around the problem (1 drive, 300 GB, 10 minutes). If your objective is to provide a solution, my first advice would be to get realistic regarding constraints.

    Blue
     
  7. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    I thought the subject is DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender and what you can do with them, except boot-to-restore.
    DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender require a separation of system and data and that includes partitioning.
    There is alot more involved than these 2 softwares itself.
     
  8. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    The thread is about them, but you set the constraints with your post. I was politely answering your direct question with a direct answer. I'll refrain from using those niceties in the future and, yes, I'm being serious.
    Could you please point me to some documentation that states this is a structural requirement? Do you even know what you're talking about?
    Sure there is - if you wish to unnecessarily complicate things.

    Blue
     
  9. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    You can't live without Image Backup, unless you like to install your computer manually over and over again.
    And you will need that IB to protect you against reboot-softwares, when something goes wrong.
    To do that IB as quick as possible, you need a pure system partition without data, especially when your data has a large volume of 300gb for example.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2008
  10. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    You can't work with DeepFreeze without separating your system and data. Ask Rmus.
    And yes I know what I'm talking about. I use an ISR-software since March 2006.
     
  11. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    True and true - and eventually (it really is when, not if) you'll lose your personal files if you rely on the pure reinstall solution. So backup of some form is absolutely needed. However, it really doesn't need to be tightly integrated into everything else.
    I'd put it differently. It's needed for the first item (basically catastropic system failure - typically pure hardware failure), but it's available for this second need.
    It helps, but that's not needed.

    Blue
     
  12. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    There are plenty of ways to accomplish this without formally devoting the effort to creating a second thawed partition and performing a relocation of the Documents and Settings folder onto that thawed partition.

    The obvious is a mirror/synch to a removable drive. Yes, that's cheating in a way, viewed in another light, it's a completely viable alternate solution.

    The Enterprise level product also has another option referred to as ThawSpace which will accomplish this

    Blue
     
  13. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Some software corrupt your system partition, without a physical hardware failure and I needed my IB 4 times to restore my system partition, because ISR failed.
    I don't know anything but IB, because I can't fix a corrupted system manually.
    Don't agree.
     
  14. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Using another drive is the same as putting your data on another partition.
    I don't see the difference. You separated your data and the way you do it isn't important. If you don't do it, your data is gone after reboot.
     
  15. EASTER

    EASTER Registered Member

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    That one statement made my whole day, thanks guys for the heavy engagement and persistent follow ups. :)

    This topic wired tightly with these exchanges are important for me right now because i'm sitting on ready to install DEEP FREEZE but now have a slight apprehension i hope i see cleared up.

    I intend to install to a single, non-partitioned drive, my testing HD is wiped, formatted, and installed with basic security programs in place.

    I want to add DEEP FREEZE over these few security programs, like EQSecure (HIPS), maybe SandboxIE, maybe not, but defintely Faronic's Anti-Executable. What i dont want to find is that i need another partition to support this setup. No FD-ISR here, this is going to be a RAW install of what i mentioned. If theres a need to keep or update something then that's what the THAWED state is about right? I won't concern myself during the time of going THAWED to add programs and such, but am i going to experience something unexpected by turning off/on this app? I turn on/off AE to add to it's whitelist when installing a program, can one or either of you explain how working with DEEP FREEZE is going to be any different?

    And lastly, is it relevant, useful, or even needed to impliment AE in DF at all? Will they gel together without issue you think?

    This is not for me about separating data from system, it's about getting the best use/protection from DP, while AE + HIPS do their basic duties.

    Any thoughts, ideas?

    Also congrats BlueZannetti for going Red.
     
  16. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Easter,
    Any frozen system partition requires security softwares that stop the execution of as many as possible malwares, because you have already the perfect removal tool (= frozen partition). AE is certainly one of them, the rest is up to you. I don't know much about anti-malware and I still have room for one more.
    The philosophy is that all malwares, which bypassed your security softwares, will be removed during reboot.
    Preferable, no blacklist softwares, they require daily signature updates and are incomplete anyway.

    In contradiction to other members,
    1. I keep my frozen snapshot always ON and only turn it OFF, when I'm off-line.
    2. I don't exclude any object (folder or file) in my frozen snapshot, which would make it only vulnerable.
    That's how I keep my system partition clean.

    I would do this as DeepFreeze-user and ShadowDefender-user. Fortunately, I have something much better than these two as long it lasts of course.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  17. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    How do you plan to save data ?
     
  18. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    Erik,

    It's mainly convenience - not needing to reconfigure your system - and as you note, same result, different path. It's also a reflection of how I actually work. I generally carry a 100-200 GB portable drive with me to facilitate working across machines.

    Blue
     
  19. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    It befuddles me how we can take a product and basically tear it apart from A-Z to find out why it isnt worthy. We have done this over time with all the AV products, AS, firewalls and all the in-between. People come, lurk here, to find out information and to make a decision on basic security products for their PC. Please keep in mind that most just want a starting point and we seem to give them a ending point. I really wonder if the average user ever gets a simple answer instead of the reason as to why your PC will not save the world in the end.

    Now it is the virtual products turn and as they start out looking promising, we disect them untill we find out why they belong in the junk pile heap like all the others mentioned above. I guess in the end, the message we sometimes send is just turn it on, and use nothing. AVs serve their purpose and ARE needed. Firewalls, antispyware, specialty products ARE needed. New technology like Shadow Defender and Returnil, oh, and yes Deep Freeze, ARE needed.

    As a consumer you should read and look for what suits your needs because in the end, THEY will work and only you can decide which fit your needs based on your level of comfort in using them. No, nothing can promise total protection, just like a vitamin cant promise I will live to be a 100. But I take them anyway, for good measure.
     
  20. BlueZannetti

    BlueZannetti Registered Member

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    trjam,

    That's a good point to keep in mind. The tearing apart phase is useful to separate how a product works or it purported to work from how it actually plays out in the field. The deficiencies that appear are useful for all - for users so they know precisely what they're obtaining (and not obtaining), and for vendors to observe how users actually try to use their products.

    The problem is occurs when we/someone tries to extrapolate how a potential gap will play out. It's akin to those miniscule differences in AV detection that many read all too much into. Same here. The jump from identified difference/gap to not worthy is one that's generally made too quickly and without due consideration to whether that difference/gap presents a current pragmatic issue.

    Blue
     
  21. Long View

    Long View Registered Member

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    OT: whilst I sympathize with your concerns I think that a misquote from George Washington is in order here "We must take man as we find him, not as we would wish him to be"

    To do otherwise would mean that Wilders would die for lack of acceptable posts.

    Personally I would settle for a few more IMOs in place of "XYZ is without doubt the greatest piece of software and everything else sucks"

    perhaps next year?
     
  22. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

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    Amen to that.:)
     
  23. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Easter, the answer to this question, is it depends on how you are going to work. If nothing on the machine changes, it will work fine. From what I saw DF automatically protects all drives, when it is installed. This is good based on it's purpose, but bad for say me.

    The way I work, even with ShadowDefender, I leave it mostly off. This may be way I have seen some of the activation problem mentioned in another thread. I only turn it on when I am doing something, I consider higher risk. For me the ability to commit is important, as sometime in the middle of that, I will make a schedule change in my access database, and it's nice to be able to commit that file, and not worry about it.

    Bascially, I use FDISR/SP as my always on Shadow, and SD/Returnil as my temporary extra protection shadow.

    What you are asking about should work technically. Just a question of how it fits your intended purpose.

    Pete
     
  24. demoneye

    demoneye Registered Member

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    welp what u think the best solution is use MIRROR 5 + DF lol

    better than all this ISR stuf and we done :)
     
  25. ErikAlbert

    ErikAlbert Registered Member

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    Tearing apart ? I'm just discussing these softwares like any other software and everybody has another approach to protect his computer.
    Never get emotional about softwares, look at them and study them and my conclusion was that DeepFreeze is less than my actual solution.
    The reader has to make a decision, not me and there is alot more involved than just installing such software and run it.
    I can easily evaluate these softwares, because I'm working with an ISR-software that has the maximum of possibilities. I don't step back, I like to go forward.
    If it is too complicated, choose the product you like and use it the way you like.
    I have my own way to use such softwares and I already noticed that other users don't do it the way I do it.
    For the record : I'm not obsessed by FDISR, I replace it immediately when I find something better, but there is NO alternative, that is how much I like FDISR.
    FDISR is DEAD and I have to find a replacement in the next 5 years.
    I just don't understand why you all get so emotional about softwares, to me they are just tools and every software sucks, but some suck more than others and yes FDISR sucks too, I have a list of complaints.
    I'm just trying to find a software that does its job, the way I like it. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
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