Curious...?

Discussion in 'FirstDefense-ISR Forum' started by smallhagrid, Feb 14, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    64
    Location:
    Vermont, America
    I see all the kudos here for this now defunct product and this leaves me with 3 questions; perhaps someone might enlighten me with some good info, please ?

    1 - Has anyone found anything as good as, or even close to it - to replace this wonderful utility ?

    2 - What were the major differences between the -ISR and Rescue versions ?

    3 - Why did this stuff and it's parent company simply vanish suddenly ?

    Thanks !

    mark
     
  2. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Excellent Questions!

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  3. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,039
    Hi Mark

    I'll take a shot.

    In my opinion, no. I don't like the Rollback family. I haven't seen anything else I like short of imaging.


    Two major differences. FDISR, allows multiple snapshots, and off disk archives. Rescue only has one other snapshot, and no archives. For me the multiple snapshots weren't an issue, but archives, was a show stopper.



    Wasn't that sudden, but the main issue was the market would only accept a certain price level, and it wasn't high enough to cover support costs.


    Pete
     
  4. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    64
    Location:
    Vermont, America
    Wow

    Thank you Pete.
    It saddens me to hear when something that is the best of it's kind just vanishes without any traces remaining or good/better alternatives.

    I know that some developers sometimes change their stuff to freeware with only user/group support just so their stuff can stay 'alive'; I guess that was not the case here at all. A shame.:'( :'( :'(

    smallhagrid
     
  5. PoetWarrior

    PoetWarrior Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Posts:
    335
    As a result of their departure, I've concluded that imaging and restoring from an Acronis TI Home 20011 recovery disk is the next best thing for me. I'm not sure why, but FD-ISR was a little slower for me compared to certain imaging programs for Windows 7.

    From the disk I am able to do imaging and restoring in increments. Pretty fast too. In fact, I just recovered from installing a game yesterday and remarked to my wife just how fast the restoration took place.

    I can remember the first time I installed FD-ISR on Win XP; it was a very good thing.
     
  6. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Posts:
    9,057
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Peter is right. I have copies for both FD-ISR and FD-Rescue copied to 2 different USB keys. I would rather quit drinking then lose my copies to this software. Well, maybe.;)
     
  7. trjam

    trjam Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Posts:
    9,057
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I never understood why a big named vendor didnt work with Todd to acquire rights to it to be used in their product. Think about it, something like Eset, Norton or Kaspersky with a suite that also had a module for FD-Rescue. Would have been a awesome product. Oh well.
     
  8. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    64
    Location:
    Vermont, America
    :D This is sooo cute:D !!!:
    I am lucky I have a boot CD of an older version of Acronis TI; I tried the 'home' version - even hoped that sandboxing they bragged of would be good - but it turned out to be a real nuisance so I just stick with the boot CD.

    No '7' or veeester for this guy; I'd have even stayed with win2kpro if'n the drivers for my h/w didn't demand xp.

    Next OS for me will be some flavor of Linux; the loss of user control in win32 and win64 has become unacceptable to me - and what they did to explorer is simply a criminal thing.
    Those newer OSs just :argh: hurt:argh: to look at or use for me, so no thanks.

    smallhagrid
     
  9. carfal

    carfal Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2009
    Posts:
    141
    Sorry Pete but you'll have to eat your words. :p


    Horizon have recently released a new version of Rollback RX Server Edition located here.

    http://www.horizondatasys.com/608785.ihtml

    I did a very short test run with it in a VM. From what i saw its based on FD Rescue (Aka. FD ISR) technology. I think it only allows snapshots to be stored offline though. If you want to know more you'll have to test it yourself.

    It looks like the closest thing to FD ISR your going to get for now.

    As for myself.....Rollback Rx Rules. :D :D :D
     
  10. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,039
    Naw, not eating any words at this point.

    First, I suspect the snapshots are not stored off disk, but stored on the drive like one of the Acronis features. I suspect that because of the boot menu.

    Second. The price. $295 for a single license. No thanks.

    Pete
     
  11. pratzert

    pratzert Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Posts:
    409
    I thought that Todd said that the software HAD been purchased by someone else and would be offering it, or some iteration of it, to mainly very large corporate businesses.

    It was hinted that individual users would never be willing, or able, to afford to purchase it.

    I never heard anything else after that.

    Has anyone heard from Todd lately ?
     
  12. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Posts:
    64
    Location:
    Vermont, America
    Please pardon the exactness of my memory (or lack thereof) - but in the past I tried RollBack Rx™ and was hugely disappointed.

    The version I tried was very full-featured according to it's claims, but I never got to see all it's great stuff because it became a struggle just to access my poor PC after I installed it !!!

    Boot problems and BSODs were the rule until I eventually managed to get free of the thing.

    Later I got email from them about a new version and searched a bit to find out if it was less buggy - but only found that they'd dumbed it down and removed features for this 'new & improved' version...:rolleyes: :eek: o_O

    I just looked again at their site and frankly I am still not impressed.

    One thing I always like to see for system-level products is clearly delineated list of system requirements; these folks don't seem to feel that needs a set-off space on their pages from what I saw.

    Also, for what they charge I would think that they could make it so that when a potential user follows the site mapping via the ->'s backwards that they don't get garbage pages like I did when going from server version->products pages.

    This reminds me of a couple of adventures I had with bad antivirus products in the past - ones that started out great, but as time passed became fubar and the big loosers end up being the paying users...like me !

    Those kinds of things leave harsh memories which are not easily forgotten.

    Last of all - did anyone besides me notice that in that RollBack Rx™ server edition's 1st screeny it shows Grub4DOS ?!?!? Too funny.
    Maybe it adds an open-source bootmanager when installing it's $300 self ?
     
  13. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Posts:
    2,549
    The only program that uses a similar, file based, ISR technology is Roxio BackOnTrack (Instant Restore).

    Rollback RX Server Edition is not an ISR product but an imaging product; a customised/licensed version of Keriver 1-Click Restore Pro.
    Keriver 1-Click Restore Pro= 20$
    Rollback RX Server Edition= 300$o_O

    Panagiotis
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  14. sindbad

    sindbad Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Posts:
    17
    Dear Panagiotis,

    I had never heard of ISR, until I joined this forum. Can you tell me more about this in detail?

    I checked Roxio BackOnTrack but I only came across horror stories about it. It is sold but not updated. Are the horror stories true?

    How does Roxio BackOnTrack differ from ISR, please in detail?

    How do, both the above mentioned programs differ from EASEUS ToDo Workstation Snapshot, in detail?

    Thanks for taking your time and teaching us. At the same time, thank you for your patience!

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  15. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Posts:
    4,048
    Location:
    SouthCentral PA
    Panagiotis, have you ever tested the Farstone product Restoreit7? If so, how does it compare to FirstDefense and BackOnTrack, that is, is it also file based like those two? I read the info on their website but could not figure out with the info given how the darn thing works.

    Thanks,
    Acadia
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  16. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Hi Acadia,

    I download it and tested it as trail. They used to have the snapshot build into the Total Recovery 7. Now they are two separate programs, Restore IT 7 and Total Recovery 7 and they co-exist with each other. The former one is a Pre-OS and it modifies the MBR, and a sub-console is available on boot for snapshots. The later one allows to add entry to the BCD store and the sub-console is available with the Windows boot menu, for imaging/restore/clone/.....

    The Restore IT 7 created hidden virtual drives each 2gb to a total of 48gb to 78gb based on space available on the "D" partition. It disables the Windows defrag and system restore. It takes snapshots within less than a minute and restores it within two minutes.

    The EASEUS ToDo Workstation is one product. It also crates a virtual drive on "D" partition from 40gb to 130gb, which is based on available space. It creates only one hidden virtual drive. It modifies the MBR and a sub-console is available as Pre-OS on boot. So, all functions such as snapshots/imaging/restore/cloning is available on boot.

    One can run a chkdsk, defrag the system drive. However, they are working on that where the snapshots resides such as "D" partition, it can be defrag too. It also allows for system restore to be on. It takes snapshots within less than a minute and restores it within two minutes.

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  17. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Posts:
    4,048
    Location:
    SouthCentral PA
    Thanks, KOR, sounds to me like RestoreIt makes some wicked changes to ones system. :doubt:

    Acadia
     
  18. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    I am still interested in your question to Panagiotis, that how does it compares FirstDefense and BackOnTrack?

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  19. carfal

    carfal Registered Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2009
    Posts:
    141
    Geez, i really fired eveybody up. :D :argh:

    Pete, to be more precise, the snapshots for RollBack Rx Server Edition are stored on any drive besides the system drive your installing on. Im not certain if you can store on a USB drive.

    smallhagrid, your experience with Rollback RX is unfortunate, certainly not the rule!

    All i can tell you is that i have been using Rollback for 5 years now. I've had some moments for sure but i percevered because IMO it is definitely a better product than FD-ISR. Dont get me wrong. FD is a great product but the technology it uses to take its snapshots is just too slow. This is because it literally has to copy each and every folder/file, an image in effect. Yes once you take your first snapshot, updating it takes less time but it still takes way to long when you compare Rollback's less than 5 sec snapshot Taking and a simple reboot to load up another snapshot.

    In reality the 2 technologies are radically different so comparing them is very difficult. I even ran FD inside Rollback for a while just to humor myself but like i said, find FD just too inefficient for general use. The incrimental nature of how Rollback takes its snapshots is simply a more usable (and superior)snapshot mechanism. Each snapshot only uses the space that differential data between each snapshot requires. Where as you take a snapshot with FD and the entire drive C: is copied.

    Judging from the comments preceding this post i think i can safely say that most of you are not intimately familiar with Rollback. If you were you would know that you can actually setup Rollback's snapshots to "mimic" a FD like enviroment. The advantage being that if you have 5 snapshots setup as 5 OS's, then you can still take incremetal snapshots and whats more, you can Rollback within the snapshot tree without effecting the other snapshot OS's. There are other advantages i could list regarding this setup but i think i have enraged people enough.

    Now i may or may not have blown some people's minds with the last paragraph but i think I need to remind myself that this is a FD forum. :p

    I want to say on a parting note that die hard FD users find is very difficult to wrap their minds around the major differences on how FD takes snapshots and how Rollback takes its snapshots. Because of this, when people have tried Rollback they are utterly confused and ask questions like

    "Where does Rollback save its snapshots?"

    "Can i export my snapshots"

    They are still thinking in terms of FD. Unfortunately the answers require alot of techical explanation which usually leaves people even more confused.

    OK. I think i've said enough to enlist the wrath of a few users here.

    Please....be gentle. :D :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  20. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Posts:
    2,549
    Sure.
    ISR stands for Instant System Recovery.
    There are various methods to achieve this:
    File based ISRs: FirstDefense-ISR, Windows (ME and XP) System Restore, Roxio's Instant Restore.
    FirstDefense-ISR makes a copy of all the files/folders of the OS.
    Windows (ME and XP) System Restore creates copies of the registry and selected types of files.
    Roxio's InstantRestore monitors all the changes that happen on every file/folder and create copies of the registry and of the files/folders that change
    Sector based ISRs: Norton's Goback, Farstone's RestoreIt, Rollback RX, Windows System Restore (Vista and 7), and others.
    GoBack keeps track of the sectors to create the snapshots, and during the restore, restores only the changed sectors.
    Farstone's RestoreIt use a similar technology with GoBack.
    Rollback RX uses sector blocking and write redirection, to achieve it's snapshots. It is an hybrid of sector based and virtualization based ISR; the OS is unaware of all the snapshots but the current one.
    Windows System Restore (Vista and 7) keeps track of the sectors that change to create it's snapshots, but when restoring it does not restore sectors but the files that where changed.
    Virtualization based ISRs: VMware and Virtualbox use it on virtual machines, and VBoot on real system (virtual disk container). Boot to restore (Returnil, Shadowdefender,etc.) software are part of this category. All these virtualise the hard disk to a container and redirect the reads/writes in that container.

    Some are true. It has restoration problems when the file/folder permissions do not allow it to restore the files. The latest version sold works fine with 7 and was released in January 2010 (if I remember correctly).
    It uses an ntfs filter driver to monitor the changes of the files/folders and creates snapshots that contain only the registry and the changed files/folders.
    FD-ISR does not need any driver because it backs up everything and is an on demand only ISR.

    Have not tested it yet, but it seems to be a sector based ISR similar to goback and restoreit.
    You are welcome.

    Panagiotis
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  21. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Posts:
    4,048
    Location:
    SouthCentral PA
    WOW, what an excellent explanation and breakdown, Panagiotis, thanks. :cool:

    Acadia
     
  22. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Posts:
    2,549
    @ Acadia
    You are very welcome. :)

    ps. why some people are hard core fans of FD-ISR? Simple because, it adds zero overhead to the system, since it does not need a driver to work (zero conflicts), and it is file based and not sector based so there is no problem with defrags.

    Panagiotis
     
  23. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Posts:
    4,048
    Location:
    SouthCentral PA
    KOR, do you mean that RestoreIt creates a new, hidden partition on your primary drive, OR, can you use a second, internal hard drive to hold all of the snapshots? Also, concerning defrag, I assume that you can still defrag manually without setting up a schedule?

    Thanks,
    Acadia
     
  24. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Posts:
    2,986
    Location:
    Oman
    Dear Panagiotis, thank you for such a detailed explanation. I am sure it will take me days to properly digest what you have written above. I might have to come back later and ask some more question.

    Once again many thanks!

    Kind regards,

    KOR!


    Doesn't that make you proud to be part of such a generous and knowledgeable community. And, add to that the eagerness to share this wealth of acquired knowledge.

    Best regards,

    KOR!
     
  25. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Posts:
    17,039
    Hi Carfal and all

    First to clear up a mis impression. I am very familiar with how Rollback works, I've tested it thoroughly. I am just not comfortable with their mechanism to identify and put stuff in sectors, when windows knows nothing about them. I also had some issues when testing.

    I am ignoring for now the server product as at it's price level it's strictly an enterprise product. I do find it noteworthy they needed to do that, as it suggests their regular rollback product never gained a foot hold in the enterprise market.

    As to comparison of Rollback RX vs FDISR. Can Rollback take a snapshot faster, yep huge difference, even compared to a FDISR update it's faster. But to me FDISR is more robust. Note also I only ever keep on secondary FDISR snapshot, and all it is is a bare windows shell. Everything else is in off disk archives.

    Now what have I done with FDISR that I would challenge you to do with Rollback:

    1: Upgraded my primary snapshot to Vista(I still run XP). Then booting to my secondary and using an off disk archive, I restored and returned my machine to XP via the FDISR restore. Took 30 minutes, but it worked. I did t his as a test.

    2. A more real world use. I formatted my system, and did a clean windows stall from a Windows XP CD that was way out of date. No service packs, no updates, no activation. I didn't activate. All I did was install FDISR. Then I created a secondary snapshot, by restoring the secondary archive. Booted to the secondary snapshot, and restored my primary snapshot, from my primary archive. Booted back to primary, and my machine was exactly like it was when I started.

    For my uses, FDISR is very much the better product. It's a matter of individual need.

    Pete
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.