Clone disk works - restore partitions does not

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by georgemm, May 26, 2008.

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  1. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    - First, on a new 160 GB SATA disk we installed Windows XP, on a new Quad-core PC.
    - SATA disk has a 11 GB partition for windows only. And a second big partition. We created an image from that partition, using ATI 10.

    - Everything fine so far. Next we tried out to see if the restoring works. On a second new SATA larger than the first one (320 GB), unpartitioned, we performed a restore. We unplug all the drives except the new one. The system didn't boot. (I didn't know about the warning you should not let windows restart with both drives, so maybe we did that. Acronis should warn you on this)

    - Next we erased the larger SATA test disk, and tried a clone disk from the smaller SATA. This time it worked perfectly.
    - Now again a second try - restoring that partition image which didn't worked the first time. Now strangely, the partition restoring works.

    - But two days later , a second partition image created from the 160 GB SATA, it doesn't work. This time though, it boots and stops at the logon screen. It seems that partition image restore works only if you make a full disk clone first, and you have to repeat that every time ? That doesn't make sense.
    Or it has something to do with that MBR thing ? ATI 10 ask you about that when you restore, but it only lets you choose the partition / or the MBR.
     
  2. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    georgemm,

    When you created the image, did you have partitions on the second HD that were visible to the OS on the first HD?
     
  3. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    It's a little different than most stories I read here.

    - First, all the imaging and restoring were done on a second, older Pentium 4 PC. After the operation was completed, the HDD was removed and attached to the new PC.
    - The second HDD (the 320 GB) had a first partition with the previous successful restore. The rest of the space was unallocated

    , while the HDD from which the image was created , has 2 partitions. One active - with windows, and one - normal with data.
     
  4. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    georgemm,

    I need to get this clear so I can help you.

    You installed WinXP on a new Quad-core PC. 160 GB HD.
    You removed this HD and installed it in a Pentium 4 PC.
    You created an image of the C: drive (partition).
    Where was this image written? To the data partition on the 160 GB HD?
    You installed the 320 GB HD in the Pentium 4 PC. Or was it installed before you created the image of the C: drive?
    You restored the image to the 320 GB HD.
    You removed the 320 GB HD and installed it in the Quad-core PC.

    Is that correct or am I completely off track?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  5. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    First I have to mention that my girlfriend does all the operations, she is far away in a different country and I'm directing her through the phone. Don't laugh, it's difficult but it's possible.

    I will try to comment on this :

    You installed WinXP on a new Quad-core PC. 160 GB HD. - Yes
    You removed this HD and installed it in a Pentium 4 PC. - installed ? better said attached, since the old Pentium 4 has an old HDD on it's own, with an old WinXP . So the 160 GB SATA was attached only as a second HDD. The ATI 10 is installed on the old Pentium 4 / old HDD combo.

    You created an image of the C: drive (partition). - Yes
    Where was this image written? To the data partition on the 160 GB HD? - I'm not 100 % sure, but I think yes.
    You installed the 320 GB HD in the Pentium 4 PC. Or was it installed before you created the image of the C: drive? - I think, after the backup was finished, the 160 GB was removed, the larger 320 GB was put in place.
    You restored the image to the 320 GB HD. - Yes, only on the first partition. The rest of the space was unallocated. Just an hour ago, after reading some more on this forum, we created a partition on the unallocated space, to try and mimic the original 160 GB from which the partition image was created. I read that the windows is confused because it doesn't find a second partition.
    You removed the 320 GB HD and installed it in the Quad-core PC. - Yes, as a test . And I repeat, a full clone disk works.

    And I wanna add that I read some more just now, on the forums, and it seems that ATI 10 does not have the ability to restore a C: partition on a second new HDD. Only a full disk with all the partition. Else, the partition restored is not bootable because of the MBR or something like that.
     
  6. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    georgemm,

    Thanks for those answers. I understand you are testing and I'm pretty clear why your testing failed.

    Want to try this?
    Install (attach) the 160 GB HD in your Quad-core PC.
    Install (attach) the 320 GB HD in your Quad-core PC as a second HD.
    Create a data partition in the unallocated space of your second HD.
    Delete the 11 GB partition on the second HD. There must be no partition seen when the image is created.
    Create an image of your C: drive, writing the image to the data partition on the second HD. As you don't have TI installed you can do this from the TI boot restore CD.
    Remove the 160 GB HD from the computer and move the data cable from the 320 GB HD SATA port to the previous 160 GB HD SATA port on the motherboard.
    Boot to the TI restore CD and restore the image to the 11 GB of unallocated space. Don't worry about restoring the MBR. It doesn't matter.
    Boot to WinXP. It will work.
     
  7. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    Thanks for replying. Can you repeat the whole guide but instead of "TI boot CD" we use the second Pentium 4 PC where Acronis is installed ? The reason I'm saying this is :
    - One : she never used the Acronis Boot CD and she is not very computer savy, especially when dealing with non-windows environment.
    - second : for a few days there will not be a CD Drive (its just being replaced)

    Or the boot cd environment is mandatory ?
     
  8. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    georgemm,

    Using the other computer is one of your problems.

    She could install TI on the C: drive of the 160 GB HD. Using the TI CD for the restore is essential unless you want problems.
     
  9. jonyjoe81

    jonyjoe81 Registered Member

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    Long story short, You had a "partition ID drive letter change" problem. It happens with windows xp and true image. You need to follow all the steps perfectfully everytime or you going to run into them.

    I never do clones, I only restore individual partitions. Occasionally I encounter these "partition ID drive letter change" problems that prevent the restored drive from booting (it will hang/reboot at the logon screen). I don't waste my time in troubleshooting "what cause the partition ID drive letter to change" , I just use a "boot corrector" to fix the problem. It's a boot cd that boots up the computer and can get into the registry of the non-booting drive and change the partition ID drive letter (takes at most 5 minutes to fix). Once the "system partition ID drive letter" is changed back to match the "mounted devices drive letter" , a simple reboot will get the restored drive to bootup. The "boot corrector" has never failed me, it has saved me hours of work.

    It's just another option for you. For me the price of the "boot corrector" was justified (it even comes with an excellent partition software), even though I've only used it a couple of times. But it makes me confident that I can restored a hard drive everytime. I consider it essential for restoring windows xp. The latest build of the "boot corrector" can be found in "paragon partition manager version 9.0".

    The only thing I agree about with Brian, is that you do need a cdrom in your computer. True image is of extremely limited use if it doesn't have the capability of the boot cd. You can never rely on running all your backups or restores through the windows environment. In the tests you've been running, it looks like "drive letters problems" are the only thing you have encountered, luckily those are easy to fix.
     
  10. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    If all else fail, of course, we will use that CD. As I said, If I clone the entire disk, without using an image, it works. But I want this test restore to be successful with a partition image, so I know that we can rely on this method in the future.

    Maybe first, there was a drive letter change problem, as I didn't know about that, but as I read further on this forums, I understood that you have to avoid booting the first time with the restored drive, and another drive with windows at the same time. So in the following tests, as soon as the restoring was finished, the PC was shut down, al the drives removed except the drive with the restored partition.

    That should avoid the drive letter change problem, isn't it ?

    I will try to get back here with a schematic animated gif. To explain better what I wanna acomplish. And as I remember, 4 years ago - last time I did that with Paragon Drive Backup, all went well, but only with the condition on using Sector-By-Sector option. Otherwise it didn' worked. So maybe I need to activate in ATI 10 - the same sector by sector option. But as I found out, ATI 10 doesn't have that.
     
  11. GroverH

    GroverH Registered Member

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    Georgemm,
    If you have TrueImage installed, you can use it to create a bootable FlashDrive which could suffice in place of the Bootable Rescue CD. The bootable flashdrive is not machine specific so it could be created on any of your computers which has TrueImage installed.
     
  12. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    georgemm,

    You did have a drive letter issue but these can be prevented by using correct technique. There were two place that could have produced this issue.

    Letting the OS on the 160 GB HD see the partition on the 320 GB HD before imaging.

    Letting the OS on the 320 GB HD see the OS on the 160 GB HD at the first boot.
     
  13. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    Sorry I never replied . Problem solved. Unfortunately not with Acronis. And it's too bad because I was recommending to everyone to switch to Acronis. I even tried with Acronis 11 and sector by sector method. Same result.

    5 years ago the same story happened : Except I didn't know about Acronis and I was trying with Norton Ghost. Didn't work, then I tried with Paragon, didn't work. Than I tried again with Paragon but with Sector By Sector. Worked perfectly.

    A week ago I recommend that to my friend who was very disappointed with my "imaging software solution" - she said it's not worth the trouble, time and money. Finally she gave in and tried one more time with the new Paragon - with sector by sector method. Worked perfect.

    I honestly believe that if you are restoring the image to THE SAME HDD, Acronis works . The problem comes when you will restore to a new HDD. Acronis 11 introduced the sector by sector method. But since Paragon have this for some years now, seems that they had the time to perfect it.

    (I didn't tried with that bootable disc method yet. I need to find some time to test that also - because in the last 2 years, all my images are made with Acronis. Hope I'll never be force to find out if they works or not).
     
  14. jonyjoe81

    jonyjoe81 Registered Member

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    If you know how to repair the "partition ID drive letters", you don't have to worry about "sector by sector" or backing up the mbr or any other unnecessary stuff that confuses everybody.

    Weill at least your friend now has a "boot corrector" with her "paragon bootcd", theorectically she can fix any "partition ID drive letters" she might encounter with paragon drive backup or true image. As long as she understands the power of the "boot corrector" she should have a 100 percent reliable backup/restoration system. At most it will take 5 minutes to get the restored drive to bootup.

    No matter what anyone here in the forums say, "drive letter problems" are a common occurence when restoring windows xp to a different hard drive or partition. I see the same problem every week on this forums "half the people in the forums can't be having user errors". I learn how to fix the problem and now true image is 100 percent reliable for me.

    As far as doing the backup or restoration with the true image boot cd, it won't make a difference. I've gotten drive letter problems with both methods. The only method that will guarantee that you won't have problems is to restore the image back on to the same hard drive/same partition. But I/or most users will rarely have a situation where they have to do that type of restoration.
     
  15. Xpilot

    Xpilot Registered Member

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    On the whole this is a very orderly and polite support group. I would normally send a private message to someone who has got something wrong and is giving bad advice.
    However in this case I will state my concerns in the clear. Joneyjoe, Several members have gently hinted that you are assuming there are drive letter problems time after time when there is in fact no such problem at all and that the solution lies elsewhere.
    You make statements as facts which are just not true. You push for users to install "Just boot corrector" in circumstances that are completely inappropriate and this wastes their time in finding the best solution.

    How you get drive letter problems is something that only you know. All I know that making drive or partition backup images does not cause any such problem.
    Restoring to the same drive, a bigger drive or a smaller drive does not give rise to drive letter problems. For that matter normally no problems at all.
    I speak from the experience of restoring literally a thousand time to PC and laptops. If you just follow the restore wizards no drive letter problems occur.
    Even if the user makes a mistake in say partition selection and somehow does arrive at a non- bootable position. A review of of what they actually did will usually point to the solution. If it is still unclear then a suggestion that the restore is run again will in all probability give them the chance to correct things the second time.

    So Joneyjoe please give your inappropriate pushing of your favourite boot corrector a rest and be a real help by finding out what the real problems are and only then give advice.

    Xpilot
     
  16. DwnNdrty

    DwnNdrty Registered Member

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    Sometime back it was thought that a dual booting system might make TI spawn drive letter changes in the process of making Backups and Restores.

    So just for "$h1ts and grins", two weeks ago I did a dual boot system on a spare laptop. The drive was partitioned into two, Vista on one and XP on the other.

    In over half a dozen Backups and Restores using the Bart flavor of True Image ver 9, there was never a problem booting up to either OS after an Image was restored.
     
  17. jonyjoe81

    jonyjoe81 Registered Member

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    I never give bad advice, I only throw out options on fixing the problem. I can tell them to "read the manual" or "read one of the "guides" to perform a proper "backup and restore" , but if I see an OBVIOUS problem that is fixable, I will point it out.

    If you do "clones" everytime than you "might" not encounter any drive letter change problems. I never do clones. I don't see why I need to clone a 500gb hard drive when I only want to restore a 20gb partition. I can live with the occasional drive letter problem.

    something is causing drive letter problems.

    the cause of the problem is unimportant, I only care about "how to fix the problem". In this post the original problem was never resolved, even after all the repairs and countless restorations. In this situation a "boot corrector" would have fix the problem in 5 minutes. Just like many people here in the forums who recommend a "bartpe" to assist true image , I recommend a "boot corrector" also to assist true image. Whatever it takes to get a restored drive to boot. Knowledge is power. The more information that someone has, the better the decision that can be made.
     
  18. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    jonyjoe81,

    In this thread, georgemm, was trying to learn how to restore images. He would not have benefited by correcting his mistakes with a drive letter change. Sure, his OS might have booted, but he would not have learned how to correctly restore an image.

    In this forum, experienced members never have drive letter issues when they restore images. As you have frequent drive letter issues I suggest you start a thread asking for assistance. We'd be glad to help but we'd need detailed information on what you are doing with your hardware, partitions and TI that is causing your problems.
     
  19. K0LO

    K0LO Registered Member

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    :oops: That problem bit me once :oops:

    However, I learned a lot from the experience. Actually, it's Windows that does the deed. Once you figure out how Windows assigns drive letters then it is so simple to avoid this, and you'll never have the problem again.

    And therein lies the heart of this issue. Let me give you an analogy. If I were to hike in areas with lots of poisonous snakes, wouldn't I be better off learning about the snakes and how to avoid them? If we follow your advice, it would be "I don't worry about the snakes. If I get bit then I have anti-venom". Sorry; I'd rather not get bitten in the first place.
     
  20. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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  21. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    georgemm,

    Nice movie. I don't like the use of a second computer but does the method work with your hardware? It certainly won't with IBM/HP/Compaq laptops due to different CHS geometry between the laptops and the second desktop computer.
     
  22. georgemm

    georgemm Registered Member

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    It doesn't work. Not even with sector by sector from Acronis 11. But it works without any error whatsoever with Paragon sector by sector (I never even bothered to try Paragon in -NON sector be sector)

    Acronis works also , but only if you clone your whole disk. That's strange, a partition image should be an operation with identical results to a cloning. As Paragon does.
     
  23. jonyjoe81

    jonyjoe81 Registered Member

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    This "partition ID drive letter change" problem doesn't happen everytime on windows xp. I only encounter it a couple of times. I could run 4 or 5 tests restores and True image will work flawlessly, but when I need to do an "actual" restore because of harddrive failure, I'll get the "drive letter problems".

    Next time you run another test and your true image restored drive doesn't boot. Use you "paragon drive backup boot cd" to check and fix the drive letters, you'll be surprise how easy it is to fix the problem.

    Yes, this is a "partition ID drive letter" problem. Once you encounter them they are next to impossible to fix.
     
  24. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

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    Please start a new thread. Someone may be able to help.
     
  25. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello georgemm,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis Disk Backup Software.

    We are sorry for delayed response.

    Could you please collect some information to let us investigate the problem thoroughly?

    Please create Acronis Report as it is described in Acronis Help Post on the Quad-core computer with only the original drive connected.

    Please also create Acronis Report on the Quad-core PC computer with only the new (restored) drive connected in the way described below:

    - Download and run Acronis Report Utility;
    - Select the "Create Bootable Floppy" option;
    - Insert a blank floppy disk in the A: drive and proceed with creation of the bootable floppy;
    - Boot the computer from this diskette and wait for report creation process to finish;
    - Collect the report file from the floppy.

    Then submit a request for technical support. Attach all the collected files and information to your request along with the step-by-step description of the actions taken before the problem appears and the link to this thread. We will do our best to investigate the problem and provide you with a solution.

    Thank you.
    --
    Marat Setdikov
     
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