Backup Plus drive is a 4K sector drive. Need advice.

Discussion in 'hardware' started by bjm_, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Just confirmed that my friends Seagate Backup Plus Slim 1TB drive is a 4K sector drive and hence does not support any Windows backup tool or third party software to take a system image backup.
    What sector size drive do I need for W10. My old PS110 + Macrium Free seems to work so, I was unaware re 4K sector. Seagate Dashboard is only non-system.

    Suggestions, comments, advice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  2. Robin A.

    Robin A. Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Posts:
    2,283
    Did you try Macrium? I think any of the common imaging programs should work in this situation, no matter what kind of disk is installed in the computer.
     
  3. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    bjm_,

    I agree with Robin. That is strange advice from Seagate.
     
  4. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Well, this was part of email from Seagate.
    and this is from Amazon review.
    My friend returned the drive to Staples based upon that Seagate confirmed, as I read in Amazon review.
    So, wondering what ext drive to suggest to friend. Friend only needs (like me) basic hope never need disaster recovery. Friend has thumbdrive of HP Recovery Media and for personal files backup.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  5. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Internal is not issue. Seagate Backup Plus Slim 1TB drive is (as per) 4K sector external drive.
    IDK is Staples or Amazon link permitted.
     
  6. Robin A.

    Robin A. Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Posts:
    2,283
    I was wrong. In the case of Macrium, there are incompatibilities described here:
    Incompatible Disk Selected.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  7. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Aha, so 512 to 4096 is not compatible as per Seagate and Macrium. And who needs/uses 4K sector drive. Macrium does a great job presenting information.
    I didn't know enough to even begin to ask the right questions.
    Checked my disk and guess what. I'm 512.
    My PS110 is 7 years old. Hope someone makes a 512 ext hdd.

     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  8. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    bjm_,

    You said you will be using the disk for backups. You won't be using it for cloning. So any backup/imaging software should be OK with a 4K sector target disk. Robin's link confirms this.
     
  9. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    My issue is not a backup program. 512 internal is not compatible with 4K external.
    My friend returned 4K drive.
    I have 512 internal and external. So, I'm good for now.
    My friend bought new W10 machine and wanted to setup hope never need basic disaster recovery.
    Friend came home with 1TB 4K sector drive. I read Amazon review #4 and questioned Seagate.
    Seagate and Macrium say 512 source to 4K target = not compatible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  10. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    I have .512K and 4K internal as well as .512K and 4K external drives. All are compatible for backups and imaging.

    Can you try this from an Admin command prompt. X is the drive letter of a partition. Change X to your drive letter.
    Code:
    fsutil fsinfo sectorInfo X:
    What are your...

    LogicalBytesPerSector :
    PhysicalBytesPerSectorForAtomicity :
     
  11. Robin A.

    Robin A. Registered Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Posts:
    2,283
    As I understand the (somewhat confusing) Macrium article, the problem may arise on images restores when the enclosure changes the reported disk sector size.

    In other words, it appears that some enclosures and external disks should not be used for storing backup images, because the restores will fail.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  12. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    Robin,

    My take on that article is there is only a problem if you are cloning or restoring to the USB external HD. That's something that probably should be avoided doing to any USB external HD, regardless of sector size. There is no problem if you are using the USB external HD to store files such as images.
     
  13. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    The Macrium article mentions 16 TB HDs and WinXP. MBR disks are limited to 2^32 sectors.

    2^32 = 4294967296 sectors

    4294967296 * 512 = 2199023255552 bytes

    2199023255552 bytes = 2 TiB

    BUT if you have native 4K sectors instead of 0.512K sectors a MBR disk can still be 4294967296 sectors with...

    4294967296 * 4096 = 17592186044416 bytes

    17592186044416 bytes = 16 TiB

    So with a 4K native sector HD, you can install Win10 in MBR mode on a 16 TiB HD.
     
  14. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    @Brian K @Robin A.
    Particulars are with devices, not under my control.
    My friend returned 4K sector drive.
    Admitting, beyond one 512 internal hdd n' one 512 external hdd is beyond my recovery experience.

    As always, much appreciation and respect.
     
  15. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    Even so, your HDs are probably 4K drives as most recent drives are 4K drives with 512e.
    The above Command Prompt test will give you the answer.
     
  16. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Checked my disk. I'm 512 #7 > http://s31.postimg.org/jf75ihibf/screenshot.png
    C:\WINDOWS\system32>fsutil fsinfo sectorInfo C:
    LogicalBytesPerSector : 512
    PhysicalBytesPerSectorForAtomicity : 4096
    PhysicalBytesPerSectorForPerformance : 4096
    FileSystemEffectivePhysicalBytesPerSectorForAtomicity : 4096
    Device Alignment : Aligned (0x000)
    Partition alignment on device : Aligned (0x000)
    Performs Normal Seeks
    Trim Not Supported
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  17. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    That test only shows what the HD is emulating. You have to do the Command Prompt test to see if it is really a 4K drive. For example, here is one of my 4K drives that is emulating 512.

     
  18. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    Thanks for the edit in Post #16. Your drive is 4K.
     
  19. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Well, my internal hdd works with my external hdd.
    Seagate is scrooge here. Not me.
    Seagate says device, cannot be used for full system images.
    I'm not gonna' try to convince Seagate or my friend to the contrary.
    I did offer Seagate feedback.

    Update: Seagate response to feedback.
    I gave more serious feedback to Seagate regarding...."if you got us wrong". Funny how Seagate package & Seagate website does not offer...."may or may not work" & original Seagate response was surly not "may or may not" > original response was "does not support" #1. What part of "does not support" did I get wrong.
    See what happens, try n' help a friend. :argh:
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  20. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    @Brian K
    latest from Seagate:
     
  21. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    bjm_,

    Thanks. The advice is different every time. But they still aren't defining what they mean by 4K drives. Is it 4K with 512e or 4K native.
     
  22. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
    Okay, I'll try asking. Q: Is it 4K with 512e or 4K native.
    ______________________________________
    Edit update: @Brian K
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
  23. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    Thanks again. Is the Seagate Backup Plus Slim 1TB drive a 4K native drive?
     
  24. bjm_

    bjm_ Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Posts:
    2,283
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  25. Brian K

    Brian K Imaging Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Posts:
    8,647
    Location:
    NSW, Australia
    I'm still concerned over semantics. Can you ask them if it supports 512e?

    I think they are saying both of these drives are native 4k format. But they are different.

    4K plus 512e
    4Kn (with no 512e)
     
Loading...