ATI 8.0 (826) TAKES TOO LONG TO RESTORE

Discussion in 'Acronis True Image Product Line' started by mazaprin, Jun 28, 2005.

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  1. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    I use Windows XP Home (SP2) on a Notebook with a 30GB HD in which only 13 GB are being used, and when I had ATI 7.0 (634) I could create a full Image of about 11GB to an External USB 2.0 HD in 28 minutes (checking the image took about 13-14 minutes, it is usually half the time it took to create the image). When Restoring any of the weekly Images that I had created, ATI 7.0 (634) invariably restored in 30 minues or less (almost the same time it took to create the image) and that's including the Page File and everything on the HD.

    Now... I don't know what's happening BUT after I uninstalled ATI 7 to Install ATI 8.0 (826) and reading that this version will not include the Page File on the Image , making the creation and restoration faster than the previous versions, I decided to TEST it and here is the results:

    Creating a 11GB Image (same size as with ATI 7) took the same time (28-30
    minutes). Checking the Image took the same time (12-13 minutes) BUT....
    RESTORATION took 4 hours !!!

    ATI 8.0 is supposed to work faster than ATI 7 and it was not on any aspect and I can not find an explanation as to why it is taking 4 hours (and the estimated process time goes up and down, up and down during the entire process while with ATI 7.0 the estimated time remained STEADY and decreasing until finish).

    I have used the same procedure with both, ATI 7 and 8 which is:
    1.- I Clean my system (remove temp. files, etc...)
    2.- Run CHKDSK on both Drives (partitions C and D)
    3.- Run Registry First Aid to clean Registry of any invalid entries)
    4.- I run Disk Cleanup to compress old files and clean the disk
    5.- I empty the garbage Bin
    6.- Defrag both Drives with Diskeeper 9 Pro
    7.- REBOOT for a clean system environment.
    8.- Create the Full system Image (NO compression, single file) to an external 120GB USB 2.0 HD

    After the Image is successfully created:
    1.- I check the Image (from windows)
    2.- I Defrag the External HD with Diskeeper

    That's the procedure I have been using regardless of ATI versions and my questions are:

    1.- Defragmenting the external HD after creating an Image... does it affects the created image or will it contribute to a faster restoration (as opposed to leave the external HD fragmented)?

    2.- WHY it is taking now 4 hours for ATI 8i to restore the same size image compared to only 30 minutes with ATI 7.0? Does this has something to do with all my cleaning and defrags and running CHDSK before creating the image?

    I can not find an explanation for this looong restoration process. I then went further and I uninstalled ATI 8 and Re-installed ATI 7.0 (634) and then I used the ATI 7 Boot CD to restore the LAST Image created with ATI 7 (that I saved, just in case) and performed a restoration and, to my surprise, it also took 4 hours with ATI 7 to restore the same image that I restored 2 months ago in only 30 minutes!!! I have read on other thread about slow HD or something BUT I don't know how to check if my HD is slower than normal nor WHY (in that case).

    All I know is that since last month or so, all the Images I create (regardless of ATI version) take 30 minutes or less to create and about 14 minutes to check and 4 HOURS to RESTORE!!

    I also don't know if it would make any difference to restore from within windows (as opposed to restore from the Boot CD which is the way I always do it)

    I need help in understanding this abismal difference (my system has not changed much) and suggestions from Acronis support to try to correct this problem.
     
  2. mareke

    mareke Registered Member

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    A restore should take about the same time as it took to create the image. You probably created the image from within Windows and the restore was done using the boot CD which suggests that the external hard drive the image is on does not work at USB 2 speed when using the boot CD but does work at USB 2 speed within Windows. It may be worth trying a boot CD from a different build such as 889. In my case boot CDs from earlier builds work better than boot CDs from the last 3 builds (which don't work at all). Make sure your Bios is set so that USB 2.0 is enabled.
     
  3. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hi mareke, thanks for your input. I always create the image from within windows, that's the only way I know and used to do it (I DID NOT know that you can create an Image of your full system from your Boot CD... Is that possible?! I thought that the Boot CD was only used for restoration purposes and checking the image BUT not to create one.

    I am used to restore from the Boot CD, I have done it since I first bought ATI 7.0 and I had no problem restoring in less than 30 minutes (same time it took to create the image). The problem began about one month ago when, for some unknown reason and no matter which ATI version Image I use and either restoring from corresponding Boot CD or from within windows (I also tried it to compare restoration times) and every restore took 4 hours, even with one image of ATI 7 (634) that a month ago I restored in 30 minutes, now the same image took 4 hours too!! So... I don't think it is a USB 2.0 speed related issue because it also took 4 hours to restore within windows as well as from the boot CD BUT the Image creation and checking times REMAIN the SAME. I don't use any "Secure Zone" nor do any incrementals, I just do a weekly FULL system Image.

    I presently uninstalled ATI 8.0 (826) and Installed ATI 8.0 (889) and I just created the first image from within windows of 8.44GB being used on my HD that ATI created in a 6.74 GB size and it took 25 minutes to create and 13 minutes to check, so it falls with all the previous versions times for creating and checking. I have not yet restored that newly created image for TEST purposes but I plan to do it tomorrow and I will then post here the amount of time it took to restore it.
     
  4. beenthereb4

    beenthereb4 Registered Member

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    Did you add any new USB devices or hubs? If so, remove the new item and try again. Another (unlikely) cause is a USB cable gone bad or switched with a USB 1.0 cable or not plugged in all the way. The cable problem seems unlikely because your speed in Windows is still fast, but any added devices could be a problem.
     
  5. TheQuest

    TheQuest Registered Member

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    Hi, mazaprin

    Yes very much so.

    There little or no chance of conflict.

    I recommend it if you do not need Scheduled backups.

    Take Care,
    TheQuest :cool:
     
  6. mareke

    mareke Registered Member

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    Note that you don't have to use the boot CD corresponding to the True Image version that was used to create the image. You can try different versions of boot CD and see what they report as the restore time. You may even be able to use the boot CD from version 7.0 that did fast restores to try and restore the image made with TI version 8 to see if it reports a fast restore time. I have occasionally had TI report a ridiculously long restore time and rebooted with a different boot CD or the same boot CD to find that the restore time is back to what it should be. The 774 boot CD which always works flawlessly on my computer indicates in the sysinfo.txt file that it was made with a different version of Linux compared to builds 800 onwards which either don't work well or don't work at all on my computer so you may get better results trying different boot CDs. Also you should make sure you are using the Laptop with mains power.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2005
  7. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hey mareke, I don't know how you can make a version 7 Boot CD check or restore and Image created with version 8. That's very strange.

    I placed a version 7 Boot CD and it displayed a message saying the Image file was corrupted and to try another image. I got the same message for all the other Images from ATI 8 BUT... (read this!!) when I clicked on the images I created with version 7, ALL WERE FINE!! (this s.o.b. only recognizes his own images and portray as "corrupt" all the other versions' images hahaha). Then I put again the version 8 Boot CD and all the Images (including those made with vesion 7) were fine and no error messages.

    I remember that I was told months ago by an Acronis Support tech that you can use the latest version Boot CD to check, explore or restore any image created with previous versions BUT that you can not do it for higher versions.

    Acronis support Emailed me about my topic related to "restoration takes too long" and they recommended me to NOT DEFRAG the external HD after creating an Image and to TEST it by creating a new image and try to restore it without any defragging of the external HD. I will try it but it does not make any sense to me that Acronis would work faster at restoring a fragmented Image File than a degfragmented neatly organized and tiddy one.
    Does it make sense to you?

    I always thought that the more fragmented is your HD the less efficient it will work and more slow it will become. I don't know but Acronis does not work like your PC OS, so maybe Acronis keeps a "memory" of every file or data location in the external HD when it creates an image and it relies on it for restoration purposes later and if you Defrag the external HD you are moving all the scattered files or data to a "new location" inside the HD and organize it, etc... Then when Acronis comes to restore the image it will get confused because the data or files are not on the same location they were placed when the image was created, so Acronis now has to look for them and that's why it takes so long to restore (this is only a GUESS, I am not sure if I am right about it).

    Anyway, I will post the results after I create and restore a new image without defragging the external HD.
     
  8. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hi, I'm back. I did what support suggested and I created a new image with ATI 8.0 (889) and DID NOT Defrag the external HD and then I tried to restore from Boot CD and it took the same 4 hours. So, Defragmentation of the External HD has NO effect on the restoration process. Here is the result of some further testing:

    Creating and Image from Boot CD (889) will take 4 hours
    Creating an Image from within windows will take 25 minutes (and 13 minutes checking the image) which is the usual lenght of time for a 6.74 GB Image.

    Restoring from Boot CD will take 4 hours
    Restoring from within windows will also take 4 hours.

    It seems to me that the problem is in the restoration process itself, in the acronis version 8 software, something is not working properly and version 8 is supposed to not include the Page File on the image but I have not seen any difference in the creating Image times compared to ATI 7 (which included the Page File on its images). There is no discernible difference between ATI 8 and 7 that I could notice. Everything works the same except that now the restoration process, for an unknown reason is taking too long.

    I would like to know if Acronis have had some problems or issues regarding SP2 on Windows? Maybe Acronis would have to adjust its software to work better in an SP2 environment.
     
  9. mareke

    mareke Registered Member

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    Something does not appear to be working properly on your computer, Mazaprin, either Acronis or a hardware problem that limits the transfer rate on your external drive to USB 1.0. I tried creating an image on my external USB hard disk (the image was a little over 11GB) and restoring it using a build 774 boot CD and it took about 24 minutes to create the image and an amazing 10 minutes to restore. I used a build 774 boot CD because builds 826 and 889 boot CDs don't work at all on my computer (my computer always freezes at some stage) whereas a build 774 boot CD works flawlessly.

    It appears that something is limiting the transfer rate from your external drive to the internal one (given the time it takes it seems to be working at USB 1.0 speed). Unless Acronis comes up with a solution you are faced with the options of going back to the faster TI 7.0 or installing an internal drive to store images on. Drives are so cheap these days it would not be terribly expensive to add an extra internal drive or you could put your external USB 2.0 drive inside your computer. I much prefer using a second internal drive for storing Acronis images on than an external USB drive because making and restoring images is faster and more reliable when using an internal drive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2005
  10. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello mazaprin,

    Thank you for choosing Acronis Disk Backup Software.

    Could you please try to create Acronis Bootable CD with some older build of Acronis True Image (currently builds 800, 826, 859 and 889 are available) and check the restoration time. Please send the result along with the sysinfo.txt file to support@acronis.com. The instructions on how to create the sysinfo.txt are described at Acronis Help Post. Please inlcude the link to this thread into your letter.

    Thank you.
    --
    Ilya Toytman
     
  11. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hi mareke, I think that you are right about that something is limiting the transfer rate between my external HD and the internal HD.

    I use a LAPTOP (VAIO NVR23) so adding another internal HD is OUT of the question. My laptop came with USB 1.1 and I installed a Belkin Card that converts to USB 2.0 2 ports, powered) and I also added a Belkin 7 port (powered) USB 2.0 station to that Belking card, so my laptop is capable now of handling USB 2.0 devices like my printer, etc.

    I plug my external HD to the USB 2.0 station when I am about to use it to store documents or pictures or ATI Images (I have separate folders for every item) and when I copy and paste pictures or docs or drag and drop them into the external HD they are transferred fast at the normal USB 2.0 speed and also I have NO PROBLEMS creating an Image regardless of ATI version or Build) in less than 30 minutes (for a 10GB or less image size) and NO PROBLEMS checking the images (half the time it took to create). Everything is working fine on these two operations. The only problem is the restoration time so.... You must be right on the dot about something interferring with the transfer rate, but... What?

    My external HD have been working fine since I bought it one year ago and all my images with ATI 7.0 (634) were restored flawessly from the Boot CD in less than 30 minutes. I have been having this restoration problem since 1 or 2 months ago and I am not sure if ot is related to the new version 8 (and its different builds) or their Boot CDs.

    I tried to restore and ATI 8 image using the ATI 7 (634) Boot CD and when I chose the image to be restored inside the external drive the ATI window only displayed the title "Backup June 28" and did not display the partitions of the image, etc. and when I clicked to choose that image I inmediately got a message saying that the image "was corrupted" and to try another one. One by One, ATI 7 Boot CD regarded all these images as "corrupted" but when I placed the ATI 8.0 Boot CD, it recognized all the images (including the ATI 7 ones) and all of them were OK, no error messages nor "corrupted " images.
    So, it seems that my ATI 7 (634) Boot CD, for some reason will not recognize or read ATI 8 images.

    I then tried to restore an ATI 7 image that I restored 2 months ago in less than 30 minutes using also ATI 7 Boot CD and to my surprise it also took 4 Hours to restore. I don't understand it!! Now even with ATI 7 Boot CD that I have used many times to restore in less than 30 minutes, it is taking 4 hours to restore.

    Now I am confused because restoring from within windows or from Boot CD makes no difference on restoration time and Defragging or not Defragging the external HD also made no difference on restoration time.
     
  12. mareke

    mareke Registered Member

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    The fact that restores using the old TI 7 boot CD now also take 4 hours is strange. It appears that the USB 2.0 card you added is seen as USB 1.0. It may be worth checking if there is a later bios for your laptop's motherboard and rechecking the bios settings to see if there is a setting that might affect the operation of the card you added. Since the TI 7 boot CD restored quickly before and does not do so now suggests the problem may be outside of Acronis. It's one of those problems that are not easy to determine the cause of or find a remedy. Another possibility is adding a card with USB 2.0 & Firewire ports (maybe to replace the Belkin card if there is no more room) and getting an enclosure for the external hard drive that works with a firewire connection as well as USB 2.0 (my external hard drive case is like this and only cost $40) but that depends on whether you want to go to the trouble and expense of doing it. You could also create a secure zone with Acronis for storing images on your hard disk. It would not protect you against disk failure but would protect you against the operating system failing due to corruption.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2005
  13. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hi mareke, I checked my "Device Manager" in the "Universal Serial Bus Controllers" and one of the entries say "Standard Enhanced PCI to USB bus controller" and that means that my laptop is USB 2.0 capable due to the Belking Card. However, I will contact Sony, the manugfacturer of my laptop, about the Bio althought I don't think there is an updated bio for my motherboard or I would have been notified by Sony via the "support agent" and I don't know hoiw to check or reset the bios settings.

    About your suggestion of buying an enclosure and firewire for my external HD I will not go thru all that expense and in convenience and neither I will create a "Secure Zone" inside my HD. ATI 8.0 (both Builds 826 and 889) they are restoring OK and the only inconvenience is that it is taking now 4 hours instead of the usual 30 minutes for a less than 12 GB image but they are not failing to restore and that's what matter most to me. I am only intrigued as to why this change in the amount of restoration time and you could be right about that some new setting (maybe created by SP2) is interfering with the USB 2.0 transfer rate and I will contact Belkin to see if they give me some insight about it.
     
  14. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    Hi Mazaprin,

    Did you try doing the restore with the hard drive connected directly to the Belkin PCMCIA card and nothing else connected to any of the USB 1 or USB 2 ports? Definitely, disconnect the USB hub! Sometimes other USB devices cause conflicts that slow the process.
     
  15. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    hi jmk94903, I already tried it I unplugged the 7 ports USB 2.0 Hub from the Belkin PC card and plugged the external USB 2.0 HD directly on one of the 2 ports of the card (I left the other port empty to prevent any type of interference) and the restorations took the same amount of time (3:30-4:00 hours) regardless of ATI version or Build and regardless of restoring from within windows or from any Build Boot CD.

    I called the Belkin support and they told me that thBelkin PC Cards and Hubs have no issues with SP2 and they are working well under both SP1 and SP2.

    I called the SimpleTech support regarding the SimpleDrive 120 GB External HD and they told me that they also does not have any complaints or issues regarding SP2.

    I called Sony Support for my laptop (NVR23) and there is no BIOS upgrade available since I bought the laptop back in 2003.

    Other people in this forum are reporting long times in creating the image or checking it but my problem relates only to the restoration process.
     
  16. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    OK, did the long times correspond with the introduction of the Belkin 7port USB 2.0 hub? Since the ATI 7 CD restores an ATI 7 image in 4 hours now, but the drivers on the CD and the external hard disk are the same as before, it sounds like the hub is the problem.

    Unplug the hub from the USB 2 PC card. Plug ONLY the hard drive into the PC card. Then try the ATI 8 restore.

    Let us know the time with the hub completely out of the picture.

    John
     
  17. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hi jmk94903, The Belkin PC Card and the Belkin 7 ports Hub, BOTH were purchased a year ago and I have been making successful restorations with ATI 7.0 (634) in less than 30 minutes since I bought ATI 7.0. from either the PC card ports or from the Hub ports without problems.

    The problem seems to have arised after I installed SP2 on December 2004 (all went fine, no issues with it. I followed instructions from Fred Langa to have my system completely updated and clean, etc before installing SP2) and I have been restoring fine with ATI 7.0 (634) after SP2 BUT... since January 2005 I have been installing post-SP2 windows updates (almost 3-4 per month) and I have been creating full images weekly without problems. I keep a personal log where I write everything I do (installations, updates received, etc...).

    On May 24, 2005 I restored an Image from May 16, also created with TI 7 (634) and that was the first time that the restoration took 4 hours. From then on, even after installing ATI 8 (826 and 889 builds) all restorations processes are taking 4 hours (but all creation and checking of images remain the same normal times of less than 25 minutes).

    I have checked my logs day by day since the last NORMAL restoration of an image from January 24, 2005 performed on February 10, 2005. After that, I kept receiving and installing windows updates including the java runtime upgrade and the new windows installer 3.1 and other updates.

    On May 24, 2005 I restored an image from May 16, 2005 and that was the first time the image took 4 hours to restore with ATI 7 (634).

    I checked my logs since the last nor mal restoration to this abnormal restoration (but it restores the image well) and I could not find any reason for this to happen. My suspicions are on these windows updates that I have been receiving and installing but they were neccessary for the system so I am
    not sure they are to blame. I just don't know what is causing it (my internal HD is in good health and I use Diskeeper 9 Pro for automatic defragmenting as needed. My external HD is only one year old and it is in perfect conditions because I only plug it in when storing images or pictures, etc.)

    I would need more suggestions or solutions from Acronis support on this. They asked me to extract the system info on safe mode to a floppy but for some reason the commands they gave me to do this did not saved any text files to the floppy, they asked me to take snapshots with a digital camera and I did it but the black screen with the white text info (like MS-DOS) are almost unreadable and the camera flash was reflected on the pictures so I am still expecting another solution from Acronis and I have not received response from them in a week or so.
     
  18. Acronis Support

    Acronis Support Acronis Support Staff

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    Hello mazaprin,

    According to your description there is no software problems with your system. Acronis True Image stand-alone mode where the image is being restored is not connected with Windows, service packes or any other updates. If the restoration time increased with the same Acronis Bootable CD and the same image (and other conditions such as place where the image is stored) it is certainly not a software problem. I would recommend that you hcekc the hardware because there is nothing else that could interefere with the peroformance. Did you change anyhing in your hardware since the last time the image restoration was fast? Probably, RAM modules or hard drive or anything else?

    Thank you.
    --
    Ilya Toytman
     
  19. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    Hi Ilya Toytman... I have not added any hardware to my laptop in the past year or so, the latest additions were the Belkin USB 2.0 self powered Notebook Card (to enable my laptop for Hi-speed USB 2.0) and the Belkin 7 ports seld powered USB 2.0 Hub (conected to the Belkin Card port).

    I upgraded my system RAM memory to 512 MB also a year ago and I have been doing normal restorations either plugging my external HD to the Belkin Card ports or to the Hub ports and I have been restoring from then on without any problems.

    I downloaded the yur info tool and made a system info text report and tried to attach it here but they only allow 100kb and the report is about 136KB so I will send the report to acronis support under your name and a link to this post.
     
  20. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    Well, nothing makes sense as to why the restore time should have increased based on what you have provided. Changes to Windows have no affect on the restore since that is done in a Linux boot environment.

    I agree with Ilya that this has to be hardware related, but what is not at all clear. Since you haven't added any RAM, etc. then something has changed. Either RAM has failed (unlikely since everything works) or the hard drive has a problem or o_O?? It's very perplexing.

    Have you run a full error check of your hard drive including a surface scan for bad sectors? Beyond that, I can't think of anything, but you might keep thinking about any hardware changes this year.
     
  21. mazaprin

    mazaprin Registered Member

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    I have not added nor changed any hardware, everything is the same for the past year, the only changes has been for SP2 installation and windows security updates (some of them alter the registry or make some changes in the OS, but they are needed and they are not supposed to affect a restoration process from a Boot CD using Linux), I also have added some new software applications but they don't change the system.

    I also stated that I have run CHKDSK (checked both options to fix errors and scan bad sectors) and the result is NO errors, all is fine. Also ran the SFC (System File Checker) and it was also fine. I am as perplexed as you, can't find the reason for this behavior but if we are to try to pinpoint the reason we have to take into account the following facts:

    1.- Restoration is made from a Boot CD without any interference from windows OS.

    2.- The restoration process is done between the Boot CD and the esternal HD
    with my internal HD in the middle receiving the data.

    3.- the restoration process is done with the external HD plugged either to the Belkin USB 2.0 self powered Notebook Card or with the esternal HD plugged to the 7 ports also self powered USB 2.0 Hub connected to one the Belkin Card ports (the other port empty).

    4.- Restoring from within windows Acronis software (restoring the image from the external HD) also takes 4 hours

    5.- Acronis Tech support once asked me to create an image inside my HD (on a Secure Zone) and restore from it to compare times BUT... I am reluctant to do it because I don't believe in any "inside your HD" backups and neither on
    any "incremental backups" so the results (even if there were a difference in restoration times) has NO relevance on this problem due to the fact that I was able to restore from Boot CD and from within windows ATI software in 30 minutes or so in the past and the main problem here is to try to be able to restore normally again from Boot CD or using ATI within windows.

    6.- Another fact is that creating a Image and checking it, the times are the usual ones for any version or build of ATI, so the only problem is with teh restoration process

    Maybe it has to do with uneven transfer speed of data from the external HD to the internal HD but I have not found any changes in speed when I add items to the external HD, they are copied fast (pictures, etc..) and I also use USB 2.0 Flash Drives and they work well on either the Belkin Card ports or in the Hub ports.

    So... the problem may reside somehow in the transmission of data. I have made a Boot CD on a CD-R and another copy on a CD-RW of each ATI Build so I have TWO Boot CDs available (CD-R and CD-RW) and I have restored with both so the CDs are fine (no booting problems).

    I just don't know. I will try to check my internal HD with "CDCheck" application to look at the speed rate. i will post the result.
     
  22. Menorcaman

    Menorcaman Retired Moderator

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    Hello Mazaprin,

    Out of interest, download and install a copy of <Simpli Software's Hd Tach 3>. Run the test on your external USB 2 Hard Drive and compare the resultant graph with mine (see screenshot below). Hopefully that will eliminate (or otherwise) your external USB 2 setup.

    Regards
     

    Attached Files:

  23. beenthereb4

    beenthereb4 Registered Member

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    It would be interesting to see if creating an image using the boot CD is fast or slow. If it would happen to be fast, then I know the answer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2005
  24. jmk94903

    jmk94903 Registered Member

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    I'd be very interested to know what would account for fast writing to an external USB2 HD (creating an image) but slow reading (restoring an image). Would you mind either explaining or providing a reference?
     
  25. beenthereb4

    beenthereb4 Registered Member

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    Well, I was wondering why Menorcaman wanted to run the Windows speed test since we already knew that it was fast in Windows. He got me thinking that if the external drive was fast in writing but slow in reading, that I had seen this a few times when the read head was failing.
     
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