Anyone tried XeroBank (formerly Torrify)

Discussion in 'privacy technology' started by Genady Prishnikov, Mar 6, 2007.

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  1. Genady Prishnikov

    Genady Prishnikov Registered Member

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    Edit: July 2008 - Be aware that XeroBank has now opened an official support forum at the following link:

    https://xerobank.com/forum

    Support queries are best made there.

    ______________________________________


    I'm a little worried. It appears that Torpark is going commercial. They will soon be offering "premium services" that sound a lot like your everyday paid private surfing service. I am a bit confused from their new homepage. It might be a good thing as their privacy statement and legal info is as aggressive about protecting privacy as I have seen. But, Torpark going commercial makes me wonder. What do you think?
    http://www.torrify.com/
     
  2. Pedro

    Pedro Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    It's like paying for high speed anonymous server time. A service.
    I'm guessing everything's the same? (since you can use it for free as before)
    Don't know what to make of it beyond this. The network is the same if you use the free no?
     
  3. Genady Prishnikov

    Genady Prishnikov Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    That's my big question. For example, with the "Torrify Premium" they describe a "1500 Kbps dedicated VPN" and yet "High Speed access to TOR network". Which is it? A VPN service or TOR? How can they get any higher speed access to TOR than I can?
     
  4. Pedro

    Pedro Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    That's a good question. Maybe their own Tor serverso_O Available to others too, but where clients have privileges (logging...)
     
  5. Paranoid2000

    Paranoid2000 Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Unless they're setting up a private network of their own Tor servers, I can't see them offering any speed improvements either. However, it looks as if Torrify Premium is going to be a separate product from Tor (though offering the option of going via Tor also - presumably for use with websites blocking Torrify's servers) and, if done correctly (with truly anonymous payment systems) it could provide a useful alternative for those prepared to pay for speed.
     
  6. GreenDiamond

    GreenDiamond Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    I realize this thread is a bit old, sorry for bumping it.

    My name is GD and I work with Arrakis of Torrify. To answer some of your questions how Torrify will work is that you will connect to it like a VPN but then on its side you will be the security of tor with speed unheard of. The tor servers are not normal tor servers, they are all secure and connected to fat lines. Most are offshore. If any of you have any other questions my personal site is ~Snip~ and my blog is ~Snip~.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2007
  7. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Torpark works like this:

    Program - Service - Network Connection - Speed
    Torpark - Free - Tor - Crapshoot
    Torpark - Plus - Torrify SSH - 200Kbps ~ 700Kbps
    Torpark - Premium - Torrify VPN - 1500Kbps ~ 4000Kbps
    Torpark - Ultra - Torrify VPN - 4,000Kbps - 40,000Kbps

    The access to Tor is because our internal network has squid-mapped the Tor network, so you can access tor hidden services and computers inside the tor network directly from the browser. The Faster access to tor is because the squid-mapping uses a high speed gateway we have set up as a tor entry node for our network. Naturally we cannot guarantee the speeds of the middleman or destination nodes, but your entry will be fast as you use our network as your entry node. To clarify, this service lets you quickly hit computer inside the Tor network, and if you have the VPN service you can use our fast Tor entry node if you want to use tor on top our service, to reach the internet.

    The commercial anonymity service comes from the overwhelming outcry that Tor is too slow. So we designed the business structure and network structures to be the greatest anonymity service on the planet. Torrify is an online business formed in the sovereign state of Saint Kitts & Nevis, and is not subject to US law. We anonymize the payment from ourselves using 3rd party systems, so we do not have customer billing information to hand over, and all sensitive data is stored across multiple jurisdictions. It would require multi-jurisdictional superpowers, all working together, to link outgoing traffic back to the client. There is no anonymity service with stronger offerings than Torrify's corporate structure, privacy guarantee, and TESLA license. However, we won't tolerate people abusing our service for fraud or child pornography, and such use violates our terms of service and will void your protection.
     
  8. Genady Prishnikov

    Genady Prishnikov Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Nobody would disagree with you about the problems of fraud and child pornography. However, one thing I don't understand after visiting your site:
    "No Logs!"
    If you keep no logs, how could you possibly even know about what's going on to not "tolerate it?" This has been my problem with privacy services claiming NO LOGS, but then go on to explain what they will not allow and how you will get the boot. There is a disconnect there. Maybe you can help?
     
  9. Genady Prishnikov

    Genady Prishnikov Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    I thought it was great for the Torrify people to show up in this thread. But where are you now that the tough question has been raised?
     
  10. Paranoid2000

    Paranoid2000 Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    I'd like to add this one:
    You plan to offer high speed entry servers to the Tor network but exercise no control over the middle or destination nodes - so wouldn't it follow that most users would notice little to no speed improvement?
     
  11. Hillsboro

    Hillsboro Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Exactly... Plus, where is the anonymity with VPN? Torrify would have your IP when you access their sever and you get slowed down on the Tor network servers, as Paranoid said. And, what is to keep the middle and exit node providers from blocking Torrify's servers? I know I would if I were running a Tor node. It makes no sense to give Torrify a free ride.
     
  12. Genady Prishnikov

    Genady Prishnikov Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Lots of questions. I only wish Torrify would return to answer some of them.
     
  13. pifxxx

    pifxxx Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    They should say that to protect themselves.....if you read the site, they say if they were ordered to monitor an account, and that account did not expire they will do...I think the best practice is to allow your account to expire and self destruct every month and start a new one!!! They should offer weekly accounts if they are serious about privacy!!!
     
  14. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Sorry, we've been super busy. Now to answer your question about logging...

    The way we know what is "going on" in order to not tolerate it is if we get complaints, or if we notice odd network statistics (like someone trying to do a DoS attack or scan our internal network). We aren't babysitters and we aren't going to watch what you do. Your private business is exactly that, and we don't want to know, because then that becomes a big hassle for us. The main issue is how responsible we are to our upstream providers. If they complain legitimately, we have to do something about it. For example, we get notified of someone hacking bank accounts with our system, we will look into it and respond with prejudice if we can verify it. If the US government calls up and says "someone said something we don't like, tell us who they are" we will laugh and try to inform the account holder.
     
  15. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    While it is possible you wouldn't notice a speed improvement specifically while trying to access a hidden service, it is more likely you will get faster access. Consider that we have servers in hetzner and other fun datacenters, and a huge portion of the fastest nodes in the tor network are in the same datacenters, so instead of 30ms to 200ms delays between nodes, we have may have 1ms to 5ms delays between entry to middleman nodes, in addition to the high bandwidth low latency access to the Torrify network instead of generic access to the entry node. This isn't a coincidence, and next year you will see why... I can ask our admin over the tor gateway(s) to give me specifics about if he modifies the directory to use only fast servers and how many that may be at any given time, and the effects on anonymity.
     
  16. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    That just wouldn't work because the transaction and processing costs of doing even monthly accounts are enormous. However, if the user is willing to pay for it, we can do it. Are you willing to pay $5 per week for a service that normally costs $10 per month?
     
  17. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    We and anyone else have access to your IP when you directly connect. You aren't connecting to *us* anonymously, you use us to connect to *everyone else* anonymously via Torrify.

    Free ride... there is irony there considering the whole tor network bandwidth is donated and free to begin with. Oh well, feel free to block whatever you like, but it isn't like you are blocking illegitimate users... people accessing the tor network via torrify gateway are specifically trying to reach a server inside the tor network. if anything, we reduce latency in the network because those requests would have already existed but ended up using another server's bandwidth instead of ours.
     
  18. Paranoid2000

    Paranoid2000 Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    But latency isn't the big problem - throughput is. Unless you are providing a large number of well-connected Tor nodes, your users are still going to end up sharing (for example) a 50KB/s link saturated with Rapidshare downloads (biggest problem on Tor IMO) and YouTube videos. The only way to avoid this is to ensure that you supply entry, middleman and exit nodes, with some means of anonymously authenticating entry node users (e.g. via a key created using a one-way hash when people purchase an account - this could also include a bandwidth allocation requiring users to purchase another key when used up).
    I think the point being made was whether your service could be using donated bandwidth for commercial gain. ;)

    If the Torrify network is completely separate from Tor, only connecting to it to access hidden services, then there should be no such issue. But since you do mention in your post above connecting via Tor, perhaps you may care to elaborate on how you intend to balance things out?
     
  19. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    You are right, throughput is an issue and we can't control that through all 3 nodes, only through the first and can influence the second and possibly third node.

    Regarding owning the nodes, I can't publicly mention any more. Just hold your horses there, we've already created a working solution which is going to be implemented later. Let's just get this launch off the ground :)

    I don't think we are using any donated bandwidth for gain if they are looking for tor hidden services. Those people would normally be using 3 nodes all at the cost of the tor network, without any regard to our commercial service. We are taking load off the tor network by running one of those 3 nodes ourselves (the gateway). So there is your trade-off, which is entirely for benefit of the tor network, not us. If they want to access tor hidden services, they can already do that for free at full expense of the tor network; but by accessing it via torrify you get a big whack at getting more throughput by reducing the number of peers, and getting better chances of fast middlemen, but of course at this time you are subject to whatever the final node gives you. Just as an example, I can often get 100~200Kbps to tor network hidden services when using our Torrify service.
     
  20. Paranoid2000

    Paranoid2000 Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    While promising, hidden service access is very much in the minority - the overwhelming bulk of traffic is web/P2P related.

    The best workaround may be to have "dual use" Tor/Torrify servers (where the majority of bandwidth is reserved for Torrify) and customise the Torrify client to allow users to choose their Tor/Torrify node mix (e.g. all Torrify for maximum performance, Torrify entry/middle plus Tor exit for greater anonymity, Torrify entry + Tor middle/exit for maximum anonymity). Providing some Tor bandwidth on these servers should limit any accusations of commercial exploitation (plus helping to disguise Torrify traffic somewhat).
     
  21. Genady Prishnikov

    Genady Prishnikov Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    There's lots of questions. But almost more importantly, in this day of closed-mouth privacy providers, there seems to be a willingness to listen to the questions and make attempts attempts at answering them. For that - hat's off to Torrify. I hope it continues. Good luck with your launch.
     
  22. Hillsboro

    Hillsboro Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    The point for me is this:

    Right now I use Relakks as a VPN. From that connection I can connect to the Tor network. So I fail to understand what exactly you are offering that isn't available from any of the other VPN providers? Of course I know they have my IP as would any VPN provider. My though put with Relakks to about 100mbs from my 300mbs ISP connection. All of the Tor exit nodes block ports 119, 563, etc... everything that sucks bandwidth with major downloads. So anyone looking for anonymity to do downloads on the Tor network isn't going to find it. So the are left with the Darknet like Relakks. For webmail the Tor network itself works fine and there is more privacy and the price is certainly right. For darknet access, Relakks is Euro50/year.

    I haven't seen you state anything objective here regarding what you are offering beyond what is already available thru the darknet.

    As far as your servers and IPs being blocked by Tor node provides. That is a given. it isn't only me by any means. They won't let the Tor network be degraded so someone can make a profit from it, Too many people have put too much of their own time and effort and money into Tor to let that happen. Tor has been a volunteer effort from the start. I can assure you in no uncertain terms, your efforts will be blocked by the group as a whole if you attempt to gateway into the Tor system. Besides anyone who decides to subscribe to your service can easily verify if they are exiting from a Tor node by connecting to https://nighteffect.us/tns/. That will be the verification enough. You may want to post the link on your website and encourage your subscribers to use it to verify they are exiting from a Tor node somewhere other than the West Indies. To look for exit nodes in the western EU... so they have some measure of reasonable assurance it isn't a possible sleeper node.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  23. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    First off, Relakks is not a Darknet in any sense of the word, that is just a marketing gimmick. And they are paying for it dearly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darknet

    And if you really have 100Mbps throughput through Relakks, in addition to your staggering 300Mbps, I say all power to you and keep going! However, I think the more likely case is that you mean 100Kbps, as that is the throughput we get on average from Relakks in the US. And if that is the case, the speed difference is obvious (or not?), in addition to all the features we bring.

    Judging by your objections on the tor network, either you don't understand the way the tor network works, or I haven't effectively communicated what is going on. What we are doing is a positive that benefits the tor network and takes stress off of it, not uses part of it for commercial gain and increases load.

    Regarding relakks, here is a comparison I built a few months ago. I don't guarantee this information as 100% accurate, and i make neither promise or statements of warranty with it. This is just an off the cuff comparison that isn't for official use. You never see Coke talking about how it is better than Pepsi, but if you really want to know, here is how we stack up.

    http://www.torrify.com/images/relakks.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2007
  24. SteveTX

    SteveTX Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Those sound like good ideas. Like I said, I can't say any more at the moment, but we have a big grin on our face in regards to what you have said.
     
  25. Paranoid2000

    Paranoid2000 Registered Member

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    Re: Big Changes With Torpark (Torrify)

    Doubtless the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but thanks for taking the time to answer the questions raised here and good luck with the launch.
     
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