Are Members Being Objective Enough When Discussing Products?

Discussion in 'other anti-malware software' started by walking paradox, Jul 2, 2007.

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  1. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Actually, most of this has little to do with your post, it simply acted as the catalyst so to speak, that presented me the opportunity to bring this up. The point being made goes way beyond your post. But to reiterate, the point isn't that people with little or no techinical know-how shouldn't post about products, but rather that everyone should only do so based on the objective assessment of the factors I mentioned that should be used to evaluate products (see below).
    Again, when I say objective, I mean objective from the biases discussed in this thread. Lastly, another thing to consider is that people should only make comments that are within their understanding and level of know-how. If you don't understand technical matters, then when you comment on a product, don't base it on such matters, rather base it on stuff you are comfortable with, such as your and others' experience with the product. But when you base it on this, understand and mention that people's experience with products differ, and that one person's experience doesn't necessarily reflect how the product will be for others. Collectively though, sharing experiences with a product can be useful, assuming they are objective (not based on bias), as they provide an overall assessment of the product in terms of end-user experience. When discussing one's experience with products, they should only focus on things that carry significance, such as the usability, customer support, compatiblity with other programs, etc. Sharing experiences wherein a program missed or caught something doesn't really help anyone, as every program will catch some things and miss others, especially when concerning signature scanners. With other types of programs such as HIPS, discussing what they do or don't prevent might be of more use, but this type of discussion, as with all the rest, shouldn't be overemphasized. Altogether these discussions (including your own experience), in conjunction with reviews and tests from qualified people, provide the best available framework for evaluating products. Again, when discussing any of this, objectivity from bias is of utmost importance.
     
  2. Dogbiscuit

    Dogbiscuit Guest

    Good luck.
     
  3. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    To clarify, when I said any bias, I meant any bias pertinent to the discussion of products. Also, I never said it was going to be easy, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Not sure if you meant that sarcastically. If so, enough with the cynicism, it isn't helping. If not, thanks.
     
  4. mercurie

    mercurie A Friendly Creature

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    The solution to your above problem is to stifle freedom to express ones opinion and experiences for the benefit of anyone who wants to learn or gather opinions and information from a user base.

    I believe a mod. recently posted a "let's stop posting so many what is the best" that is as close to the line as I would want to see Wilders go on this issue.

    If a link is need perhaps someone can post it. I need to fly. ;)

    A cure for your issue would not be good. :ouch:
     
  5. Dogbiscuit

    Dogbiscuit Guest

    It's self-evident that if you can't be free of biases about anything, that would also apply to 'any bias pertinent to the discussion of products'. :rolleyes: A person can't know every bias within themselves, even just in the context of answering a particular question here. So how can you ask someone to disclose 'any' bias?

    Having said that, sure, I appreciate it, for example, when software developers let you know who they are so you can understand their comments in context. It also helps when posters give the reasons behind their opinions, so I don't have to ask. That's all nice. It makes the forum a better place.

    But, quite frankly, it's really the reader's responsibilty to sort out biases, not the poster's. You're asking others to make it easier for you. Fine, I agree. But, in the end, we have to ask ourselves how we can adjust to circumstances, not how others should adjust to us - that's life.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2007
  6. duke1959

    duke1959 Very Frequent Poster

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    I can honestly say that if I know more than someone else does about something, that if I'm confident in my knowledge about the subject, it tends to bother me much less when that someone doesn't know what I do about the subject. So why does this bother you again TypicallyOffbeat?
     
  7. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    I previously suggested a twofold solution, self-regulation on everyone's part, and some formal regulation from the Mods. Obviously, the latter part of this solution should be limited, because as has been demonstrated, expressing one's experience with and opinion of products is inherently problematic in terms trying to resolve this issue of pervasive biases. Determining the intent of the comment is difficult, and as such regulating them is likewise difficult. If such regulation went too far, then we could have a case where the cure is worse than the disease. Increasingly, as this thread has progressed and I've thought it through more, it would seem that calling for more formal regulation of comments that blur the lines might be impractical and illadvised. However, mitigating topics, such as 'which is best', that have a disposition for bringing out the bias in everyone is still viable as a partial solution. The only real solution is self-regulation. Obviously this won't be easy, or entirely effective, as there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge biases in themselves and consequently are incapable of change, but that doesn't mean we can't make progress in this area. If we all sincerely consider this, and acknowledge the problem, we're already halfway there. All that is left is for everyone to step outside of themselves, so to speak, to determine any potential biases they might have and then take concerted efforts to mitigate them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2007
  8. Mrkvonic

    Mrkvonic Linux Systems Expert

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    Hello,
    I don't see how anyone can be objective about a product they use.
    Likewise, people's opinions should be taken with discretion and caution. You wouldn't listen to just about anyone on the street - so why on security forum? Just because someone uses xyz or has a fancy signature. Plus you can sort of monitor their trends over time, see if they are consistent, accurate, knowledgeable or merely trying to run as many programs as possible as quickly as possible. Then you get a profile, and then you decide whether to regard or disregard someone's opinions.
    Mrk
     
  9. duke1959

    duke1959 Very Frequent Poster

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    Maybe we could give Homeland Security a call. After all part of their name is Security. I say this in jest of course to lighten things up, and have to say that I'm not sure trjam was a catalyst for this thread. Think about it. Some of the things said here today are worse than anyones bias opinion of a security software. Lets just go back to the friendly arguments about which security software programs are better, and at the end of the day still get along. Or the next of course. LOL. Besides as I have seen Mrkvonic post here in the past, most of these softwares are more for fun than protection anyway.
     
  10. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Again, I'm not saying that people will be able to rid themselves completely of these biases, but by recognizing them and genuinely trying to address them, they can be subdued. Of course people can't know every bias within themselves, but within the context of this thread that task is eminently doable. If one is affiliated with a commerical product, then there is a decent chance they have a commercially driven bias. If one has products that they emphatically favor, then there is a decent change of fanboyism derived bias. It shouldn't be that difficult to assess these things, the hard part is being able to step outside oneself and be willing to accept that they might be biased.

    As I said before, this isn't about me having to deal with these biases, its about these biases lowering the standards of this forum. I'm not bringing this up so that it's easier for me, but for everyone. People come here for varoius reasons, namely to seek help, to develop their own know-how, and/or to help others. Except for those that come here to help others, everyone else, especially those seeking help, rely on the input from the members here. Many of the people seeking such help are relatively limited in their know-how, and look to the members here to advise them. They aren't looking for biased views, but rather objective input, and their ability to sort that out is limited by their relatively low level of know-how. This applies even more to those that are new to this forum or visit infrequently, as they are unable to determine the patterns of members that might reveal biases.
     
  11. Bio-Hazard

    Bio-Hazard Registered Member

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    Well said!:thumb: I am not a computer expert. One of the reasons that i joined wilders to learn about security and security programs. I have also learned alot here. So i have used several programs myself, but i dont have skills to do a objective study about the program myself....so does this mean that i cant post here about my experiences with the programs i have used? Maybe somweone could find that usefull. I can only give my opinion about the programs which i have personally found effective,but everybody should always interpret the answer they get and make their own minds up. I thought forum is a place you can share your opinions right or wrong and it is up to reader to make the final opion him/herself. Do you want Wilders to become place where only the experts can join?

    Kristian
     
  12. duke1959

    duke1959 Very Frequent Poster

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  13. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Honestly people, is it that hard to read the entire thread before posting? As I said before, and subsequently quoted to clarify for someone else, and will quote again below to once again clarify, I am not saying that those with relatively little know-how shouldn't contribute or that people shouldn't share their experiences with products...

    In all honesty, did you read these before posting? Because if so, I fail to see how would post what you did. Was I not clear? If not, then please people, read the rest of the thread before posting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
  14. Bio-Hazard

    Bio-Hazard Registered Member

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    To TypicallyOffbeat; I was in hurry to read this thread, because i am at work. I am sorry, my mistake.
     
  15. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Because many of the people that come here seeking help are limited in their know-how and tend to think of the members here as advanced in terms of know-how and are thus more willing to believe what they say.

    For those seeking help, which often consists of those that are new here or visit infrequently, this isn't viable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
  16. JRCATES

    JRCATES Registered Member

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    I agree, Mrk, but that is also part of the problem. Too many people DO listen to what "the regulars" or majority at this forum say, and take it as the Gospel.....and they do so without ever having used or tried the product. I've seen people both PRAISE and BASH products....and they admit (in other posts) that they haven't even TRIED the product! They probably want to appear as knowledgeable, and so they pass hearsay along as the truth. Thankfully, not everyone is a sheep following the herd.....and so there WILL be different opinions from time to time. But for the most part, I can read a thread about various products....and depending on the product in question, often times I already know BEFORE they post - who will post, and what they will say. These people are either "fanboys", or "haters" of the product. BUT....something that only the more observant forum members would notice.....are the "bandwagon jumpers".....who either praise or bash a product because it is fashionable, and because they want to "fit in" with the in crowd. And sadly, for most people viewing that are unaware....they will never know that THAT is actually what they are viewing and reading.......
     
  17. Dogbiscuit

    Dogbiscuit Guest

    Well, kind of.

    It might help if you define what you call 'biases', as you seem to have some specific biases in mind (not just the general sense of personal, sometimes non-rational judgements).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2007
  18. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Sorry if I wasn't clear. When I say 'baises' I am referring to those that I've described throughout this thread, namely commercially driven bias and fanboyism derived bias. Also, as mentioned by others, there is the 'hater' bias, which is basically the opposite of the fanboy bias, and lastly there is the 'bandwagon jumper' bias.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
  19. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Sorry I can't help laughing. This thread is becoming a fanboy thread about fanboy's.

    On a bit more serious note, what everyone is saying has a big element of truth, but when all is said done, nothing really will change. And that isn't all that bad. We still much much better with Wilders, with human frailties as shortcomings, then not having it.
     
  20. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Care to elaborate? What exactly do you mean by a 'fanboy thread'? What I get from it, is that you're saying that those participating in it are fanboys or the point of the thread is now adopted by people in a fanboy like manner. I don't think either of those are true, so I fail to see your point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2007
  21. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    So your saying the biases I discussed are rooted in the contribution of developers here? I realize it's not that they are contributing that causes it necessarily, it is how they contribute, at least according to your notion. So the manner in which they contribute polarizes members here, and consequently fosters fanboyism, right? While I think this might be a factor, I don't think it is the only one causing these biases. But assuming it is indeed a factor, what are the possible solutions? Ask developers to not post anymore? That would be like a double-edged sword. It might stem some of the biases, but it would also stem informative dialog. Without developers here, many incorrect comments about products would go uncorrected, and many questions about products would go unanswered. So then we have to decide which of the following is the lesser of the two evils. Misleading comments from biased people or lack of information and misinformation due to the absence of developers. Not an easy choice. Realistically, we're not going to have to make that choice, because asking the developers to not post isn't going to happen. It is probably a nonstarter for Mods / Admins, so there is really no point in continuing down that road. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't other possible solutions to the factor you bring up. Perhaps if all the developers acknowledge this problem, and commit to some self-regulation, it could help the situation. Granted, one could argue that any such attempt is probably doomed from the get-go, as developers are always going to want to make their product look relatively good, whether they intend to or not. But what other options do we have to address the factor you posited?
     
  22. interstate ron

    interstate ron Registered Member

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    Wow! Is this a thesis or what? Come down to earth. If this is a security forum then I have a lot to learn.....On security that is! Thanks!
     
  23. Londonbeat

    Londonbeat Registered Member

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    TypicallyOffbeat,

    The posts here at wilders are as unique and varied as the contributors that make them, with mods/admins keeping a standard. Trying to get people to change their posting style here is as fruitless a task as trying to change peoples' personalities, and the standard with which mods/admins govern the forum is their choice and is not usually up for public debate.

    Londonbeat
     
  24. ccsito

    ccsito Registered Member

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    Is that so? :eek: Guess this is all too convoluted for me. :rolleyes:
     
  25. walking paradox

    walking paradox Registered Member

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    Not sure if you are talking about the substance of this thread, or the manner in which it was presented. The former is simply a natural outcome of the way I think about things. The latter is probably a result of my reading too much. Either way, I can assure you that this is all rooted in empirical observations in conjuction with some basic analysis.
     
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