The market has rejected Linux desktops. Get over it.

Hi All Again

It might actually be better if we had to pay for Linux. It might just focus minds.

Say what you like Linux, and I have tried 10 linux distributions, and I am all but a novice, is not user friendly. When I say how do I use a Voyager 105 ADSL modem with any Linux distro, there is a pregnant silence and I am told, er you really need to use an ethernet card, then absolutely no problem.

Of course this is absolutely true, but in the world of marketing where goods are produced to suit the needs of consumers, with Linux one has the opposite scenario. Linux is great so the pundits tell us, yes say I, but ONLY if you have set up that suits Linux.

I desperately dislike Microsoft, want to change from Linux, but can I? No!. There are eye watering so called "easy to understand" threads from Linux aficionados on how to understand Grub2. To potential Windows converts this is like a lesson in psychology. Incomprehensible.

Microsoft, cannot see Linux as a threat, more likely it is delighted at the parochial disarray that Linux development achieves. I have NEVER seen such disorganised chaos as exists within the Linux community. If Microsoft is needing a competitor, and it does, it is not going to get it from Linux. Linux will still be pottering whilst Google becomes a serious threat.

To becomes seriously usable potential Linux users will not need a degree in SUDO, then and only then will Windows users convert. Remember, the competitive element is there. Linux costs nothing, Microsoft a fortune. BUT, users still choose Microsoft. To the Linux community I say ask yourselves why?

Terry


Terry

 

Most isp's stopped giving out usb adsl modems years ago and if you contact your isp they may well give you a free upgrade. ive got three modems free from BT. the first was voyager something, then bt homehub 1 then bthomehub 2.

ubuntu is getting easier each release. the only commandline i needed to use on ubuntu 9.10 was to activate libdvdcss2 to play commercial dvd's and i was pointed to a ubuntu website giving me that one line code after i installed the ubuntu restricted extras. so its just following instructions.
the reason linux usage isnt more is a catch 22 situation. people wont use it until commercial applications work on it and devolopers wont develop for it until more people are using it. The other thing is that people think because its free there must be a catch.

package management is one of the greatest things about linux.

linux seems much more smooth. if i plug in a usb stick,play a dvd,pause music its all instant. everytask on ubuntu is faster than windows. on windows you have to wait even on decent hardware.

remember windows 7 is the best windows ever. Linux is better. with linux you dont need register cleaners,defraggers,temp file cleaners etc. you just use the system and it sorts itself out.

microsoft can spend over 1billon on one advertising compain how can opensource compete?

not many people know about linux because it cant advertise and even if they have they think its just for geeks and is hard to use.

the main problems with linux is companies not supporting linux. for example some java games wont work in the better graphics settings on linux. some flash video players wont work on linux. thats not the fault of linux.

did you manage to learn what you know in windows in the small about of time you have tryed linux? im sure the answer is no so give linux some time. just because windows doesnt use commandline doesnt mean its not needed. why are people afraid of the commandline? there is plenty of guides on how to setup the most popular distros to be able to do the tasks people want to accomplish.

i do wish that rollback of updates was easier. for example with fedora 10 an update stopped broke wireless so i wanted to rollback network manager. but the only way to do is was to download the older version and all dependences by hand and then open up terminal and run some commands to roll it back. some package managers do have easy rollback. cant remember name of it atm. sure its less likely to happern on a more stable linux distro such as centos but it could still happen and rollback would get wireless working again.

 

Let me give a recent example of what frustrates me with Linux, and I have been seeing things like this for over 2 years, which is how long I have been distro hopping and playing with it.

When the latest Ubuntu came out, I downloaded and burned it (three times) to CD, and attempted to run it. Up till now, Ubuntu has been great, almost flawless for me. No more. Apparently there has been some kernel patch from ATI or relating to ATI that has rendered Ubuntu useless to me now. It takes about 10 minutes to finally reach the desktop, and when it does, I get a kernel unstable error and that's the end of that. I had a similar experience with the latest Fedora 12, but in that case, I can't even get to a desktop. So it appears to be something patched into the kernel relating to my ATI graphics. Older distros work fine, load fine, etc etc.

This is just one in series of "issues" that I constantly find with Linux distros. There is invariably *something* that's not right. Rare is it to find an issue free distro.

So what if I had gone to Ubuntu for good and left Win? Then when Ubuntu 9.10 came out and I upgraded, I'm left in the dust, no OS for me. And how does a casual newbie to Linux take it when he can't even run a live cd due to this ATI issue or something else? What's the impression he or she takes with him/her after seeing things like this?

IMO, Linux needs to FOCUS and produce a QUALITY product that works on almost ALL hardware. It also needs to produce quality apps that make people want to use Linux just for that reason alone. Where are they?

For reasons like this, I always return to Win (Win 7 now), even if I didn't really want to.

 

You can install software with a front end GUI such as the Synaptic Package Manager. In Ubuntu, updates are handled by an Update Manager. Its point and click. I do resort to the CLI on occasion because its faster to install a bunch of stuff. Any one who hasn't seen the modern Linux desktop doesn't know Linux has two things going for it: ease of use and stability.

 

I don't install the proprietary video card drivers in Ubuntu. You risk breaking something. It will take time for open source drivers to be improved. Compared to where Linux was in 2003, its just easy to install and to manage. The only time it needs a reboot is to apply a kernel update.

 

For me using linux is a lot like pulling teeth, an uphill grind just to get things working. Recent case in point: Installed Mint Helena in VBox a couple days ago. That went fine but how easy is it to install the VBox guest additions in a VBox Linux? Not as easy with a VBox Windows install. With Windows you pop the disk in the drawer, select the image and run the Guest additions. Done. With Linux, well, the pulling teeth scenario arises. You first have to install some DKRMS, or whatever the heck it is, via the terminal command of course , and this I discovered only after digging through the guest additions directory for a read-me text file, then, after digging through the VBox user manual for further instructions, it's, yes you guessed it, yet another cryptic terminal command to finalize the installation.

There is no way in Hades the average skilled, let alone below average skilled, pc user is ever going to embrace Linux over Windows - even for free of charge - if it means continually running these terminal hyeroglyphics just to accomplish routine tasks.

 

you only need to run one command to install virtualbox additions even in debian lenny. the packages you need for the additions to work you can install using synaptec. then you simply run the file from the virtualbox.iso file reboot and done.the harder part is getting the folder sharing working.

 

Okay, I'll take your word for it, something I didn't figure out, but you see, this illustrates how Linux, for me anyway, does not have the "intuitiveness" that Windows has.

That's another issue I forgot to mention. Still haven't figured that out either. Again, no problems with a Windows VBox install.

 

I haven't heard of this. Are other people having similar issues? Have you searched bug reports? Is this happening with the proprietary drivers?

Linux is a kernel being worked on by a bunch of developers with different areas of expertise. It isn't like there is some smoke filled room where plans are hashed out for what Linux will be. Developers work on what they can and fix issues as they arise. Most developers are paid (IBM, Oracle, Red Hat, etc.) but some aren't. The person with all the power is Linus Torvalds -- he ultimately decides what features get added into the kernel and what doesn't. He has done a pretty good job so far and if something is severely needed, he will usually not hesitate to add it. Did you know that Linux already supports more hardware out of the box than Windows? Yes, that's a fact. Windows has the advantage of hardware makers putting driver CD's in the box. Linux has no such luxury. But when it comes to out of the box compatibility, Linux wins hands down. Most people will never have to install a driver.

What you are talking about (i.e. the direction of Linux) falls more on the distros themselves than on the kernel. It's up to the distros to make the "whole package." If you don't like Ubuntu, use Fedora. If you don't like it, use SuSE. If you don't like that use Mandriva. Or how about Mint or PCLOS or Debian?

I am a bit bewildered how one can possibly say that Linux lacks quality apps. Surely you jest?

 

I think you need to read the entire sentence....

Personally, I see some action coming in another direction. I look at my HTC Droid Eris smartphone and the tight integration of an entire computing ecosystem in that little device. It's frankly amazing to me. For example, both sons now forward mail from multiple email accounts to their gmail addresses, which is then pushed to their Eris'. If an organization with heft and focus (read Google) decides to establish a presence in larger devices, I could see them gain traction if they parlayed that position from an established base (say - Droid based smartphones)

Another example was the CrunchPad (aside from it still unfolding flameout - and who knows, the Pheonix may arise again from the ashes...) or similar devices that will inevitably appear. A standalone self-contained appliance. I would love to have access to something like that.

Linux works in these settings since the user never touches the OS. It is transparent, precisely the way it should be. Windows should be that way. OS-X should be that way. Linux should be that way. The user really shouldn't know and shouldn't have to know anything about the underlying OS since we don't use these devices (smartphones, eReaders, MID's, netbooks, laptops, desktops) for the OS - we use them for the application space.

At some point OS neutrality will assert itself and that's when Linux will probably assert itself. Of course, at that point, the discussion becomes moot.

Blue

 

I'd like a tabbed pdf reader, and a chat client that does video/audio calls with MSN properly. Those two are the ones I can think of right now.

 

I have only heard from a friend that others have reported similar issues with ATI graphics. I have not spent any time researching myself, mostly because I just don't have that kind of time anymore with my work schedule etc. For me, if it doesn't work quickly, then I don't use it. Win 7 has been great in this regard, efforlessly works with everything out of the box.

Still, the fact remains that I ran Ubuntu 7.04 thru 9.04 without almost zero issues, then suddenly 9.10 kills it all. The machine is only a year old, so this isn't old hardware either. I am disappointed. But..... as I said, I haven't the time to dig into it, nor the desire to be quite honest. And my feeling is that one really shouldn't have to do much digging and tweaking for things to work smoothly.

PS - Thanks Blue for the added clarification on the linux apps comment. I will add that in general, I find that there are linux replacements for most Win apps that will get the job done to an extent, however, I just don't think linux apps compare at all in overall polish and quality. For example, I use Outlook and have since the 90's. There just isn't anything of similar quality to replace it in linux.

 

I deal with that issue daily in my (non-computer) day job, and it's not necessarily polish and quality - it's "is it the same?"....

If we try to position our X in customers Y product, it needs to be a pure drop-in replacement if we're trying to replace a competitor. Worse obviously doesn't cut it, but "better" doesn't cut it either if drop-in replacement is what's needed. If we were the incumbent, our competitors would be dealing with precisely the same battle.

This is what's playing out in OS land, but it's driven by the application base. Certainly, as with my real job, there may be price thresholds at which the pain of a change will be allowed - but you really have to understand the complete cost landscape involved. It's not just the unit cost of our product. It's how production rates may be influenced, the frequency of production line exceptions, component lifetime, specification details, and so on. The same issues translate fairly well to any setting in which a computer is used and the same logic applies.

There are decidedly different analyses performed depending upon whether legacy contexts exist or not. In commercial computing, there's a huge legacy Windows-based context. In some areas it's critical, in others it's really irrelevant, but with average users all areas tend to be critical. That's a simple reality and it does impact market penetration.

Blue

 

At the moment, the home computer market seems to be filled with low-cost "Netbooks", many of which are running various operating systems other than Windows. Surely this could result in more users being weened off Windows and beginning to embrace Linux as an alternative?

 

Polish is a matter of perception, for years and even for generations, our expectations of whats an app is based on how it looks in Windows, personally I would say there are quite a few apps that look more polished and run faster and snap quicker to desktop than Windows, its a give and take.

Point is, if you are expecting Windows, want it just like Windows, don't go for Linux period, Linux will never ever be Windows and thats why some of us stick to Linux.

 

In one single elegant window I get system resource, mail, system hardware temp and hard drive temp, graphic card temp and hdd space as well as swap space in use and more right on the desktop without any clutter. Thats Linux done right for you, there are many more examples paralleling this.

 

Virtual machines are not indicative of an 'average user'
Secondly, unfamiliar configuration is always something a user needs to figure out. The only reasons it's a bit more difficult to use the terminal for some people is because they are used to the 'Windows way'.

Just compare to Mac OSX. It's different in many many ways. Yet, people use it and learn how to use it.

What do people do when they don't know what to do?
"Google, how do I open this file type?"
"Google, how can I enable virtualbox guest additions?"

 

The ~4 months ago when I wrote that my attitude towards Linux was considerably more negative than it's been recently. I decided to accept it for what it is and for how it works. It has its pitfalls but it also has its strengths, as does, of course, Windows. The way I see it, it is beneficial and advantageous to have an understanding of another system, even it's not on par with the understanding I have of Windows, but of course I've used Windows for years, while Linux for only mere months. While mastering the terminal is a slow process for me, I am realizing how much more efficient it is in "getting things done" as opposed to using and relying on the the gui all the time.

 

If you don't wish to do the terminal, there is always sudo apt-get install nautilus-gksu or install it from gui via synaptic, this lets you browse, manipulate and edit system folders and files like in Windows explorer but be aware of the dangers of doing so.

 

Well, the only linux based OS i've tried is Ubuntu.
And that didn't last long, i learned to do some "BASIC" things but after that i gave up.
Installing programs is easy only if it is the the software list, if it's not, then get prepared to read a ton of tutorials

Got frustrated after a few days.
Specially when i tried to install Avira with On-Access scanner it was a PAIN and i never got it done

 

The repository is there for a reason, its to ensure safety of all programs installed, however if you wish cutting edge, there is always PPA and deb files at getdeb.net

The Ubuntu software list is among the most comprehensive so seldom does one have to resort to sources outside.

As I said before, it isn't Windows and never will be, its a totally different OS and therefire comes with a learning curve, how much one learns depends on individual desire and resilence.

Having said that, desktop Linux like Ubuntu today is becoming very common in countries where the path to paid OS and software is not feasible, CHINA, INDIA and Africa alone would make sure that linux desktop stays alive, even in Russia, the president there has started actively pushing open source so slowly and steadily it is there to stay, I don't see it impacting anywhere close to Windows but I don't see it going away either.

 

Why should I care about the so-called market? I've been installing Linux since the old Slackware days when not many people even knew about Linux. Do you include mac into the equation as it is based on a bsd nix system? It is just a pretty shell with unix underneath.

Most of the PC machine production companies have been tied to the hip of Microsoft for some time. Microsoft fights tooth and nail against any anyone in their way. It also suits those companies that Microsoft releases new versions of its OS every few years which leads to people buying new PC(s). It is a match made in heaven for M$ and Dell but hell for anyone else who has to keep up. While everyone may not adopt Linux as the alternative, they will look elsewhere.

 

Hi Apathy

"While everyone may not adopt Linux as the alternative, they will look elsewhere."

So where else do they look?

I cannot understand why the Linux community indulges in almost a Luddite attitude towards the market that is potentially theirs. Microsoft, almost 100% dominant supplier, very expensive. Linux free, solid community, substantive development over the years. In most cases beautiful product design. Market share improvement over the years virtually Zero.

With those advantages AND to fail would be regarded as the greatest business failure of all time. And yet we dismiss it with platitudes.

Too many distros, too many separate units burying their head in the sand all in the name of freedom of expression. Too little vision. Too little co-ordination.

Its not that Microsoft is successful, its that Linux is is a multi headed beast looking in too many directions and not seeing any.

I am surprised that the London Business School has not made the Linux farago the centrepiece of a dissertation on business failure - HOW OR WHY? Because its a product that the masses eschew!!

Terry

 

@Terry

I agree with some of your points, but I think the ideals of becoming a dominant desktop platform is being fronted by mostly its users. The core of Linux is the kernel, which is 1-in 1-out process. Distro's on the other hand, choose which kernel version to use, and which applications to put on top of that.

So, I may agree that little progress has gone noticed in the public desktop world, but behind the scenes in technology and businesses, Linux has succeeded -- and will continue to succeed.

Now, in comparison to Windows and OSX; their platforms are all controlled by the parent company. Which is good when it comes to support, but is no different than what companies like Canonical, Red Hat, and Novell are doing. The only difference is that they outsource their base.


Having many distros is a double edged sword. It provides choice and freedom, but provides fear to those who can't make up their minds.
The best part about this though, is that any distro can communicate between any other. This is something Windows and OSX struggle with.
The only reason they are still dominant is because they have narrowed a tunnel from early on with software that is specifically for their platform.

At some point, as Linux continues to grow, this tunnel will be worn out. Open development will outpace Windows and OSX. Windows and OSX have only so much time to invent and patent -- with money being the only driving force.

I'm not playing favorites, but it's ignorant to think that any platform will be dominant forever. Even so, the newer generations are going into a more technology-driven world, and what is now knowledge by the professionals will be the basics in the future.

Knowledge is meant to be shared. Part of this are the creations that derive from it. Open source is an ideal that benefits all and doesn't play favorites. So far, Linux embraces this ideal most of all, and that's why I think it won't fail.

 

There's still far too many hardware vendors that are not on-board the Linux wagon, and far too many websites out there still coding horrendously with different proprietary codecs and technologies that only work with Windows or IE for Linux to have a real chance outside of people who pick their hardware themselves or businesses with generic systems that don't really use the web to its fullest extent.

I know that's my sole opinion, but its one backed up by my personal experience. Every time I have ever tried to make the leap, something has gone wrong. Either a piece of hardware wasn't supported at all, drivers were crippled or poorly made, software I need either didn't support Linux or was too buggy, and certain types of media/game websites would either refuse to work or wouldn't work properly.

I understand wanting to play online games or do other types of media related activity is my problem, not Linux's, I still pay for my internet access and I want the full experience, not one where I have to pick and choose what I can and can't see and do based on the limitations of my OS. I don't think the "market" has rejected anything, I think certain tech corporations and, excuse my frank terminology, half-ass, lazy web developers have done the rejecting.