TDS software line discontinued

Do you do open beta testing for your products? If so how do we get on THE list when a beta is ready for something?

 

Defenstration,
I know it seems logical to give away free licenses to a future program if it has some TDS4 components in it, but these programs still aren't TDS4, and we won't be offering free upgrades to a program which hasn't been released yet as we've been criticised for doing that before - you just did then, for example ...

Namor,
We have private beta testing, members are invited to become beta testers if they frequently help others here at this forum and show good general knowledge of our software.

 

Thanks Wayne.

 

Make it open source, let the world benefit from the technology you will no longer support.

 

I am in South Korea right now and unfortunately I missed out on the news and have been trying to catch up on reading this entire thread. Of course with a topic like this that's a lot of reading. Many people that are active in this forum may have read one of my many harsh criticisms of DiamondCS for their lack of communication with their customers, or should I say their unwillingness to be open with information pertaining to the release of TDS-4 in particular. I commend them on telling us their decision, but I also see that they, meaning Wayne and his company, continue to withhold information surrounding this unexpected change. For example, when should we expect this new magical software and what will it be?
Actually however, these questions are only relevant under the presumption that we as previous customers with be future customers. In reading this thread I see what I've always seen since I joined this forum. I see loyalty. It was one of the motivating factors in my decision to purchase, not one, but every DCS product. At first I was amazed how loyal many of you, the paying customers, are (not to mention highly intelligent). About 4-6 months ago I began to consider the possibility that the loyalty was more like blind faith and began to question my own faith in both DiamondCS and Wayne. The reason for this shift in thinking was that I became increasingly upset about the perpetual delay in releasing TDS-4. Now we are being told that it will never come. I am angry and feel cheated. The offer of another one of your products is generous to some, but a slap in the face to many others. For one, many of us already own them so the offer is essentially worthless. Second, what makes you think that we want one of your products after you've essentially lied to us. I know that this comment will be met with a flurry of continued loyalists' comments that will state how they've had TDS since they were born and they've seen real value. This is kind of loyalty may seem great from your perspective Wayne, but it is a little disturbing to me. You must have great charisma because it seems that people are going to continue to line up for your products. I think that your products are great and that you are a wonderful software developer. On the other hand, I like many others, question your business planning acumen, from a strategic aspect as well as financial.
It seems that a breach of contract has occurred and you are wise, not generous, to be offering refunds. You say that the decision to kill the TDS project was made to free up resources to allow you to reallocate them to other projects. I wonder how much of those resources will be used to compensate the victims, or should I say potential plantiffs.

 

Thought already, what kept you so long Dallen.
In fact i thought you were taking your time to find the words after finding back your voice after this shock, which cost me some time myself too btw.
Dallen, with all your studying, does it include usefull marketing stuff which you could discuss with Wayne in private emails exchange if you think it could help the business even better?


The software is magical, the company is a diamond, software composed into new tools, people who want their financial satisfaction can have one of the existing programs now or expect a generous offer like always in near future when the new program(s) ship.
DiamondCS, the people and the products have a certain charisma and all were helping to keep our valuable systems secured all these years and will do with the new products.
Closing the one program does not make our systems unprotected all at once as the products have always been many steps ahead of the competition (which competition?) and malware around, so even though it does feel somewhat uncomfortable we have still alternatives available for our protection till the new programs are ready for install on our systems.

I posted several times in this thread now and i do repeat: i don't mind of on top of my new program the name reads TDS Pro or any other new name, as Wayne has explained in older threads and here the technologies developed and invented for the TDS-4 environment will be included in the new products, so patience is the thing to save us. We do get what has been promissed and most probably more than that, just with another name on top.
If we look in the long wishlist thread we asked for a new layout, countless features, enhancements, skins, less update time, more and more and as much as possible will most probably be included in the new software.
To refresh memories: there were plans to cut TDS-4 in three separate products which could be used in combination or stand alone using the same databases, so they would have names different from TDS already.
At that time we did not know what it was going to look like, just a few components names Wayne posted. So now one new project is near realisation, using the technology as promissed.

Looking forward to the new gems in the jewelry box!

 

Dallen is a example of what I mean by damaged reputation. Yes, DCS has loyal customers but this incident has produced some that will now be violent critics that might be annoying pests in a variety of ways.

The reason I said Public Relations nightmare is that Public Relations is not going to get rid of bad feelings. You will win some back if you put out superior technology but some customers you might have lossed forever since I personally feel there are a couple of more developers that have equal talent level to what you have at DCS.

Your main advantage is that customers have a great deal of difficulty of seperating "wheat from chaff", so instead of going and finding equivalent products or learning what my friend Pollmaster calls "common sense" they simply flock back into the fold of your tent.

I would probably always be under your tent too but I fall in to the camp of doing a lot of research on things. Somethings become apparent to me over time. Others I learn because out of all of the posters, I have only found 4 really that have a good idea of what happens under the hood of the software. Three of them, I talk to privately and they sometimes point me in the direction of what questions to ask. The other one, I have not talked to either on the Wilders Board or in private. I just read what he talks about with interest whenever he does pop on and say something.

I am sort of neutral in this whole thing. I will not say I will never use DCS software again but I will not say I will use it either.

What I want to see is not only superior products but increased documentation of the programs. I would like to know more about the program and why I should have it....I don't want to hear simple marketing or positioning messages....like ask a question and instead of a answer getting the usual "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

There are some developers that answer my questions fairly directly. No, they don't give out the exact designs of their product or the exact methods to defeat it but they do answer questions with a minimum of marketing messages. They will admit their program have weaknesses and can theoretically be defeated by those weaknesses but they don't give the step by step method on how to do it but they simply say that they are working on it. There are two guys in particular that let their products stand on their own and it is also extremely rare if ever to see either developer engage in public ego bashing with other developers. I do see that DCS has learned their lesson about doing that.

Well, I guess I made enough comments. I will sit back with my popcorn and watch.



Starrob

 

Jooske,
Speaking of voices, it's always good to hear yours.

Quoting Jooske

This new product that has TDS-4 tecnologies, is that the same product that Wayne told Defenstration won't be offered as a free upgrade because it won't be called "TDS-4?"
As for my voice, it's fine. Thanks for your concern. I'm out of the country now, so consquently I've been away from this forum. I leave for a few weeks and all hell breaks loose.
As for tips on marketing for Wayne...he probably knows more about that then I'll ever know. I didn't get the highest grades in that subject and I have little to no practical experience in the matter. I could offer some suggestions that might help mitigate the damages from this PR nightmare as it's been accurately chacterized.

Quoting Wayne

Wayne...it not only seems logical, but ethical, if not contractual and legally enforceable.

 

I won't say anything but I knew Dallen would pup up here

how you doing Dallen? what are we gonna do now? seems like sky is falling

 

Starrob,

It's important to consider that our customer base is much larger than just TDS customers, and for example many TDS users who take their security seriously also have ProcessGuard, Port Explorer and WormGuard - more to come soon. We value all of our customers - if we didn't we wouldn't keep offering free upgrades, free support, Members Area benefits, etc! (How much work for free do you do/give away at your work? ), but it is just that - we value ALL of our customers, and we must keep all of their interests at heart when we make business decisions.

As already explained the resources required for TDS were such that it made development on TDS4 difficult, let alone any of our other programs like ProcessGuard. It essentially comes down to this - we can either remain stagnant in terms of growth and just develop one program in TDS, or we can drop TDS to open the gates for development and allow company growth, creating many various programs and attacking security from multiple angles, not just one. It's a business decision, and no director in his right mind would choose to remain stagnant when growth is an option, especially when it is so beneficial for both parties - you'll be seeing software from us soon that you wouldn't see if we kept developing TDS.

The demands for developing adequate scanners these days are becoming huge with so many different trojans/viruses/encrypters/packers/mutation engines etc, and although most scanners do an OK job they all have various flaws, TDS included (we're literally talking about every scanner), and it is common knowledge that it's easy to modify executables to become undetected by scanners, proof in itself that scanners are not adequate when used on their own, and as time goes on with more and more trojans and attack vectors being released it will become more and more difficult for anti-trojan developers in particular, especially as most are one-man operations, and I can tell you now that it's too much for one man, yet sales in the anti-trojan market will never be high enough to justify many analysts, so if we did decide to proceed with TDS it certainly wouldn't be up to a level I would consider acceptable, simply due to time constraints. Many also argue that it's becoming time to move away from scanners, although I think they'll still have a valuable place for quite some time, but their flaws certainly demand other software backing them up (example: ProcessGuard to prevent termination/modification/suspension), which is what we're now finally free to work on, and which we look forward to releasing soon.

Best regards,
Wayne

 

thanx Wayne for explaining!

Good luck,

 

Infinity,
I'm doing pretty well...Seoul is a fantastic place. To answer your question about what to do now: I guess we pull up a seat and see if Starrob will share the popcorn.

 

LMAO , let's hope for some action, I cannot agree more but sometimes things goes the way things goes...you should have known that (mba mister )

best wishes,

Inf.

 

Now you see? You did it! Why did you go in the first place without any warning?

Think after the closing TDS-4 project it would be hard to make promisses for a next future product. I'm sure there will be made agreements in line as we do know from DiamondCS over the past years.


For the marketing ideas exchange: at least it could make sure you're in line about that. It's not my field at all, so can't jump into any conclusions myself.

 

Is Gavin still working at DiamondCS?

 

public relations nightmare... Don't know about that... But I do know you advertised and sold a product to me and a lot of other people based on the offer of a free upgrade. I think we can dispense with any further hyperbole and cut to the chase.

I emailed a very detailed and interesting PDF package to Jim McGinty's office. You know who Mr. McGinty is, don’t you Wayne? Maybe we should let his people be the final judge of the propriety and legality of your actions here. If you were on the up and up no problem. If not, well there is the question of deceptive advertising for starters. If you can't prove ongoing development with intent to fulfill a free upgrade to TDS-4 for everyone who purchased TDS-3… Well, that moves it to fraud, where it really gets interesting. If we add the fact that you sold TDS-3 internationally via the internet… well you can see where this might go… I suspect you are going to find you will have a rough road ahead. I wonder how impressed they will be with your glib approach. I know you will probably ax this post. But it won't change the legal dilemma you will be facing right in your own back yard. The glib and smug approach you displayed so cleverly here won’t count for much. All that matters is the rule of law. And, that is what you are going to be held to; I can assure you of that, sir.

Do you really think you can evade this by saying; well we changed the features or the name… blah, blah, blah.

I for one resent being promised something and then being told tough luck we just changed the rules of the game, especially with such a pompous, snide attitude. I think you are going to find you can't change the law that easily. If you consulted an attorney before you did this, you really should fire him or her. If you haven’t consulted an attorney regarding where you are with this. I would suggest you do so as soon as possible.

This is going to get very expensive for you, I hope you realize that. Just as it was for all of us who you left twisting in the wind. For a lot of people, not me, but a lot of others it was no small price they paid for TDS-3 and the promise made.

 

why don't you go threaten someone else will ya what's that all about...damn...talking about the importance of software he?

 

So this means that your 'next' program as you call will be offered to TDS3 customers for free? You promised upgrade from TDS3 to TDS4 for free. You now say that your next release uses(and in your words) "A LOT OF TDS4 TECHNOLOGY will be released in our next program". It is logical to offer the free upgrade for this new program. It is in fact TDS4 with a different name.

Do the right thing DCS. You are looking more and more like you sacked TDS4 just so that you could renege on your promise, yet still release what is predominently TDS4 but with a new name.

As i said, do the right thing!!!

 

Dallen,

I honestly hope that DCS doesn't leave us in the lurch who have all their programs. I'm very disappointed by all this and hope that it all works out because how am I ever going to trust these people again who promised me for years TDS 4 and now are just telling me to buy their new products and that TDS 3 is useless to me as a scanner?

I really hope that DCS have the integrity and credibility not to leave us in the lurch. Maybe we just don't matter at all to them. We waited for years for TDS 4 and now lose it all and all we seem to be getting told is to look forward to buying their new products. After this huge let down who will trust these people's word ever again to want to buy from them or believe any promises made by this company? They seem very self-assuming about all this but it may do them far more damage than they realise.

Dave

 

ok, dave...

the disicion is like 6 days online for the public...it's way to soon to make judgements if you ask me...

way to soon...let's see how things go first before making any bold statements.

I personaly wouldn't believe all the negative comments...but I'll see if I am wrong and I will draw conclusions just like anyone else but for the moment it's just too soon.

that's my opinion guys,

 

CrownKing82,

Feel free to speak in a friendly, civilised manner if you wish, as legal threats generally don't sit well here.

A bit of history for you my friend. We've been giving away free upgrades to our software since the mid 90s. There are people here who only bought TDS1 or TDS2 of us, and have since received a free upgrade to TDS3, even though it was a complete rewrite. You don't get that from many companies, and we don't have to give away free upgrades - we could just charge for them like just about every other company does. Many others here have received upgrades from the various Port Explorer, ProcessGuard and WormGuard versions also. TDS4 is the only upgrade we've ever been able to unfulfill in our entire history of software development, and our business has been established now for over 18 years.

Perhaps you'd be happy if we just never offer free upgrades/updates anymore, as most companies do? It'll cost you more money, but at least we won't find ourselves in these rare situations if we're ever unable to release the program.

However according to your position, no developer should ever offer any free upgrades for software until the software has been released, or face legal action? Legal action because of something that was offered as a free bonus? Sorry my friend but there is no law preventing software developers from stopping development of their programs, I don't recall ever signing any contracts with you, and your legal threats won't change anything so feel free to write to Jim McGinty - or anyone for that matter. It's your time not mine.

Regards,
Wayne

 

I agree with other posters here who stated that those who bought TDS-3 at any time in the past should be entitled to a free program of their choice from DCS. Including any new program that may be released in the near future.

Especially new releases actually, because that's what you promised them! You already promised them a new program for purchasing TDS-3, so why can't you be fair and offer them one of your new programs for free? It's really only fair to do so, and anything less would be completely unfair and totally dishonest IMO.

You claim that recent users could get a refund, and that does seem fair, but that still doesn't address the issue of the promise that was made to ALL TDS-3 users.

And what about those loyal users who already bought PG or PE? Do you even care about those other loyal customers? If a TDS-3 user already has PG and PE then another program choice should be offered to them. I mean come on, they are some of your best customers (those who bought more than one DCS program). Are you just going to abondon your loyal customers?

You guys made a promise to allow a free upgrade of TDS-3 users to TDS-4, a nearly completely newprogram as you stated yourself Wayne, which many were waiting for and purchased TDS-3 for that very reason. In all fairness you really should offer TDS-3 users the choice to take ANY current DCS program of their choice for free, or allow them the choice to wait, and then selecting one of your new program releases for free. It would go a long way to show us that you are the honest and decent company that we all are hoping you still are.

 

worldcitizen,

This is exactly why TDS had to go - many people like yourself own several of our programs, and TDS is preventing us from working on any of them. Again we offer free upgrades to all of our software, but TDS has made it near impossible to do that (until now). We could keep working on TDS and let our other programs degrade, or drop TDS and resume work on our other programs, as well as other new programs which are crying out to be developed in this increasingly insecure world. We can't do both.

Remember, TDS is just ONE program, and security is a constantly evolving industry. We're evolving with it, others aren't, and sometimes changes need to be made to keep up with the times, decisions that not everybody would be prepared to make. We wouldn't have made this decision if it wouldn't benefit the majority of our customers, both now and in the long term. I'm prepared to face criticism now because I know my customers will benefit from this, not only in the coming months but for many years and hopefully decades to come, and in time it will become more clear to people why this decision needed to be made.

 

Sure I'll share the popcorn....Wow, it has been awhile since I been in Seoul. It must have changed greatly. Last time I was in Korea, it was more third world than approaching first world.

Enough interlude....back to our regularly scheduled program......

 

Lot of repetition of arguments, most of which already answered or speculated on.
Anything new?

Wait and see and in the meantime keep the system secure.
Wayne does care and offered immediate software replacement of what is humanly possible at this time.

I for one just wait and continue user support as always.

About Gavin: have not heard about him leaving, even though i think his main task is the malware samples and definitions, Gavin is very good in lots of other things too and highly appreciated by all, not in the last place DiamondCS. See how long Gavin is there and what he accomplished!
Another thankyou Gavin is in it's place and hoping to enjoy and profit from your skills long time more!