Windows 8 is Online Based System

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by DVD+R, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    I disagree with a lot of what is being said here, especially about "choice" and FOSS. While it has come along way in support, FOSS which in this case we might as well say Linux because that's what is being referred to, still has compromises to make and "learning to live with" situations. You can't reasonably say otherwise unless we're only referring to users who surf the net and play mostly web games and the small selection of fully Linux-supported games. There are plenty of situations in which being on Linux means having to deal with workarounds or lack of choice.

    We're being held hostage? I'm honest to God not seeing how. If you're a business relying on applications that require Windows, you're still on Windows 7 or, worse, XP or earlier. None of these new "problems" are going to affect you for years to come unless you have a very brave IT department and CEOs willing to be an early adopter with all the technical issues and expenses that come with it. At home, you're really not forced into anything and no one can make you change. Many of you still proudly tout you're on XP and MS can kiss your behinds..so why are you so vocal about an OS you're not even going to use? If you're against the direction MS is moving in, why are you even bothering with XP? Move to Linux and "stick it to 'em". I love my privacy and I love choice, but I also know MS can't invade my head and control my brain, nor can they drive me out to Best Buy and point to Windows 8 saying "Buy..NOW!". They are not likely to change their direction unless Windows 8 absolutely bombs. But if you think this new way of thinking and direction will only be implemented by MS, you're going to find out differently I'm sure. I see Apple and even the "top dog" Linux distros dipping their toes in the waters of cloud computing soon.

    Feel free to disagree of course, but I personally think this particular instance is one of those mountain vs molehill times and a discussion that will simply travel in a never-ending circle.
     
  2. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    Sure, things change.. but this seems to me to be on an altogether different level. I don't want to derail this thread into another direction, so I'll just leave it at that. I just don't like the direction MS is going (for desktop use anyway) so I may have to consider other alternatives if it continues... But we'll see. :)
     
  3. Serapis

    Serapis Registered Member

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    Hardly. It is very much related. You postulate that currently all is well in the world because Windows 8 does not force you to use an online account, I have pointed out that it very well can change to the future where the only option for the user/slave is to comply to a model that won't have this choice anymore or find himself unable to use their system. You went ahead and said that this is a paranoid extrapolation and that it could never happen. I just pointed out not only that it could, but that it is happenening right now and that logically its only a matter of time when they will replicate their monopoly antiques on x86.

    Those of you who say 'I will raise hell if they pull that crap on my PC' seem to ignore that not so much as a peep has been uttered about how this locked down nightmare happened on mobile devices. In fact millions have rushed out every year to buy the same, albeit slightly improved version of a certain crippled phone and now tablet version of it. It has been wholly accpeted by the general public and as a new gullible generation is being primed into seeing this as normal, there is no hope of widescale rebeliion against these hostile practices in the future. The next step will either be to apply this on the rest of the upper parts of the market or to simply push general computing devices into a price segment so high as to put it out of reach of the regular Joe.

    Well I'm glad to see that even you have limits to how much a corporation can screw with your privacy and data.
     
  4. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    ... and this mobile model has been working well. People are generally satisfied with their devices. Nobody has a monopoly, there are multiple OS and phone brands concurring for the customer preference. In this model you may end "locked down" to "ecosystem" x if you chose product x of brand x, but you always has the choice to abandon the product of that brand (and consequently, its "ecosystem") all together, and pick another one of the same or different brand that better suits your needs. As they are all interested in satisfying your needs (to get your money), you can expect better and even better offers with time.
     
  5. Serapis

    Serapis Registered Member

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    Since it seems we have reached full circle, I kindly refer you to my post above which describes some of the pitfalls of Corporate control of software, which is detrimental to device owners, irrelevant of how profitable or how wide spread its used.

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=2140026&postcount=69

    G'day.
     
  6. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    Lots of "ifs" in your linked post that can well never make their way into reality. :D
     
  7. ronjor

    ronjor Global Moderator

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    If that were to occur, they would no longer be a viable company. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  8. Mman79

    Mman79 Registered Member

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    That's how I feel as well. I'm seeing a lot of people acting like MS is suddenly the Matrix combined with the Borg, and the situation is some dire, hopeless outcome for the masses. I'm not sure how options have suddenly turned into a lack of choice, but that's their bag I guess. I get the idea, it's about privacy and having the ability to not share your world with the rest of the world. However, instead of bringing out the villagers equipped with torches and pitchforks for every single instance of perceived "screw-over", perhaps we should identify and separate real threats from nuisances that annoy us, but that we still have control over. Of course with some people, you'll have a more productive conversation with the nearest wall :D
     
  9. fax

    fax Registered Member

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    The usual paranoia around the evil MS and cloud services in general.
    With little facts and evidence and plenty of FUD.
    We should wait and see in around a year.... :thumb:
     
  10. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Actually the agreement the users make (although almost none read it..:rolleyes:) when using cloud services does provide food for such type of paranoia. For example in Microsoft Services Eula:

    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-live/microsoft-services-agreement

    And the microsoft agreement respects a lot more the user privacy than other cloud services.
    The main problem is that companies can and do change the EULA whenever they want... even when they don't need to since they are already covered
    Panagiotis
     
  11. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    When you think about it, how else can it be really? When you put something on someone else's servers, I think they all pretty much say it's now theirs, to do with as they please. After all, the servers are theirs, and they are ultimately responsible for what's on them I would imagine...
     
  12. TheWindBringeth

    TheWindBringeth Registered Member

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    I'd like to compliment those of you who are are thinking, about the issues, and with past through recent telco/phone history in mind. Not only is there significant overlap and interplay, but Microsoft is obviously driving its (desktop) ecosystem towards similar models. The herding advances :'(

    Those privacy policy statements I linked to earlier in the thread will be somewhat useful for that, particularly the second one that walks through the specific features on Windows 8 which have privacy issues. Warning: do NOT use express settings.
     
  13. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    No, microsoft at least at this is much better than, eg facebook. MS agreement does state that all the content you upload is yours and yours only and they claim no rights over it.

    Panagiotis
     
  14. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Personally I'm more concerned about the mobile/desktop integration in 8 (one of the reasons that I'll skip it).
    Processes from metro are sandboxed but processes from the desktop are not and can access the mobile part of the OS.
    And sooner or later malware will exploit this and we will read about people that will complain of how they lost their online accounts or their shared content because of virus or trojan.

    Panagiotis
     
  15. TheWindBringeth

    TheWindBringeth Registered Member

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    If you are worried about that, fine. However, I'd encourage you not to lose sight of one very important concept. Which is something I think noone_particular was thinking about earlier. It is security, overall and in all aspects, that should concern you. One absolute necessity, in that regard, is that YOU personally have fine grained control over the Windows Runtime which hosts those sandboxed apps and have fine grained control over everything those sandboxed apps can do. Even if you choose not to exercise it for some reason, you should want and in fact demand the ability to insert software of your choosing into the environment such that it can reliably police what Windows Runtime and apps are doing per your expressed preferences. I hope you feel that way.
     
  16. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    That's exactly what I was pointing out. Some just refuse to see or acknowledge it, then resort to personal attacks instead of actually discussing the subject. I was hoping to see something more intelligent than "everyone else (Google and Apple) is doing it" as if that makes it all OK, or Ok when compared to the previous version. No, freedom is not free. If we sit silent and allow big money to tell us what we can do with the things we buy and use to communicate, then we don't value that freedom. AFAIC, they can keep most of those portable computing devices. When I see one that allows me to install ANY operating system I choose as opposed to a short list that they approve of, one that I control completely, one that allows me to completely disable GPS and only runs what I want running, then I'll consider it. Freedom isn't choosing between the lesser of 2 evils, assuming that you can tell which that is. Fortunately, nothing I do requires portable computing or storing personal data on someone elses cloud. When I need access to my data from another location, I'll get it from my own private server, one on which I know exactly what is running, one where I can control who has access to the data. If that's paranoid, so be it.
     
  17. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    Alright, but I would say that if they can access your data, and your use of the data, and even give it to others if necessary, then they have a lot of control over it, and one might even say they almost own it..... I'm reading your point 5.2 quoted above in a previous post of yours.... unless I am misunderstanding.
     
  18. Tomwa

    Tomwa Registered Member

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    The bottom line is this:

    Microsoft has engrained "Features" in Windows 8 that I expressly do not agree with. Why don't I agree with them? Because they limit my control over a product I paid for with my own money. The second I purchase a product Microsoft has lost all claims to my instance of that product, as such they are to in NO WAY alter/change/affect the product without my explicit permission.

    Whether or not MS is Evil is up for debate, as far as I'm concerned they're reducing my choice and on that front they are free to find someone else to use their devices.
     
  19. elapsed

    elapsed Registered Member

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    Well it's a good thing you have the choice to disable it during the Windows 8 setup, isn't it? In other words it's asking you to agree, make your choice.
     
  20. fax

    fax Registered Member

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    If you do not agree then do not install. End of the problem. MS cannot force you to install windows 8/7/VISTA/XP etc. If all will do like you then they may rethink its design. If not, I am afraid you need to look for some other OS that fits your needs. ;)
     
  21. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    That is way too simplified. Many of the readers here could install and use linux or BSD, except that it overlooks the fact that you need a PC with an OS to even find out about them, download them, burn them, etc. The argument that you can get them shipped on CDs doesn't mention the fact that you'll need a computer to find out where to order them. The average user is limited to Windows or Macs. For most users, the choice is accept their terms or do without. That's not a choice.
     
  22. fax

    fax Registered Member

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  23. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    That is good to see, at least for those who know to look there. Even then, for the average user, that's a major leap into the unknown.
     
  24. fax

    fax Registered Member

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    Then they could simply go with MAC... easy and closed. There are choices out there and plenty of them. There is no obligation to go with windows. ;)
     
  25. TheWindBringeth

    TheWindBringeth Registered Member

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    FWIW, I saw these today that talk about ads being displayed by apps that ship with Windows:

    Microsoft's Big Hidden Windows 8 Feature: Built-In Advertising
    http://hothardware.com/News/Microsofts-Big-Hidden-Windows-8-Feature-BuiltIn-Advertising/

    Microsoft's Hidden Windows 8 Feature: Ads (links to above)
    http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/11/08/1543206/microsofts-hidden-windows-8-feature-ads

    a comment in the Slashdot article mentioned that the Windows 8 EULA contains this: "Some Windows apps include advertising. You may choose to opt out of personalized advertising by visiting choice.live.com" and a search for that EULA turned up this which appears to contain samples: http://www.eightforums.com/general-discussion/10837-windows-8-eula.html#post129442 that confirm the clause is in there.

    Given that it is personalized advertising and you sign in to choice.live.com to opt-out, it would seem those apps are sending some kind of unique ID to the ad servers and it is tied to your live.com/whatever account. I don't know what if any support is built in to allow arbitrary apps to retrieve personalized ads from Microsoft, and whether it is possible for all apps to access a common ID of some kind (supercookie if you will), but from a privacy POV all that is something that should be looked at very closely.

    BTW, whatever one major player does affects us all in the sense that it shapes the future and what competitors offer. Everyone should care a great deal about what Microsoft, Apple, Google, Canonical, etc do even if they don't/won't use the product in question. We really don't need all platforms becoming ad infested but that is where we would appear to be heading.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
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