Windows 8 is Online Based System

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by DVD+R, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    Lose billions to the possible many lawsuits of course! I for one fully expect Microsoft to only use the killswitch feature for the valid and justifiable reasons this feature was originally planned for. Moreover, most Windows' users have proved time and time again that this kind of fully automatic protection can be very beneficial. Finally, I take this new approach as a good experiment and I prefer to optimistically expect good outcomes instead of bashing the whole thing without knowing how it will work out in the real world.
     
  2. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    Another key point is that I trust the capacity of the Judiciary to solve issues.
     
  3. TheWindBringeth

    TheWindBringeth Registered Member

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    In general at least, I don't think it is a problem of some overlooking that the thing in question is optional. I think it is a problem of others focusing exclusively or at least too much on just that one aspect and failing to appreciate other aspects as well as the bigger picture. The most important questions pertain to how the thing was designed to begin with. Whether that design is appropriate, how good it is from a security/privacy/control POV, whether there is sufficient finer grained levels of control over it beyond off/on, etc. From a consumer's point of view that is.

    Using Sync as an example, one aspect all consumers should be interested in is whether the information being synced is encrypted/decrypted on the user's devices using keys not uploaded by Microsoft in order to protect the information from Microsoft servers it will be stored on and anyone who might gain access to those. It would obviously be best if people could make use of that feature without exposing security/privacy settings, app settings, browsing history/favorites, app/website/network passwords, etc to Microsoft. I don't think the information is being protected in this way, but would be pleased to see some evidence to the contrary.

    A Microsoft account is required to use the Windows Store. So from the get go, and to a yet to be seen but we should assume increasing extent in the future, not having a Microsoft Account and not tying your device to that account is going to interfere with your ability to acquire apps and applications. As far as trying to keep Microsoft from being able to identify you and put a name to all the past, present, and future data correlated with your Microsoft account, you are 0XDEADBEEF if you actually purchase something from the Windows Store using your own person information.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  4. luciddream

    luciddream Registered Member

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    I'll say this for 8... it is making 7 look like a better option with each and every snippet I read about it.

    and Linux too...
     
  5. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    Right. Just like we can sue the telecoms for spying on us for the government. You see how easy that problem was fixed.
    Closed systems controlled by Apple and Google. No surprises there. The first is a control freak. The 2nd would sell your soul for a buck. Care to bet that this will only work on apps from their store? Other than their words, which are subject to change without warning, show me something that physically limits this ability to apps from the store. Care to bet that this is related to the changes made to the system core, changes that prevent classic HIPS from being used? The OS will no longer run tools that could prevent such activities because they don't allow the access that's necessary. You don't/won't see a pattern here, a pattern that has been steadily taking away our ability to control our own systems?

    Microsofts own words:
    "In cases where your security is at risk, or where we're required to do so for legal reasons, you may not be able to run apps or access content that you previously acquired or purchased a license for," said Microsoft in the Windows Store terms."
    "If the Windows Store, an app, or any content is changed or discontinued, your data could be deleted or you may not be able to retrieve data you have stored,"

    Bet this will target P2P apps and will be able to delete video, music, etc. For "national security reasons" it will be able to target apps like Tor, 3rd party encryption, etc. Show me an example where something like this was implemented for "legit" reasons, then did not have the reasons it would be used expanded on. We've seen this pattern on everything that takes away privacy, control or rights. Same old game, different names, slightly different subject matter.
     
  6. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    We are talking about different things. You are failing to understand that the killswitch and its related legal terms are only valid for metro apps bought directly from the store. You can rest assured that this won't work for and/or target Tor, 3rd party encryption, etc: such things won't be available at the store to start with. As for "something that physically limits this ability": HIPS and Kernel Patch Protection can now be totally compatible, as "Microsoft worked with third-party companies to create new Application Programming Interfaces that help security software perform needed tasks without patching the kernel". You can check Matousec's tests and see for yourself that HIPS-like products still work on x64 Windows. BTW, KPP wasn't implemented for x86 versions of Windows.
     
  7. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    You're recombining parts of different statements to say something that I didn't.
    I'll repeat it for you.
    Show me something besides their statements that limits this killswitch to apps from their store and data obtained or produced by them. What physically prevents its being used on any application or data. Show me an application, built in mechanism, etc that can block this action when it does get abused, or hacked, save a separate hardware firewall.

    I wasn't confusing different subjects. I'm showing a repeating pattern of taking control from the user and a disregard for the users privacy and right to choose. No, their patchguard isn't on 32 bit. 32 bit systems are on the way out. 64 bit is becoming the norm. Their new APIs are a compromise. It does not give the security app and user the same degree of control over that system. As for Matousec, he's little more than purchased promotions. There is no site on the web more worthless.
     
  8. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    It has always been a case of trusting their statements and recurring to the Judiciary whenever trust is broken. If you don't trust that Microsoft won't use the killswitch beyond its scopes, or that the killswitch is really limited to apps bought from the store, why would you trust Microsoft with all the other code the OS is made of, the updates, the apps, etc. As for an application that can block such things, the first one that comes to mind is CIS by Comodo. You can limit pretty much everything with its advanced controls. As for Matousec, their Security Software Testing Suite 64 is FOSS, so you don't have to trust on their own testing procedures, you can independently verify all the test programs' code and run the tests yourself: http://www.matousec.com/projects/security-software-testing-suite-64/
     
  9. noone_particular

    noone_particular Registered Member

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    We've already seen where that leads with the telecom spying.
    I don't. That's one of several reasons that I haven't updated past XP. I won't have a PC that won't let me decide what runs on it on all levels or won't let me actually close the ports, not just block them with a firewall.

    As for Comodo, they aren't what I'd call models of integrity either. Their practices have raised questions in a lot of peoples minds.

    Regarding Matousec, I have no interest in their testing suite. I consider the entire basis of their testing to be flawed, and their business model makes me want to vomit.
     
  10. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    "where that leads", that what, where to. Stop using this flawed rhetoric. The tel case you refer to is totally different from this case. Most governments have valid reasons to access some of the tel data and most of them need judiciary approval to do so, and need to show why their act is effectively protecting the citizens. "Freedom is not free", I read somewhere and it's very true. As for your PC, that's fine enough: your paranoia is beyond everything you could gain in other aspects. As for Comodo's controversial practices, don't mix one temporary practice regarding product X with another long-standing practice regarding product Y: there is nothing raising worries on their CIS product. You generalize too much and this characteristic will make you stupidly stay almost forever alone with old tech from the last century - and BTW, I couldn't care less, but it's funny that you also seem to try to lure others into your ridiculously excessive radical way of approaching these things... As for Matousec testing suite, give one objective criticism on it and I may consider your opinion a bit more than baseless moaning against non-related commercial practices. For the matter we were discussing, Matousec testing suite is totally relevant, as its FOSS suite of tests prove that HIPS-like products can effectively work on latest versions of Windows.
     
  11. Serapis

    Serapis Registered Member

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    Wild Hunter,
    I don't understand why you are criticizing those of us that don't want to fit into the resurging era of corporate mainframes -aka "the cloud"- and the babysitting model where some third party gets to choose what we can install on our devices.
     
  12. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    Because some of you criticize those of us that do want to fit!! ;)

    "where some third party gets to choose what we can install on our devices." - This isn't the case with Windows 8 btw.
     
  13. Serapis

    Serapis Registered Member

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    Actually the way this topic started was with an average user coming to annoyed at the online features of Windows 8 and others who quickly pointed out the obvious trend of privacy erosion with each successive version of Windows. Then you appear to say no, not only is not a problem, but its a great feature too!

    Seeing your attitude about opensource I have to ask, are you a Microsoft fanboy or an employee? Full disclosure would be the honest thing to do you know.

    Yet. :shifty:
    I wouldn't hold my breath about that in the future though.
     
  14. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    I think fanboy fits the bill from what I've seen... seems pretty obvious...
     
  15. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    I gave my opinions as I think this thread is mostly about non-issues being ridiculously extrapolated by some paranoid people. As for my attitude about open source: I don't have anything against open source and I use several FOSS software. What I don't like is the attitude that some FOSS supporters actually have about proprietary closed source software. So, it's the other way around.
     
  16. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    Whatever. I don't care about being wrongly "labeled" like that. Continue doing so as it makes me laugh sometimes. :)
     
  17. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    No harm intended WH, that's just how it appears to me at times... If I'm wrong, then so be it... :)
     
  18. Serapis

    Serapis Registered Member

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    You don't have to take anyone's word for it or even guess what they will do in the future. Look at how the Windows' 8 cousin versions operate on the ARM platform. They completely lockdown/cripple the deivce disallowing any consumer choice - no alternative OS is allowed on there. Its not possible to install any app outside of the designated Metro (or whatever the heck they call it now) Store. Killswitch included for your safety and convenience too. If anything, at least Google's Android doesn't go that far. You check a box that tells the OS that you are a big boy that knows what he's doing, then go on your merry way installing stuff outside of the Play Store.
     
  19. Serapis

    Serapis Registered Member

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    The issue is still that we are being held hostage to the whims of a comapany who at a turn of dime can choose to prevent you from making these fundamental choices in the future. If this year's craze means more profits from a closed model, they will not hesitate to turn your general computing device into a backdoored mickeymouse toy. If being open means more profits, they will grudgingly allow it to be the case as in the past. Either way its someone else deciding for you how they think you should be using something you paid for and own. -- Not acceptable for me or any person with common sense.

    It doesn't have to be that way and it isn't, thankfully. If you are using a true FOSS foundation backed OS, you don't have to make comrpomises or learn to live with or 'like' anything that popped its ugly head into the new version they decided to dump out this year or the next.
     
  20. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    This is what has gotten me so irritated lately about MS. I have been an MS supporter for decades, but this stuff going on now is completely wrong IMO. And we have no choice as desktop or laptop users. I am not buying into it this time. And I'm afraid that if it continues, in the next version, then by then, I will be moving to something else (linux) probably for good.
     
  21. Baserk

    Baserk Registered Member

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    When taking into account their testing procedures and resulting scores, Matousec's test does have it's merits.
    But their testing/scoring procedure is just too weird where any program that doesn't pass (f.i.) test number 5 out of a 100, automatically scores 4%.
    As it will not be eligible for tests 6 to 100, it thus 'failed' at all these tests resulting in a 4% score...
     
  22. Fox Mulder

    Fox Mulder Registered Member

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    Certainly, any cloud service creates some reduction in privacy since your data is leaving your exclusive control. For that matter, any connection to the internet does the same. The key question is: are these services optional?

    I think users have the capability of weighing the pros and cons of putting their data out there. For example, I use cloud storage. Yes, there's an inherent risk of privacy loss in doing that, but for me, it's outweighed by the convenience of it. I like knowing that if my laptop were stolen or all my hard drives decided to simultaneously die, my data is stored elsewhere.

    When it comes to Windows 8, potentially privacy-compromising options are, well, options. You don't have to select them. Nobody is forcing you to use Microsoft's store to install programs. Nobody's forcing you to use a Microsoft account.

    In other words: you can use Windows 8 with the same exact level of privacy as Windows 7.

    If Microsoft decides to take these options away at any point in a future version of Windows, then I'd raise hell about it and not install that operating system. But the reality is, they do let you opt into these features.

    There are some criticisms that are valid and some that are not. Even though I enjoy Microsoft products, I'm not a Microsoft cheerleader. I would pillory MS online and offline if they forced people to use MS accounts without a local account option, though. Criticizing them for something they haven't even done is not fair.

    If Windows 9 rolls around and the local account feature is removed, then by all means switch to GNU/Linux. That's what I would do in that case. Although, if you're so skeptical of MS that you're knocking them for something they haven't even done yet, it might serve you well to switch to GNU/Linux now rather than later.
     
  23. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

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    I guess I got a little off topic there, I am criticizing MS for ramming Metro down everyone's throat whether it's appropriate or not, with no choice... Sorry... That is what's got me reeling against their latest.... But if they can do that, then they can certainly do almost anything else, can't they?
     
  24. Wild Hunter

    Wild Hunter Former Poster

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    Serapis,

    Excuse me, don't switch subjects like this. We were talking about Windows 8, not Windows RT.

    Windows RT isn't for me too. ;)
     
  25. Fox Mulder

    Fox Mulder Registered Member

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    They took away the ability to boot into MS-DOS in Windows ME... ramming a GUI down our throats. :p

    Just being a bit comical but the point is, new operating systems will certainly change or remove features as time goes on.
     
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