When Lightning Strikes

Discussion in 'hardware' started by ronjor, Aug 3, 2010.

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  1. wat0114

    wat0114 Guest

    Checking the 100 Amp service panel in our home reveals a stranded copper cable (guessing #8 or #10 awg) from the panel and bonded to the metal gas line feeding our hot water tank. All our services are underground, so the question is how reliable is the ground provided by the gas line underground. The nearest sub station is < mile away. That's an interesting picture provided by westom, although it shows grounding requirements for an RF transmission facility, which must be far more extensive than that of a typical home. No doubt the installation is only going to meet minimum code, so I doubt most home owners are going to get anything exceeding this.
     
  2. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Sorry, but that's just not true. I ask again, got a link? I do and this one says,
    Not normally. See Power surges are an increase in the voltage and Energy Dictionary: transient, spike, line surge where it says, "Transients or spikes, also referred to as transient spikes, are brief periods of extreme voltage..." Then says, "Line surge is the term usually applied to longer transient spikes".

    NO! Not true! That is totally backwards or should I say 180 out! 7th grade electronics teaches students of electronics one the basic Law of Physics, Ohms Law - the most important and basic law of electricity. Ohm's Law states the following:

    • Current (I) in a circuit is proportional to the Voltage (V) and inversely proportional to the resistance (R)
    • If Resistance goes up (opens) current goes down, if voltage remains the same.
    In a GFI circuit, the voltage is constant. There are no transformers or any other voltage increasing devices in a GFI (ground fault interrupt) circuit. The grid (using the US as an example) delivers 120VAC to the outlet. If a hair dryer is dropped in a sink full of water, resistance drops, and as Ohm's Laws states, current goes up. The GFI senses that (typically when it sees a change as little as a few milliamps) then it simply opens the circuit stopping all current flow. And again, with no current, and resistance still at 0Ohms, voltage remains at 0VAC. See How does a GFCI outlet work. Therefore, if the GFI opens the circuit, resistance goes up, current and voltage MUST drop to zero!

    And voltage arcs, not current!

    Lightning can strike the same place twice too. In fact, in the average year, it strikes the Empire State Building 500 times. Of course that is a tall building, but if you are in the tallest building, or have a tall tree or pole near your home, you may have several "events" in a single year. But note lightning does not always strike the tallest object either.

    We lose power here in Easter Nebraska at least twice a year due to lighting, more if counting downed trees knocking out power, or squirrels who forget to let go of one wire before grabbing another. A car might even take out a pole.

    The problem is, the power does not typically just go out. It often frequently flickers first and those flickers are really the power BANGING on all your electronics.

    According to NOAA's National Severe Storms Laboratory,
    Lightning can strike more than 25 miles from the storm! Even up to 50 miles!

    That's a definite maybe! ;) Yes, you have a false sense of security. But underground utilities DO provide some extra protection from lightning. Think about it for a second. You don't have a transformer and wires hanging up in the air with underground utilities. And you don't have to worry about falling branches, strong winds, or ugly poles. But, while the transformers are typically on the ground, they too can get hit. And they can suffer damage from an indirect hit as the lightning travel 100 feet through the ground. This can be especially so if the soil is sandy, or rich in some mineral contents. And of course, with no poles around your home, your house may be the tallest target, or the wet tree outside your window.

    BUT, you all are focusing on the wrong thing! Sure, storms are important to consider and as squid said, unplugging is the best protection. But there are many more things that can dirty your power than storms. When a squirrel takes out a transformer's breaker, besides the POW scaring the @#$% out of you, the power is rarely restored with grace. If the lineman is not quick with a strong thrust, there may be more flickers as he tries to replace the huge fuse. Then when he does get it inserted properly, there is a huge surge initially followed by a huge sag as all the air conditioners and lights in the neighborhood come on.

    But more to my point and focus, it is also the anomalies that originate from inside your home, office or apartment building as high-wattage appliances cycle on and off (and often not too gracefully) that continually bang on your sensitive electronics - and where the benefits of using a good UPS with AVR are realized too. Forget about surge and spike protectors. They don't react soon enough and at best a S&S protector will simply shut off the power to your computer. Now think about that for a second, folks. That's like yanking the power cord out of your computer!!! When has that EVER been a good idea? That's called a hard crash and is frequently the cause of corrupt hard drives and more importantly to many of us, lost data. For many of us, it is not the loss of hardware, but the loss of all our data (business, school, financial and personal) that hurts most. How many of you have a current (less than 1 week old) backup of all your data? And how many of you have ever tested your backup recovery plan to see if it really works?

    Big screen TVs - many have projection lamps that get very hot when on. These TVs also have fans that remain running for a few seconds, perhaps a minute after you turn off the TV so these expensive lamps can cool down slowly, instead of cracking, or even exploding (or imploding, actually) due to rapid and uneven contraction/cooling.
     
  3. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Are you sure that is the gas line and not the cold water feed? The gas feed should be grounded, but it should not be used to provide the ground.

    And how is it bonded?
     
  4. westom

    westom Registered Member

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    The picture is an example of any facility that does not have damage. That facility that also have radio equipment simply demonstrates more features. But those features must exist in any facility that does not have damage - even when it has no antennas.

    Code says nothing about transistor safety. National Electrical Code (and also UL) is about human safety. You must exceed code to have surge protection - transistor safety.

    Distances to earth must be on the order of feet - not miles. Does not matter where the substation is - to your home protection system.

    Let's put this into perspective. Every layer of protection is defined only by the ground. With 1000 plug-in protectors all over house, it is still only one layer of protection. And the only protector that does almost all protection is the one connected shortest to that earth ground. That service entrance ground is your 'secondary' protection.

    Also inspect your 'primary' surge protection system. A picture of what to inspect:
    http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

    So what should every post be discussing? The only thing that does protection. The NIST (US government research agency) is quite blunt about this:
    > You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective devices
    > do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can
    > do no harm.

    If the protective device - a plug-in protector - does not have that always required short connection to earth, then it does no effective protection. Protection is always about where energy dissipates.

    Short - because wire impedance is increased mostly by wire length (not thickness), sharp wire bends, inside metallic conduit, etc. Wire impedance is why the effective protector must connect feet to earth. And why tens of feet separation between that protector and appliances also increases protection. Impedance is only one of so many reasons why wall receptacle safety ground (code calls it equipment ground) is not earth ground.


    A constant naysayer did not bother to learn this stuff. Denies that Telco COs suffer at least 100 surges with each storm. Bodle and Gresh defined that number is their 1950s Bell System Technical Journal paper. They studies 5 location in NJ, MI, GA, and MD. Since then, others have reported even more surges routinely to COs. And damage must never happen.

    Also claims the Empire State Building is struck 500 times. He really needs to learn science - not recite half truths. Empire State Building is struck about 23 times annually. Due to superior earthing, no damage to electronics for many FM and TV radio stations. The WTC was struck 40 times annually without damage.

    Despite all that twisted spin, lightning is still a current source. Nature of and how destructive surges are averted is because lightning is a current source; not a voltage source.

    This same easily deceived naysayer even recited the famous myths from plug-in protector manufacturers: "anomalies that originate from inside your home". If appliances were creating surges, then everyone was trooping hourly or daily to hardware store to replace dimmer switches, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, digital clocks, and the microwave. If any appliance is generating a surge, the first thing it damages is itself. So easy to deceive those who never ask damning questions or learn the principles. Who blindly reiterate what they are told to believe. Meanwhile, if any appliance creates a surge, one 'whole house' protector is more than sufficient to eliminates that surge.

    We install a surge protector for serious surges - lightning being the typical example. Then lesser transients - that do not harm appliances - are further made irrelevant by only one 'whole house' protector.

    Wat0114 - never earth to a gas pipe. One home failed to maintain earth ground - the same ground that must also be upgraded for surge protection. A transformer neutral failed. Therefore household AC electric used the gas pipe to conduct electricity - until a meter gasket failed and the house exploded.

    First, the gas meter should have insulators that separate your internal gas pipes from exterior pipes. Second, any paint over that junction may compromise those intentional electrical insulators. Third, some gas companies want internal gas lines bonded to the household safety ground (not to earth ground). Others do not.

    The same earth ground - what is minimally sufficient - is necessary for surge protection. Performs other functions. And essential to human safety - so that even the gas meter does not explode.

    That three light receptacle tester cannot test earth ground. It can only test safety ground. Cannot report safety ground as good. Can only identify same safety ground failures. And says absolutely nothing about earth ground. Only inspection can confirm earth ground exists and is sufficient.

    Why properly earth a 'whole house' protector? A friend knows someone who knows this stuff. 33,000 volt wire fell upon local distribution. Hundreds of electric meters exploded from their pans - typically 20 and 30 feet away. So many neighbors with plug-in protectors and UPSes suffered protector and appliance damage. At least one had failed circuit breakers.

    My friend only had one 'whole house' protector properly earthed. His only damage was to the meter. Even the 'whole house' protector was not damaged. He had no damage because his protection system was designed to make direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Therefore he was protected from most every anomaly. He knew someone who learned this stuff from professional papers and from experience both installing it AND performing autopsies.

    The most critical feature of - the only component that must always exist in - any surge protection system: earth ground. Some protection systems have no protectors. But must always have that superior earthing so that a current source - lightning - does not generate high and destructive voltages. Every wire inside every incoming cable must make a short connection to single point earth ground. Earthing discussed this time for both transistor safety and human safety.
     
  5. wat0114

    wat0114 Guest

    He, he, you had me second guessing myself :D but another check reveals it is indeed the gas line. The line also feeds the furnaces (we have two). The bond is just a clamp on the line with the copper ground wire running about 5' to the service panel. Also looking again (my eyesight is poor) reveals there is an insulated stranded copper wire (8-10awg?) coming from through the joist, clamped at the same point as the cable going to the gas line, so this has me thinking that the true ground is maybe this insulated cable and the gas line is being grounded by it?? I'm not sure. It's typical 240VAC service, so two hots, a neutral and a ground to the panel.

    *EDIT* looking in my Alberta Electrical Code Simplified book, the ground must be connected to the water pipe with #6 copper in our case.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2010
  6. westom

    westom Registered Member

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    The only wire to a gas line is one that connects to the breaker box. Does not matter that the 8 AWG wire directly connects to the breaker box. Wires break. The only wire that connects to a gas pipe is the safety ground wire. And only if your gas company wants/requires it.
     
  7. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    So that would suggest the gas line, water heater and furnace are being grounded through the service panel, not the other way around - which makes sense. Actually, I am surprised it is insulated.

    And who would that be? You seem to be making stuff up again for I NEVER said anything of the sort! But I remind everyone that twice now you have said,
    So which is it? 1 every 7 years or 100 per storm? Is this that forked tongue again? I note 100 per storm is in line with the "cited reference" I gave of 100 per month. You continue to just talk and provide no corroborating evidence.

    How about practicing what you preach, bud? What are you citing, a wiki? The NYDailyNews says 100 while this UIC Labs paper says, "thousands of times a year". In any case, even if 23 is right, by my math anyway, that is a bit more than 1 in 7 years.

    I've included many sources for what I say, here are a couple more. Whole House Surge Protectors
    Black Hills Power, a energy supplier in the midwest says this on their FAQ page about whole house protectors (note the part about "internally generally surges" that westom claims (again with no links) don't exist,
    I don't believe I ever said these devices "create" surges themselves. If I did, I apologize for that is not what I meant. I did say, however, they send anomalies down the line. When a high wattage device, like a big motor, say from a washing machine or air conditioner compressor starts, it creates a sag on the line and that, in turn, is followed by a surge, then a sag and surge until the load balances. And that is "normal" behavior for which power supplies are able to handle and in a in a perfect, fantasy world if that was all there was to it, surges and spikes and sags and dips would be no problem. I don't know what kind of world westom lives in, but my world is not perfect. My house is 50 years old. My AC is 10. My town is well over 100. Things break and wear out. I have also been a formally trained electronics technician for almost 40 years and ANY device that plugs into the wall can fail and cause anomalies that can stress sensitive devices on the same circuit. You can believe that or not, it will not change what I know to be true, or make me richer or poorer one way or the other.

    Now I'm personally tired of all this feculent blather so I'm done with this topic, but I will leave you folks with this. I want you to think about your own experiences, and your own common sense. Is a whole house protector wired between your refrigerator and your computer? No. Washing machine and your expensive home theater equipment? No. Have you ever seen your lights dim for second when the air conditioner, or clothes iron cycles on or off? Or when a laser printer starts up? Or the water cooler at work cycles on? I sure have and those are "internal sources".

    Finally, no surge or spike protector, or no whole house protector can or does compensate for low voltage events - sags, dips, or brownouts. Only a good UPS with AVR has batteries it can use to boost the line levels backup to normal voltages, thus removing the heat generating strain and increased aging on power supplies and regulator circuiting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2010
  8. Boost

    Boost Registered Member

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    Good info Bill :thumb:

    When I get my big screen LCD 55-inch TV this fall,I'll also be purchasing a AVR for it as well :thumb:
     
  9. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Smart move. I mean, you spend potentially 1000s of dollars on a TV, "invest" in a good UPS with AVR. I have a 46" LCD and a decent Onkyo receiver, blu-ray and cable/DVR box running through a 1500VA APC and it will hold it all for about 15 minutes, nearly 45 if I shut down the receiver and bluray.
     
  10. Boost

    Boost Registered Member

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    How big of a UPS /AVR are you using? Tryin to get an estimate of how big of one I'll be looking at to buy :D
     
  11. westom

    westom Registered Member

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    AVR is inside all electronics. Sales brochures, to educate the naive, invent this strawman. Suddenly voltage variations that never harmed electronics are causing damage? Nonsense that says how easily so many can be manipulated using fear.

    An ideal voltage to any TV: incandescent bulbs are at 50% intensity. Most repeat sales myths are when one forgets to read the numbers. Normal voltage for all TVs includes incandescent bulbs at 50% intensity.

    Utilities are required to maintain good voltage regulation or disconnect power. How often do your lights dim to 50% intensity? What most needs AVR? Refrigerator, dishwasher, and furnace. But that would not promote sales myths.

    Anything that UPS does to protect hardware was and is inside all electronics.

    Dirtiest power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode. UPS manufacturers quietly warn to not power motorized appliances or power strip protectors from a UPS. UPS power in battery backup mode is that 'dirty'; is potentially harmful. This 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. A UPS is built as cheap as possible. So cheap that its battery only has a three year life expectancy. My car battery exposed to harshest weather and used every day lasts seven and nine years. No problem. Most ignore numbers. Most only hear sales myths that recommend a UPS for things it does not do.

    Normal voltage for all TVs means light bulbs at 50% intensity. Why does any TV need a UPS? Myths and lies are widespread.


    Bill is right. No 'whole house' protector does 100% protection. He can say most anything without numbers. So numbers from an IEEE Standard entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
    > Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which will, if well
    > designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not positive, providing only
    > 99.5-99.9% protection. ...

    That is the ‘whole house’ protector with an always required better earthing. IEEE then says how effective:
    > Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per
    > 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years.

    Who should we believe? Bill_Bright or the IEEE? Bill is correct. A 'whole house' protector will not do 100% protection. It may only do 99.5% protection. Then one should spend tens or 100 times more money for an ineffective plug-in protector or a UPS? Informed homeowners hear what professionals said for 100 years.

    No 'whole house' protector does 100% protection. So why is 99.7% insufficient - for about $1 per protected appliance? Its the best soluton available - and less expensive.


    Brownouts, sags, dips, etc do not harm electronics. Low voltage only causes damage when retail sources invent another strawman.

    A sag created by any appliance is not followed by a surge. Obviously. Otherwise 60 cycle waves, constantly going from the most negative to the most positive, would create the largest spikes. One must have virtually no electrical knowledge – educated by retail propaganda – to believe a sag causes a spike. That spike is another strawman. The spike only exists because he 'feels' it must exist. That myth also promotes sales.


    If any appliance creates voltage variations, then a homeowner fixes defective household wiring. Immediately. Every appliance must power cycle with no lights changing intensity. Tiny variations are often created by a loose wire connection. Sometimes due to a major human safety problem. Because it might (rarely) be a serious human safety threat, the informed homeowner fixes that problem. Does not cure symptoms with a UPS. But sales droids encourage him to ignore the problem; buy a UPS. To ignore a possible (and rare) human safety threat.

    UPS has only one function. To provide temporary power so that unsaved data is not lost. AVR has existed inside electronics long before that UPS AVR myth was created.

    Only UPS that does hardware protection is located at the service entrance - a building wide UPS. But if you learned that, then sales would be harmed.

    The anomaly that most threatens a TV is eliminated by one 'whole house' protector. A UPS does not even claim to do that.
     
  12. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Ummm, as noted in what you quoted from me above, 1500VA APC. ;)
     
  13. Boost

    Boost Registered Member

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    ROFL :argh:

    Yeah,I noticed that earlier,but had alot going on at the time. We had a thunderstorm move through the area,70mph winds and out by our camping area,there were some campers overturned.

    No power outages,etc though :D

     
  14. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    OMG! No it is not! Clearly, you have no clue, as in none whatsoever, what AVR is in the context of a UPS with AVR. I urge you, PLEASE, use Google, and look it up before making another totally inaccurate statement like that again. It is really making you look foolish and you are wasting everyone's time.

    Huh? Never harmed electronics? You do live in a fantasy world! I'll be darned.

    More feculent blather. Got a link?

    Oh that's right. I forgot all electronics come with 30 pounds of 12V batteries - and AVR circuits.

    Huh? Why? Got links? I have maintained whole facility UPS and battery rooms for air traffic control facilities, BTW, and the only difference is the parts are bigger, and generally, there's a backup generator set for automatic cutover too. Since you have demonstrated you do not know what a "good" UPS with AVR is or does, your are not qualified to make a statement comparing them to a whole facility UPS.

    You continue to make stuff up and have yet to provide any corroborating evidence. I provided links to a whole house protector site and to a power company's site - both say that with whole house protection you still need extra protection for sensitive devices. It does not make sense a power company would admit that if not true.

    No kidding? And they do such a perfect job of it too! At least in fantasy worlds.

    You also seem unable to grasp the concept that low voltage events can stress voltage regulation (different from AVR, BTW) circuits, thus generating even more heat, or that extreme low voltage events can result is lost data.

    This has now degraded to idiocy and I refuse to stoop down further. I'm done.
     
  15. Boost

    Boost Registered Member

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    What Bill said,I'm finished with this thread as well,especially when I read this

    :argh: :argh:
     
  16. twl845

    twl845 Registered Member

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    I'm with you Squid13. Thunder approaching is Gods early warning system. Pull the plug on your APC battery and don't forget to shut it off or it will keep your computer running until it drains.
     
  17. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Not to mention, drive you crazy beeping every 5 seconds! ;) At lease some models let you disable that.
     
  18. westom

    westom Registered Member

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    Are you really that dumb and stupid? I even made it easy for you. Easy to see how much AVR is inside all electronics. It is called a power supply. All electronics work just fine even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity - as required by international design standards. Intel says computers must start and work normally when lights dim to *40% intensity*. So Bill_Bright must deny it with mockery - without even one citation, number, or honest fact. An honest denial always includes numbers. When Bill_Bright does not know, he disparages and belittles. A technique that Limbaugh also uses to get the most naïve to believe something. Ridicule is his logic. Bill_Bright does it constantly. Especially when he is caught posting lies. And it works. It drives off those who post to share knowledge – who did not come to be vilified. After all, Bill is not the brightest bulb. So he needs Limbaugh’s derision techniques.

    Bill_Bright does not even know the simplest stuff. Normal is to work even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Why? All electronics already contain AVR.

    Anyone can read derated numbers on appliance labels. But that means learning before posting. AVR for all laptops and cameras exceed these voltages: 90 to 265 volts. Anyone without an ego problem could have read numbers before posting. But that means retail propaganda must lie. If retail propaganda lies, then Bill has a credibility problem. Only those who learn before posting know of AVR already inside electronics. Only those caught lying will then attack the messenger.

    At this point, Bill_Bright’s eyes have glazed over in emotion and contempt. Below is for others who came to learn how reality works. Part of an engineer’s design uses a variac to confirm operation even at "50% bulb intensity". As required by international design standards long before the IBM PC even existed. Tom MacIntyre in "Motheboard Problem? in Sept 2001 describes doing a low voltage test:
    > We operate everything on an isolated variac, which means that I can control the voltage
    > going into the unit I am working on from about 150 volts down to zero. This enables us to
    > verify power regulation for over and under-voltage situations. A linear supply (many TV's)
    > will start to lose its regulation from 100 volts down to maybe 90, and the set will shut off by
    > 75 volts AC or so.
    > Switching supplies (more and more TV's, and all monitors I've ever seen), on the other hand,
    > are different. ... the best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I turned the variac down to
    > 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the picture on that set.

    Not die as in damage. Die as in stop working. Normal is for all electronics to operate when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Normal is called power off when voltage finally gets too low. And then he learned how much lower that voltage can be. AVR in that 120 volt TV meant operation even at 37 volts – without damage. Label said it works down to 90 VAC.

    What happens when electronics power off? Voltage drops slowly. A power off is a long period of low voltage. Eventually voltage is so low that the appliance powers off. Normal power off for all electronics is always preceded by low voltage – always and without damage. Low voltage is destructive only when hearsay replaces reality. All electronics operate normally even when bulbs dim to 50% intensity – because AVR is already inside all electronics.

    UPS manufacturers invented a strawman that the naïve swallowed – hook, line, and sinker. They hype AVR as if it solves a real problem. AVR is already inside all electronics. That 120 volt TV worked even when voltage dropped to 40 volts. Electronics operate normally even when incandescent lamps dim to 50% intensity.
     
  19. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    I gave many - you? None.

    'Nuff said.

    Admin, if the OP does not object, please close this thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  20. Sully

    Sully Registered Member

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    What about spikes then? If a product can run down to a lower voltage than the nominal 90-120, how much voltage can it gain before it shuts down? Or does it shut down in the same manner, perhaps trip a fuse/breaker. Short of creating a super duper ground for my house (which I haven't explored) then what of the power surges? What product or method is best to use for us laymen out here?

    I must admit, I don't know who to believe in this debate. Both sides have elements I have heard of with my limited understanding. If this thread can provide a clear-cut and definitive answer, it be a really good thread. As it stands, lots of good infos, but the rest of us without implicit knowledge of the subject matter can only read one side, think about it, try to understand it, then read the other side and do the same. I understand probably about 30% of what you guys are speaking of, but not enough to know which opinion is the real deal. I suspect there are elements of truth in both sides, but haven't the knowledge to dredge out my own opinion.

    Sul.
     
  21. westom

    westom Registered Member

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    First, I am constantly providing numbers. No numbers are why so many knew Saddam's WMDs were myth. Go back. Read which statements are backed by technical numbers and actual citations. Which ones reference manufacturer specs. That immediately says who to believe.

    Second, what does a power supply do? First the 120 volt AC is filtered. Then converted to over 300 volts DC. See that much higher number? Then filtered again. Then converted to a high voltage radio frequency. This process then converts that high voltage, as necessary to create the well regulated 5 and 12 volts DC for electronics. Easy to take most any AC voltage through a regulator and to create any constant low DC voltage.

    Why does it do all those conversions? So that most any AC voltage always creates the same constant DC. And so that many other anomalies are made completely irrelevant. Actually amazing how much is inside every power supply using so few parts. The result of designing and then redesigning power supplies again and again over 100 years.

    Why did Tom McIntyre's TV work at even 40 volts? Because all power supplies first create a 300+ volts. Which provides more than enough margin to maintain those 5 and 12 volts.

    All appliances contain AVR. See voltage variations listed on the label. And then we exceed those ratings. Tom McIntyre's 120 volt TV, rated to work at even 90 volts, worked at 37 volts - and unusually low limit. But only one person here designed things. Only one person here knows, used, and even owns a variac. Why? Because only one person is posting from generations of design experience. And backing up statements with numbers. And yes, I even fixed TVs by replacing vacuum tubes. Was even shocked by the B+ voltage - 250 volts. How long has it been since electronics used tubes and 250 volts? Only one here has that knowledge and experience.

    Again the point. Nothing here is complex. You are required by life to learn how to see what is honest fact. That means honest replies also say why - with numbers. One number was made so obvious and simple. All electronics are required to work even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Intel ATX specs require computers to work normally at 40% bulb intensity. You do not even need a multimeter to see how often voltage drops that low. So why does anyone a UPS with AVR?

    What does AVR do? Get the naive to believe it is necessary. It was not necessary 25 years ago. Why is it suddenly necessary today when all electronics are even more robust? But again, the only honest answers also provide the reasons why - with numbers. Never forget that. You should have learned that lesson from Saddam's WMDs - that existed despite numbers that said otherwise.

    Second reasons to suspect a myth. He attacks the messenger rather than challenge with facts and numbers. He could not even get the 'grounded gas pipe' right.
     
  22. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright Registered Member

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    Jun 29, 2007
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    4,041
    Location:
    Nebraska, USA
    Where are these? I have asked for them repeatedly.

    Wrong! I did get it right. I said the pipe is grounded through the panel, not the other way around as suggested first.

    It is you westom who has refused repeatedly to corroborate your own statements. It was you who tried to impress everyone with "first semester" learnings (without references) about the relationship between current, voltage and resistance then got the fundamentals of 7th grade Ohm's Law wrong - which I SHOWED with links.

    It was you extolling the virtues of whole-house suppressors (without references) but again got it wrong as I SHOWED with links to both a surge protection site and to a power company site.

    It was you denying the existence of "internally" originating link (without references even though I SHOWED with links they are a threat.

    It was you who claimed "1 event in 7 years" (twice) without references then suddenly accused me of denying telco COs got 100 per storm (this after I SHOWED, with links, 100 events per month)

    It was you claiming all electronics have AVRs but have yet to show any corroborating evidence. Your arrogance has you so convinced the whole world is wrong and your are right that you won't even bother to verify your own facts, this even after I pleaded with you to PLEASE use Google to verify for yourself. IF YOU HAD, you would learn there is a BIG difference between a passive voltage regulator circuit, as found in most (NOT ALL, but most) electronics, and an active automatic voltage regulation circuit as found in a good UPS.

    Now you are telling readers that "all power supplies first create 300+ volts! That is NOT TRUE - a pure fabrication!

    300VDC?? That is NOT TRUE - a pure fabrication!

    ADMIN - PLEASE SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN SO WESTOM TELLS NO MORE TOTAL FALSEHOODS! High voltage RF in a DC power supply? ? ? ? ? ? ?!!!!! COME ON! Enough is enough!

    This is all total fabrication! If there is any RF in a DC power supply, the supply is faulty! That is called EMI or RFI - radio frequency interference and there are strict FCC and EU Radio Spectrum regulations AGAINST it - as any student of electronics would surely know.
     
  23. ronjor

    ronjor Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Posts:
    163,072
    Location:
    Texas
    Found a well written pdf file here on lightning safety for your house. It goes into more detail than most would care to know I expect, but may be handy for some.

    Since we are going in circles in this thread, it is done.
     
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