Vista UAC discussion

Discussion in 'other software & services' started by doktornotor, Nov 30, 2008.

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  1. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    LowWaterMark note: This discussion of Vista UAC was split off from a NOD32 thread.

    When you create a security feature that's so annnoying that it's unusable then all the effort goes down the drain, no matter how good the intent might have been. This is the case w/ UAC in Vista, this has been the case with IE "secure mode" on server versions of Windows. Annoying to death and/or unusable.

    Regardless, Norton User Account Control tool would be a good start for MS when giving second thoughts to a usable UAC implementation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2008
  2. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    Hello, as for the the uac prompts microsoft dont reccomend you use any tool like the norton one since it hacks the operating system to implement some of the functions. such as allows allow this program.
    i dont have any problems with leaving uac on.
    i hope programmers follow the advice given at PDC2008
    Best Practices for Developing for Windows Standard User

    don't always blame Microsoft. sometimes the problem is the programmers that write programs for windows that create unnecessary UAC prompts.

    everyone should be running limited user accounts. but not all users can because the applications they use dont allow that. programmers assume= user has administrator rights.

    i have come across one of the examples that came up in PDC2008 Best Practices for Developing for Windows Standard User
    if you install a program in a limited user account it will come up with a uac prompt and then ask for administrator password.
    when you install the program it will install it for the administrator and not the user that requested it.
    my situatuon was with opera. couldnt do an upgrade install of opera unless i changed my limited user account to administrator done the install and then changed account back.

    maybe i went a bit far with this post but it does proof the point the uac prompts are not always microsoft's fault. and programs not working in limited user accounts isnt microsoft's fault.
     
  3. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    I sure will blame MS for stupidity like when I need to change something in Control Panel say 20 times in a row, it's UAC feature will prompt me 20 times without giving me any option to check some "remember this" or "don't bother me again for X minutes" checkbox. That's definitely a horrible design. On a fresh Vista install, this UAC thing drives me totally nuts when it prompts for any stupid system setting change, driver install etc. etc. etc. for hours and hours. :mad:
     
  4. Dark Shadow

    Dark Shadow Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    I agree and although good intensions of the UAC by MS to improve security,it seems not much thought went into the annoyance it may cause and hence the consumers turning off uac.Great little tool by Norton and works well.IMO this is something MS should have had implemented from the start rather then a third party software.
     
  5. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2008
  6. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    Please stop telling me how many times I need to change something in control panels. On a freshly installed box, 20 times is not even enough to get all the settings optimized to your likings.

    How's exactly UAC helpful here? Anyone with Administrator privileges will be able to change them after approving the UAC nag screen.

    Once again, how's exactly UAC helpful here? I've already decided I want to run that particular installer, how will UAC prevent the rootkit install if I choose to do so?

    There needs to be an "install mode" or whatever similar there, to prevent issues exactly such as those I've described - installing a new box from scratch etc.

    No, actually I don't get any prompts under Linux. I open a root shell and will never be prompted again for any approval/credentials from there on when installing anything. Or I'll use sudo and I again won't get prompted again for a root password for a selected and configurable period of time. All those are features that are badly missing in Vista/2008 implementation of UAC.
     
  7. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    Oh, and one more thing - unlike with UAC and Vista/2008, I won't get system screwed when switching from using sudo to using a root account for something (and vice versa) under Linux. Now imagine doing the same w/ UAC, e.g. install Windows, decide to temporarily disable UAC until the box is fully set up, all drivers and applications installed and then turn UAC on again. You'll get all sorts of weird registry/directory permission issues at the very moment you do this. You'll get applications that will be unable to save their settings any more, that won't be able to update, that won't be able to properly uninstall... :thumbd:
     
  8. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?


    Uac is useful when installing something.
    the installer may be installing something hidden.
    such as when you install itunes 8 it also installs mobile me even thou you didnt ask it to. you can then click on the cancel button on the uac prompt for mobileme.

    if you install stuff like most people would aka using a package manager with a GUI you sometimes get multiple prompts. one the installer, and then a few more for accepting the package signiture.

    the other difference is that atm there isnt really any malware on linux so you dont really need to worry what you install. on windows you need to be more careful. there are alot of installers that install more than you asked it to. best example is the apple itunes one above.

    btw i do admit that uac is a crap clone of sudo.
    but you are taking it to far.

    i wish apple would add more products. such as a desktop tower at like £300-£500 and then another at £500-£1000
    OSX is likely to be the best chance at a unix based OS being used more than windows.
    ubuntu being second.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2008
  9. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    Meh, I guess I'm installing OSs way to often, so I get affected by these flaws and bad design a lot. Lets move to some productive suggestions (which you may like or not, shrug) beyond the Norton UAC tool:

    - Start++ (and howto use it as sudo in Vista)

    - sudo for Windows

    - SuRun (English version via Google translation)

    - and finally suDown for those lots of Windows XP fans out there that prefer to avoid Vista (myself included :D )

    Have phun.
     
  10. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    Hello,
    i do wish that UAC did function like surun.
    i did download surun but havent had a chance to install it yet.
     
  11. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    +1... definitely would be an improvement.

    Very nice tool worth playing with when you have time to do so... :cool:
     
  12. ASpace

    ASpace Guest

    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    Note - after . But NOT before , and only if it has been approved .

    I sure prefer to know what appl. will require Administrator rights and will definitly think twice about it before installing it.

    It won't prevent a malware from running if you have already gained "the installer" full admin rights . But it will warn you that this file requires higher rights and might potentially change important settings of your computer .


    Next time it might not be you that is changing this setting . And how will you know that is has been changed ? (that is not a question)


    If it prompts you for hours and hours , then you might need to check your Vista , if it isn't Vista anti-doktornotor edition . A simple example ... a file that looks harmless and "cute" might be a trojan that tries to perform an irreverable system change on your computer. Without UAC you will have no chance of knowing this will happen / prevent it from happening (unless there is another 3rd party application) .


    I'd suggest you read these:
    http://blogs.msdn.com/uac/archive/2006/08/23/715265.aspx
    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc772207.aspx
    http://blogs.msdn.com/uac/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2008
  13. lodore

    lodore Registered Member

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    mainly i just want to be able to use limited user account all the time and when i install an application it installs on the right account and not on the administrator account.

    that fact microsoft have provided a solution to the issue i hope programmers use that advice. the advice is to set up the settings on first run of the application.
     
  14. doktornotor

    doktornotor Registered Member

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    Re: Friendly request: why is NOD32 on my PC?

    Similar type of comments bring nothing useful to the discussion, please keep those directed to /dev/null in future.

    Yeah, except that it keeps prompting for pretty much any install out there, if you keep screaming fire all the time then no fire brigade arrives when you actually really need it.

    No, it's not. It's actually lack of MS understanding for the fact that their OS alone is just useless without applications getting installed. Everyone installs tens of apps on a fresh box. Try to do this task under a limited account. You'll not only get the never-ending UAC nag screens but you'll have to type an administrator password every time it prompts you. This has nothing to do with usability, this is plain horrible design. At that point, half of the users get so pissed off that they turn this obnoxious nagging feature off, muttering something about *censored* MS - and never look back.

    Yeah, thanks but I'll rather rely on those third-party tools that tend to provide me with relevant warnings when there's something actually suspicious and which include some useful information about the action to make a decision, not on UAC uniform prompt which pops-up everytime your run some installer and tells you nothing about the actions it's trying to do. "Windows needs your permission to continue" is a bad joke for making decisions. And even the most noisy third-party tools tend to have features like install mode and "remember this" checkbox, unlike UAC.
     
  15. MrBrian

    MrBrian Registered Member

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    Some interesting information from a Microsoft Windows 7 blog:

     
  16. Mike2008_427R

    Mike2008_427R Registered Member

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